Speculation: Copp's future?

[Joe Hallenback]

here's the thing. the decision was made. Copp wasn't signed to an extension and exposed when he should have been. as a result, Apples wasn't protected and is gone. Now we have Copp who we can't afford really now or in the future, and a hole when he leaves us as an UFA. sure we could sign and trade....but I still don't see enough value for another team to go after in that scenario. because Copp will want based on a skewed year, more than he is worth...and he'll probably get close to that on the FA market.....so again the decision WAS made...and it was a bad one.

Its likely the value for Appleton and the value for Copp where not close. You shop both and make a decision on who to expose.

 

[gojetsgo]

here's the thing. the decision was made. Copp wasn't signed to an extension and exposed when he should have been. as a result, Apples wasn't protected and is gone. Now we have Copp who we can't afford really now or in the future, and a hole when he leaves us as an UFA. sure we could sign and trade....but I still don't see enough value for another team to go after in that scenario. because Copp will want based on a skewed year, more than he is worth...and he'll probably get close to that on the FA market.....so again the decision WAS made...and it was a bad one.

all the things you just listed could be reasons for seattle not to take him, if we exposed him over appleton we might have lost demelo instead. also you can't just force a player to sign an extension if we signed copp earlier it would be for way to much money

 

[Krauser]

Well now, maybe Chevy had advanced knowledge of the salary cap increasing one million. That might make it feasible to fit both Copp and Pionk in.

Edit NvM that was for the 2022-2023 season.....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Jets do barely squeeze under the cap this year, the extra million in cap space next year would make it easier to use Heinola, Gustafsson and others who'll earn bonuses in 2021-22 that would count against next year's cap as overages.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Its likely the value for Appleton and the value for Copp where not close. You shop both and make a decision on who to expose.

Are you suggesting both were shopped and Copp was protected because he drew better offers? If so, we should have accepted the best offer and protected Apples. Unless the best offer for Copp was still just peanuts.

 

[KingBogo]

Fact.

He doesn't base his assessments entirely on advanced stats. He doesn't talk down to people who disagree with him. He respectfully explains his assessments to people who question him. And I'm pretty sure he has played the game at a fairly high level. Though that last isn't a very significant thing.

He makes his living analyzing hockey. He is an acknowledged expert in the field. He also watches hockey for fun because he loves the game. And from getting to know him here, he seems like an all around pretty nice guy.

What’s with the PR post? Why don’t we leave it at talking hockey? We can all judge posts for ourselves.

 

[Hunter368]

Are you suggesting both were shopped and Copp was protected because he drew better offers? If so, we should have accepted the best offer and protected Apples. Unless the best offer for Copp was still just peanuts.

Are you basing your opinion partly on the fact of having the benefit of hindsight now that you know we landed two top 4 D who are eating up cap space or would of you protected Apples and traded Copp just on “hope” that we could land two top 4 D eating up cap space and thus making it hard to sign Copp.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Are you suggesting both were shopped and Copp was protected because he drew better offers? If so, we should have accepted the best offer and protected Apples. Unless the best offer for Copp was still just peanuts.

I would guess they shopped both. One was getting better offers and one wasn't and let the other go in the expansion draft. I would also guess they shopped DeMelo as well and where not afraid to lose him.

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make a deal with Seattle but it sounds like Francis was being a hard ass

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

What’s with the PR post? Why don’t we leave it at talking hockey? We can all judge posts for ourselves.

Responding to one poster's ill informed attack on Garrett, who is not always here to defend himself. It wasn't a post disagreeing with Garrett. It was personal and insulting. I chose not to ignore it.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Are you basing your opinion partly on the fact of having the benefit of hindsight now that you know we landed two top 4 D who are eating up cap space or would of you protected Apples and traded Copp just on “hope” that we could land two top 4 D eating up cap space and thus making it hard to sign Copp.

Fair question.

I'm basing it on the assumption that Copp is not long for Wpg anyway and therefore I would rather have kept Appleton. Also assuming that Seattle would have taken Copp over DeMelo.

Those assumptions are obviously open to question, but they are the basis for my post.

They say "never assume", but in the absence of information, assumptions are what we are left with.

 

[Bob E]

Was hoping for an earlier date for Copp. This could drag out a bit longer.

 

[Skidooboy]

Still don't see a scenario where you keep the guy with less talent, less upside, less cap control and expose Appleton.

we very much know exactly what Andrew Copp is.

He's a 200' guy who never makes mistakes(according to PoMo)is great on the Defensive side of the puck, but doesn't have much finishing ability, grit, or speed.

 

[Buffdog]

here's the thing. the decision was made. Copp wasn't signed to an extension and exposed when he should have been. as a result, Apples wasn't protected and is gone. Now we have Copp who we can't afford really now or in the future, and a hole when he leaves us as an UFA. sure we could sign and trade....but I still don't see enough value for another team to go after in that scenario. because Copp will want based on a skewed year, more than he is worth...and he'll probably get close to that on the FA market.....so again the decision WAS made...and it was a bad one.

Had Copp been extended at an AAV acceptable go him (5M range), we wouldn't have been able to aquire Dillon and/or Schmidt.

I like copp, and think he's a valuable utility forward. That said, if he's the piece we needed to sacrifice to upgrade our D, then I'm OK with it

In a perfect world, we would have lost copl to Seattle installed of Appleton, but I guess that wasn't an option

 

[KingBogo]

Was hoping for an earlier date for Copp. This could drag out a bit longer.

I’m glad Pionk’s date is first and early. We need to get his contract done.

 

[scelaton]

Still don't see a scenario where you keep the guy with less talent, less upside, less cap control and expose Appleton.

we very much know exactly what Andrew Copp is.

He's a 200' guy who never makes mistakes(according to PoMo)is great on the Defensive side of the puck, but doesn't have much finishing ability, grit, or speed.

I don't think 'we' all do.

Copp is worth $4.5 M AAV on a long-term deal based on his recent productivity and comparables around the league. Added to that is his leadership ability and intangibles to teams like Detroit. That is the value as a trade chip that he has to the Jets.

Appleton did not have nearly that value in trade, so they allowed him to be snatched by Seattle and kept the player with the higher value. across the league. Best case scenario is that we can afford Copp on a team-friendly deal. If he is not interested, redeem his value in trade.

I think we will appreciated the asset management by the end of the month.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I would guess they shopped both. One was getting better offers and one wasn't and let the other go in the expansion draft. I would also guess they shopped DeMelo as well and where not afraid to lose him.

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make a deal with Seattle but it sounds like Francis was being a hard ass

I would think they would have a good enough take on the relative values of Copp and Appleton themselves, without having to do that. DeMelo might be a little trickier to judge.

Francis' conduct of the whole expansion draft was strange. It is hard to see what his strategy was. I assume he would have taken Copp if exposed, but with the way he did things, who knows?

 

[Skidooboy]

I don't think 'we' all do.

Copp is worth $4.5 M AAV on a long-term deal barecent productivity and comparables around the league. Added to that is his leadership ability and intangibles to teams like Detroit. That is the value as a trade chip that he has to the Jets.

Appleton did not have nearly that value in trade, so they allowed him to be snatched by Seattle and kept the player with the higher value. across the league. Best case scenario is that we can afford Copp on a team-friendly deal. If he is not interested, redeem his value in trade.

I think we will appreciated the asset management by the end of the month.

Again.
we can’t afford Copp at 4.5-5
Not long term. Not for what his scoring is. And he’s not taking less unless the arbitrator makes him.
He’s not gonna sign short term and rob himself of a year or two of UFA money….. so where does that leave us? Arbitration and then Copp is gone for nothing….or we trade him. As an upcoming UFA on a arbitration Beal he’s worth what? A sixth at the deadline?Either way he’s gone for very little and we lost a prospect too

All this cop love and nobody’s talking about the fact that he basically disappeared in the playoffs when #55 was sitting.
That was his opportunity to step up and say hey I can be the guy hey I deserve top six and big money.. That this years stats were not a freak…… And he disappeared.


So yeah I’ll stand by my statement. We should’ve signed Copp’s to a dinky one-year extension at 4 1/2 million to 5,000,000 he wants, exposed him let him have a lovely time in Seattle and kept Appleton.

 

[gojetsgo]

Again.
we can’t afford Copp at 4.5-5
Not long term. Not for what his scoring is. And he’s not taking less unless the arbitrator makes him.
He’s not gonna sign short term and rob himself of a year or two of UFA money….. so where does that leave us? Arbitration and then Copp is gone for nothing….or we trade him. As an upcoming UFA on a arbitration Beal he’s worth what? A sixth at the deadline?Either way he’s gone for very little and we lost a prospect too

All this cop love and nobody’s talking about the fact that he basically disappeared in the playoffs when #55 was sitting.
That was his opportunity to step up and say hey I can be the guy hey I deserve top six and big money.. That this years stats were not a freak…… And he disappeared.


So yeah I’ll stand by my statement. We should’ve signed Copp’s to a dinky one-year extension at 4 1/2 million to 5,000,000 he wants, exposed him let him have a lovely time in Seattle and kept Appleton.

a 6th at the deadline? yea he's getting alot more than that.... If we gave cop a 1 year 4.5-5 million dollar contract seattle would 100% take demelo instead....

 

[Skidooboy]

a 6th at the deadline? yea he's getting alot more than that.... If we gave cop a 1 year 4.5-5 million dollar contract seattle would 100% take demelo instead....

You think an player on a one year deal, an arbitration contract at that, who is about to become an UFA., just as his career peaks is worth more than a sixth at the deadline? With no Guarantee of an extension?
What are you giving up to get that rental asset?

I’m not that sad if I se Demo go.

The fact DeMello wasn’t taken, the fact that even the Jets now want to spot him in that 5-6 spot, should tell you exactly what DeMello is worth. He’s a 5-6 guy on a good team. Why everyone is so in love with him I can’t figure out. I wasn’t impressed with him at all last year even in the playoffs I thought he was OK at best. Sure it’s a player I would like on the team…. But he’s not a key.

 

[gojetsgo]

You think an player on a one year deal, an arbitration contract at that, who is about to become an UFA., just as his career peaks is worth more than a sixth at the deadline? With no Guarantee of an extension?
What are you giving up to get that rental asset?

I’m not that sad if I se Demo go.

The fact DeMello wasn’t taken, the fact that even the Jets now want to spot him in that 5-6 spot, should tell you exactly what DeMello is worth. He’s a 5-6 guy on a good team. Why everyone is so in love with him I can’t figure out. I wasn’t impressed with him at all last year even in the playoffs I thought he was OK at best. Sure it’s a player I would like on the team…. But he’s not a key.

1000% copp even on a 1 year deal is worth more than a 6th, unless you overpay him for that 1 year which you seem to have wanted....

 

[Skidooboy]

1000% copp even on a 1 year deal is worth more than a 6th, unless you overpay him for that 1 year which you seem to have wanted....

Tell me what you would offer for cop at the trade deadline on a one-year expiring contract where he’s about to turn UFA. Can you tell me what he’s worth.

 

[gojetsgo]

Tell me what you would offer for cop at the trade deadline on a one-year expiring contract where he’s about to turn UFA. Can you tell me what he’s worth.

easily get a 2nd for him at the deadline

 

[untouchable21]

1000x yes. Apples over Copp every single time....I don't know how we f***ed this up so bad.

It was probably known that Seattle preferred their selection from Winnipeg in this order...

Appleton
DeMelo
Copp

Thus they would have lost DeMelo had Appleton been protected. Then Chevy would have been crapped on because DeMelo was not protected.

If Francis wasn’t so stubborn to negotiate with, maybe a deal could have been made for them to select Copp, but not at the cost of a 1st and a 3rd. Chevy said screw it, take Appleton.

 

[Oilpeg]

Tell me what you would offer for cop at the trade deadline on a one-year expiring contract where he’s about to turn UFA. Can you tell me what he’s worth.

I don't understand your argument. Older, more expensive players go for a 1st plus a prospect at the deadline every year...Foligno had 16 points in 42 game for Columbus and the return was a 1st and a 4th at the trade deadline. Eric Staal got a 3rd and a 5th and he had 10 points in 32 games at the deadline. Copp is surely better than both of those players...a 1st would not be out of the question if he has a decent year.

 

[Tommigun]

It was probably known that Seattle preferred their selection from Winnipeg in this order...

Appleton
DeMelo
Copp

Thus they would have lost DeMelo had Appleton been protected. Then Chevy would have been crapped on because DeMelo was not protected.

If Francis wasn’t so stubborn to negotiate with, maybe a deal could have been made for them to select Copp, but not at the cost of a 1st and a 3rd. Chevy said screw it, take Appleton.

Nah… I’m 99% sure it would have been

Stanley
Copp
Appleton
Any expiring AHL player contract
DeMelo

 

[10Ducky10]

Copp wpuld get you a 2nd on a bad day...probably a small add to a late 1st at the TD.
I think Chevy signs him for around 12m over 3 years. That or 4.25m for one year.
Not sure about Pionk but I would give him 1 x 4.25m and an agreement that I sign him to a 6 x 6.5m extension right after Christmas.