Coronavirus - CoVID-19 - Part 3 - Arizona is kinda open now

[TheLegend]

One thing maybe not being talked about too much but the shutdowns were underway by the people and localities long before states did it. Obviously not total shutdowns but quite a lot, I was out there and the roads were pretty damn quiet before anything was all that official. Likewise people started going back out before states lifted them. I posted weeks ago some articles showing all the location data that this was happening.

The shutdown debate is kinda dumb at this point because the reality is almost everywhere save a few choice places are in fact going to give it a go right now already. Not 100%, not even 50% in some cases. But it's already happening.

My observations were similar. Except we also never saw completely deserted streets like you would see in other areas.

Just a couple of weeks prior to the governor “opening things up” the uptick in traffic was noticeable. People were either figuring out you could get around in a reasonably safe manor (social distancing and all that) or they just didn’t care anymore.

 

[RemoAZ]

More traffic sucks but seeing so many people ALONE in their cars wearing masks continues to crack me up. I wonder if it was the news or the internet that told them that was a good idea. If there was a chart showing the common sense and intelligence of the average human being over time, we'd definitely be on a steep decline.

 

[SniperHF]

Speaking of traffic, if y'all are driving around STOP DRIVING LIKE IT'S APRIL HOLY SHIT. I've seen so much dumb crap on the road the last 3 days.

You can't do 85 in rush hour anymore slow the f*** down. I saw a car peel out through 3 lanes on the 10 yesterday and hook left into the median because it couldn't stop fast enough for a back up.

 

[RemoAZ]

Speaking of traffic, if y'all are driving around STOP DRIVING LIKE IT'S APRIL HOLY SHIT. I've seen so much dumb crap on the road the last 3 days.

You can't do 85 in rush hour anymore slow the f*** down. I saw a car peel out through 3 lanes on the 10 yesterday and hook left into the median because it couldn't stop fast enough for a back up.

My gas mileage was down to 14.2 mpg because there were no revenue collectors out with their radar guns. Now that I have to drive the speed limit again, I'm up to 16.4. Didn't realize speed made that much of a difference.

 

[Sinurgy]

COVID is not a hoax, but what the experts have told us is, just like all this data that they have used to panic the public. Maybe hoax is the wrong word, should have said something much stronger.

The experts are not the problem, it's those that take experts findings and twist them to fit whatever agenda they're pushing.

 

[MIGs Dog]

The experts are not the problem, it's those that take experts findings and twist them to fit whatever agenda they're pushing.

A pandemic needs many experts in many fields. Even within the medical "expert" arena we've seen a wide range of advice on mask wearing. I'm not talking YouTube wackos, but actual national health organizations have varied considerably on the subject. Besides consulting experts in medicine and infectious disease, politicians should also consult experts in economics, sociology, psychology, agriculture, business, and public health. A medical experts advice on how to stop the spread of a virus might be 100% correct, but they may not understand the 2nd and 3rd order effects of policy decisions.

 

[XX]

Okay, so if they announce today that they’ve found the cure, and it’s just a shot of vinegar, and you’re cured. All fear goes away immediately. The virus itself is no longer a concern at all. Doesn’t economic recovery still require more?

The economy expands and contracts regardless of the virus. Prior to this, it was already on track for a recession. That's the nature of capitalism.

Even if the US didn't mandate a shutdown, most places would have voluntarily. Economic activity was always going to be depressed, even for solely domestic business. It would be a contractionary environment without states or the federal government lifting a finger.

Nobody killed the world economy by shutting down for 8 weeks. Corporations that were already on their way to dying or riding the knife edge will be pruned away, and someone else will take their place. This isn't like 08 - banks are not illiquid and the housing market didn't crash. If you glance at the markets, they're already over it.

Short term pain that isn't systemic (like a virus) is where a competent government should step in and shine, like in Canada. But we've so far had 50 different responses, a $1,200 check and a clownshoes "loan" bonanza with no oversight. Not exactly impressive.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Nobody killed the world economy by shutting down for 8 weeks.

I'm aware of all the jokes about the dismal science. Economists have a poor forecast track record, but the consensus prior to March was not calling for a recession.

The forced shutdowns absolutely crashed the global economy.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Why a wide variety of experts should be consulted before making radical policy decisions.

 

[MIGs Dog]

More on the suicide story.

"We’ve seen a year’s worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks. It’s time to end the state shutdown." - Dr. Mike deBoisblanc, head of trauma at John Muir Medical Center

Suicide & Coronavirus -- California Doctor Calls for End to Lockdown due “Unprecedented” Spike in Suicide Attempts | National Review

 

[MIGs Dog]

Good article on past pandemics and the economic consequences of lockdowns.

Why Didn't the 1958 and 1918 Pandemics Destroy the Economy? Hint: It's the Lockdowns | Ryan McMaken

 

[Jakey53]

The experts are not the problem, it's those that take experts findings and twist them to fit whatever agenda they're pushing.

What? The so called experts have been twisting everything from day one. That's the problem. The experts panicked the public and still are. All these models and data they are talking about aren't worth the paper they are written on. You can't believe anything they say, nothing. The experts have cried wolf once to often. People should stop watching TV and start living their life like they were doing before COVID. That of course will be hard for the ones who lost their jobs or their businesses because of the experts.

 

[Jakey53]

Why a wide variety of experts should be consulted before making radical policy decisions.

Yup, just one of a number of reasons they say the cure will be greater than the cause.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

More traffic sucks but seeing so many people ALONE in their cars wearing masks continues to crack me up. I wonder if it was the news or the internet that told them that was a good idea. If there was a chart showing the common sense and intelligence of the average human being over time, we'd definitely be on a steep decline.

Makes me laugh too, but they are few and far between, not the average.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

My gas mileage was down to 14.2 mpg because there were no revenue collectors out with their radar guns. Now that I have to drive the speed limit again, I'm up to 16.4. Didn't realize speed made that much of a difference.

Now THAT’S average!

 

[Coyotedroppings]

What? The so called experts have been twisting everything from day one. That's the problem. The experts panicked the public and still are. All these models and data they are talking about aren't worth the paper they are written on. You can't believe anything they say, nothing. The experts have cried wolf once to often. People should stop watching TV and start living their life like they were doing before COVID. That of course will be hard for the ones who lost their jobs or their businesses because of the experts.

Sadly they fooled Trump as well, his greatest error to date.

 

[MIGs Dog]

"Nursing home" sounds like a relatively safe place to be. You know, people are there to "nurse" you. Families might have been better off taking grandma home and putting her up in the basement.

 

[_Del_]

https://nypost.com/2020/05/22/no-coronavirus-catastrophes-after-three-southern-states-re-open/

 

[_Del_]

Nobody killed the world economy by shutting down for 8 weeks.

Weird, because I don't remember you saying that the lockdown wasn't going to hurt the economy before... What I remember was you saying I was an asshole for caring more about my 401k than people's lives... Shouldn't you have just said, "the economy already collapsed. We were always going to have a massive spike of 40 million unemployed and sudden economic contraction anyway" back then?

I'm sure that'll be the new talking point though. It'll be "The economy already sucked. So what" on one side of the political spectrum, and "Shutting down air travel saved millions of lives" on the other , and the one thing we can be sure of is that none of the people responsible for the terrible self-inflicted wounds via hysteria and terrible policy will ever be held accountable because everyone will be cheering for their tribe.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Good article on past pandemics and the economic consequences of lockdowns.

Why Didn't the 1958 and 1918 Pandemics Destroy the Economy? Hint: It's the Lockdowns | Ryan McMaken

Come on. This is from a libertarian think tank. Data For Progress is a think tank on the other end of the political spectrum. Jeez. "Data" for "Progress". Data must be public and uncorrupted. All too often our politicians make decisions and then try to massage data to fit their policy choices.

Florida's DeSantis, Arizona's Ducey, Trumpy and Cuomo are all doing this. Florida manipulates data. Arizona withholds vital data so as to make it very difficult to find a true Ri or even R0. Trump, well, the stuff coming out of his mouth is just nuts. Cuomo hides nursing home data, which to me is particularly shameful.

I understand that policy direction is a political action. It still has to be based upon clear and unsullied data. The anticipated cost in increased infection and death due to COVID-19 for any given policy should be clear and uncontroversial, be it opening public gatherings, church openings or store or barber shop openings. The anticipated costs, economic and social, in not implementing particular opening policies should also be clear and uncontroversial.

The data to make informed decisions is out there. It should be unaltered and made public. The debate should be over which costs are we willing to pay and which are we not. That is where politics and philosophy should reign supreme, not in shading, corrupting or delegitimizing data.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Come on. This is from a libertarian think tank. Data For Progress is a think tank on the other end of the political spectrum. Jeez. "Data" for "Progress". Data must be public and uncorrupted. All too often our politicians make decisions and then try to massage data to fit their policy choices.

Florida's DeSantis, Arizona's Ducey, Trumpy and Cuomo are all doing this. Florida manipulates data. Arizona withholds vital data so as to make it very difficult to find a true Ri or even R0. Trump, well, the stuff coming out of his mouth is just nuts. Cuomo hides nursing home data, which to me is particularly shameful.

I understand that policy direction is a political action. It still has to be based upon clear and unsullied data. The anticipated cost in increased infection and death due to COVID-19 for any given policy should be clear and uncontroversial, be it opening public gatherings, church openings or store or barber shop openings. The anticipated costs, economic and social, in not implementing particular opening policies should also be clear and uncontroversial.

The data to make informed decisions is out there. It should be unaltered and made public. The debate should be over which costs are we willing to pay and which are we not. That is where politics and philosophy should reign supreme, not in shading, corrupting or delegitimizing data.

Mises Institute is a proponent for Austrian economic theory.

If you are implying that they are biased, show me an organization that isn't.

All humans are biased. It's an inherent part of our psyche.

 

[Jakey53]

Sadly they fooled Trump as well, his greatest error to date.

Yep, but he had no choice, and I'm not sure he wanted to believe them, but he had to. He's not a doctor and he had to listen to the people or the so called experts in this case. He knows now that he was sold a bunch of BS and that is why he took swift action against the WHO.

 

[Jakey53]

Come on. This is from a libertarian think tank. Data For Progress is a think tank on the other end of the political spectrum. Jeez. "Data" for "Progress". Data must be public and uncorrupted. All too often our politicians make decisions and then try to massage data to fit their policy choices.

Florida's DeSantis, Arizona's Ducey, Trumpy and Cuomo are all doing this. Florida manipulates data. Arizona withholds vital data so as to make it very difficult to find a true Ri or even R0. Trump, well, the stuff coming out of his mouth is just nuts. Cuomo hides nursing home data, which to me is particularly shameful.

I understand that policy direction is a political action. It still has to be based upon clear and unsullied data. The anticipated cost in increased infection and death due to COVID-19 for any given policy should be clear and uncontroversial, be it opening public gatherings, church openings or store or barber shop openings. The anticipated costs, economic and social, in not implementing particular opening policies should also be clear and uncontroversial.

The data to make informed decisions is out there. It should be unaltered and made public. The debate should be over which costs are we willing to pay and which are we not. That is where politics and philosophy should reign supreme, not in shading, corrupting or delegitimizing data.

We don't have true data to make informed decisions. That's the problem. Everything is a moving target. One day it's this, the next day it's that. The only true data we are going to get from COVID will be unemployment and BK's. The health care system is full of corrupt people who are in this for the money, not for human safety. This was all started by China and they got the result they wanted. The only debate we should have is how do we fix the corrupt health organizations that let us down. WHO should be told to go pound sand.

 

[MIGs Dog]

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[Bonsai Tree]

... The health care system is full of corrupt people who are in this for the money, not for human safety. This was all started by China and they got the result they wanted. The only debate we should have is how do we fix the corrupt health organizations that let us down. WHO should be told to go pound sand.

Horse shit and Horse shit again.
The health care system is no more corrupt than any other industry, probably less due to the very high level of regulation and oversight. If you don't like corruption, you have a chance to kick it out of the White House in November. I never thought I'd see a WH more corrupt than Clinton or Carter, but the Trump White House clearly takes the cake.
China has never, never been known to cut off its nose to spite its own face. The toll on their economy and population in terms of sickness and death is a price China would never pay just to cripple the West. China sold the WHO and president Trump, by the way (check out his January comments to the press which were so pro-president Xi.) a bill of goods and the WHO bought it until it was too late. Previous work by the WHO has been exemplary, particularly in the fight against polio, onchocerciasis, and ebola.