Columbus will "Not be the same team" in 2016/2017

[blahblah]

We have a stat that can help you with that! It's called A/60, I'm sure you'll love it.

So I just bothered to look again.

I know you decided that you were on a mission and that you wanted to pick out a stat that favored you. I'm not going to bother with A/60 and primary assists, it's cherry picking.

His 29 assists last season were.... 106th in the league. Old man Spezza beat him out last season and has crushed his assist totals in the last 4 seasons by a pretty wide margin. His 34 the previous season was a pedestrian 69th in the league. Sure there are D that eat up more ice time and we'll get better overall totals.

Since you took into account a few seasons, you probably aren't account for some players that were injured and you certainly aren't taking into account some of the younger players that just entered the league such as McKinnon - who beat Duchene's assist totals in 30 less games.

There are a quite a few centers that superior to Duchene and if you look at his performance in context of history you'll quickly realize that, while good, he's just a solid top line center. Do we really think that he's in the same league as Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Stamkos? In the context of a career he doesn't even hold a candle to the old man Spezza that I referenced earlier. We won't even discuss someone like Datsyuk. Even Jeff Carter's overall totals are on par, if not slighter better, than his over the past two seasons.

It has seemed like a while since Duchene's back to back almost PPG seasons and one of them was prorated a bit due to only playing 40 some odd games. I'm assuming what you have going for you is that you think that Duchene is going to break out like Datsyuk did at this point in his career. Possible but unlikely since Duchene has already played 7 seasons.

 

[major major]

What would you ask for Karlsson back from Ana?

I don't know. A late first? Really I doubt he gets moved though. The Jackets don't have that many young centers in the system. If you have a spot for him now as a 3C and value him accordingly then we can probably swing a deal - the Jackets would be better off with Jenner at 3C than Karlsson.

 

[major major]

So I just bothered to look again.

I know you decided that you were on a mission and that you wanted to pick out a stat that favored you. I'm not going to bother with A/60 and primary assists, it's cherry picking.

His 29 assists last season were.... 106th in the league. Old man Spezza beat him out last season and has crushed his assist totals in the last 4 seasons by a pretty wide margin. His 34 the previous season was a pedestrian 69th in the league. Sure there are D that eat up more ice time and we'll get better overall totals.

Since you took into account a few seasons, you probably aren't account for some players that were injured and you certainly aren't taking into account some of the younger players that just entered the league such as McKinnon - who beat Duchene's assist totals in 30 less games.

There are a quite a few centers that superior to Duchene and if you look at his performance in context of history you'll quickly realize that, while good, he's just a solid top line center. Do we really think that he's in the same league as Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Stamkos? In the context of a career he doesn't even hold a candle to the old man Spezza that I referenced earlier. We won't even discuss someone like Datsyuk. Even Jeff Carter's overall totals are on par, if not slighter better, than his over the past two seasons.

It has seemed like a while since Duchene's back to back almost PPG seasons and one of them was prorated a bit due to only playing 40 some odd games. I'm assuming what you have going for you is that you think that Duchene is going to break out like Datsyuk did at this point in his career. Possible but unlikely since Duchene has already played 7 seasons.

A/60 was a direct response to "Not many assists for his ice time". I don't know if I'm on a mission but you lobbed one over the plate. And if someone can make assertions with words then I can respond with actual stats that correspond with such words.

The stats I presented were over 4 entire years, so I hardly think that qualifies as cherrypicking. The two top seasons were 1-2 so you can argue they should be weighted less, but even then Duchene comes out looking like a #1C at 5 on 5.

The real difference in stats here, which often comes up in our discussions, is that I judge 5 on 5 separately from PP and PK. It's nice if you can get a guy who can do both but if you end up with two different players, each elite in their own department, then that's just as well to me. There are always PP specialists out there that come cheap, who can sometimes put up gaudy numbers.

Or if you just straight up prefer PP success over 5 on 5, then look for RNH, who is the better PP ace. He should also come cheaper.

 

[theD86]

Rumors on Foligno continue.......http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/r...could-be-dealt-to-open-cap-space-in-columbus/

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Rumors on Foligno continue.......http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/r...could-be-dealt-to-open-cap-space-in-columbus/

It's Garrioch. He's a crock of ****

 

[Cowumbus]

Here me out... I think it is in the best long term to deal Foligno before Hartnell.

Foligno contract will continue to get worse as he ages, and lasts much longer. Hartnell will give similar production for cheaper. Also when Hartnell contract is up in 2/3 years we will have plenty of prospects to take Hartnell/Foligno spot.

Why pay 5.5 mill for 5 years to our 3LW (maybe lower at then end of that contract)
When we can trade for assets now, and pay for Hartnell to be our 3LW for cheaper and shorter?

2016
Saad Jenner Bjork/Pulji
Calvert Dubinksy Atkinson
Hartnell Wennberg Bjork/Pulji
Rychel Karlsson Anderson

2018
Saad Wennberg/Jenner Bjork/Pulji
Rychel Jenner Bjork/Pulji
**** Dubinsky Atkinson
Calvert Karlsson *****

The **** could easily be filled by two of Hannakainen/Milano/Anderson/Bittner/Zaar/Sedlak/draft picks in future, for way less than 5.5 mill.

We don't need to be paying Foligno that type of money that long when soon we will have better and cheaper players coming out of the system.


Foligno could net us a nice return, and shed cap. Also shed a NMC. While Hartnell can be a great 2/3 LW option until our young guys are ready for that duty.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Compared as players it is not much of a question who raises the youth and establishes twin towers height of play in the offensive zone. Who would you rather have when they cross the play-off line and play to win, hoping to smash a brick by brick.

Maximum ice hockey value short and long term would be trade Foligno.

 

[alphafox]

Here me out... I think it is in the best long term to deal Foligno before Hartnell.

Foligno contract will continue to get worse as he ages, and lasts much longer. Hartnell will give similar production for cheaper. Also when Hartnell contract is up in 2/3 years we will have plenty of prospects to take Hartnell/Foligno spot.

Why pay 5.5 mill for 5 years to our 3LW (maybe lower at then end of that contract)
When we can trade for assets now, and pay for Hartnell to be our 3LW for cheaper and shorter?

2016
Saad Jenner Bjork/Pulji
Calvert Dubinksy Atkinson
Hartnell Wennberg Bjork/Pulji
Rychel Karlsson Anderson

2018
Saad Wennberg/Jenner Bjork/Pulji
Rychel Jenner Bjork/Pulji
**** Dubinsky Atkinson
Calvert Karlsson *****

The **** could easily be filled by two of Hannakainen/Milano/Anderson/Bittner/Zaar/Sedlak/draft picks in future, for way less than 5.5 mill.

We don't need to be paying Foligno that type of money that long when soon we will have better and cheaper players coming out of the system.


Foligno could net us a nice return, and shed cap. Also shed a NMC. While Hartnell can be a great 2/3 LW option until our young guys are ready for that duty.

Personally I would deal both if we can find buyers at any sort of a decent price; Clearing room for Rychel, Bjorkstrand and Anderson.

Saad-Wennberg-Bjork
Rychel-Dubi-Cam
Calvert-Jenner-Pulju
Cambell-Karlsson-Anderson

Save 10 million in Cap and our lineup looks at least as good as last year, and that is before factoring in any additional assets from the trades or internal growth.

 

[CBJx614]

I dont want to trade Foligno yet. If we can find a trade partner (Nashville?) for Hartsy than as much as i'd hate to do it, you make that move. If you cant find a trade partner for Tyuts, then you buy him out.

Theres the cap space to sign both Jonesy and Wild Bill. Give Foligno a chance to rebound, if he has a "meh" season than you look to ship him out. If hes anything like he was 2 seasons ago than you hang on to him.

Saad-Wennberg-Bjorkstrand
Foligno-Dubinsky-Atkinson
Calvert-Jenner-Puljujarvi
Rychel/Anderson-Karlsson-[insert choice of player]

or

Saad-Wennberg-Bjorkstrand
Jenner-Dubinsky-Atkinson
Calvert-Karlsson-Puljujarvi
Rychel-Campbell-Anderson

Trading Foligno all but guarantees Jenner will be staying at wing, keeping Foligno gives us the needed depth on LW to compete. None of our prospects are ready for full time top 6 LW duties and as is we're counting on rookies on the right side (Pulju and Bjorkstrand)

 

[Viqsi]

Personally I would deal both if we can find buyers at any sort of a decent price; Clearing room for Rychel, Bjorkstrand and Anderson.

...sure, let's dump two of our best possession guys (on a team that has frequent problems with same) in favor of rookies. That sounds like a "great" plan.

 

[Cowumbus]

The longer we wait on Foligno the lower his value will be IMO. He is not even close to a 70pt player and won't reach that again.

@BoonesJenner

Saad Jenner Atkinson
Calvert/Rychel Dubinksy Puljujarvi
Hartnell Wennberg Bjorkstrand
Calvert/Rychel Karlsson Anderson

You are just helping my point. Why pay 5.5 mill to a 2LW who will be a 3LW in a year, when we can have Hartnell do it for cheaper? And Foligno would give us more assets back!

I guess it depend on if you think one of Milano/Rychel/Zaar/Bitner etc can be better than Foligno.. Which I do

 

[niflheim]

Sorry, I can't "trade" this happy family
Captain hadn't good year, but he worked like bull every shift, he played for us.. and, and he is our Captain. I don't know guys.. I'm not sure

 

[CBJx614]

The longer we wait on Foligno the lower his value will be IMO. He is not even close to a 70pt player and won't reach that again.

@BoonesJenner

Saad Jenner Atkinson
Calvert/Rychel Dubinksy Puljujarvi
Hartnell Wennberg Bjorkstrand
Calvert/Rychel Karlsson Anderson

You are just helping my point. Why pay 5.5 mill to a 2LW who will be a 3LW in a year, when we can have Hartnell do it for cheaper? And Foligno would give us more assets back!

I guess it depend on if you think one of Milano/Rychel/Zaar/Bitner etc can be better than Foligno.. Which I do

You're entire point is around the fact that you think Foligno is on the decline. Which I dont see as the case. And you assume Foligno will get full value, which he wont after last season. You have to give him time to rebound if you want close to full value for Foligno. The FO cant wait another season to to make a decision.

 

[Cowumbus]

You're entire point is around the fact that you think Foligno is on the decline. Which I dont see as the case. And you assume Foligno will get full value, which he wont after last season. You have to give him time to rebound if you want close to full value for Foligno. The FO cant wait another season to to make a decision.

I don't think he's on the decline right now, but will be very soon. And to be quite frank i think if people take off their homer glasses he is just a semi overpaid second liner. So what will he be when he declines? If 40 points is prime Foligno....

The fact of the matter is
1 Foligno has more value than Hartnell in a trade
2 We need to move cap and a NMC
3 We have NHL ready prospects with no space for them

With all of this considered why not trade Foligno to a team needing a top6 LW, get valuable assets and cap space, then move forward? I just think Folignos money could have been spent and could be spent better elsewhere. However if Foligno were around 4 mill per he would be okay.

 

[CBJx614]

I don't think he's on the decline right now, but will be very soon. And to be quite frank i think if people take off their homer glasses he is just a semi overpaid second liner. So what will he be when he declines? If 40 points is prime Foligno....

The fact of the matter is
1 Foligno has more value than Hartnell in a trade
2 We need to move cap and a NMC
3 We have NHL ready prospects with no space for them

With all of this considered why not trade Foligno to a team needing a top6 LW, get valuable assets and cap space, then move forward? I just think Folignos money could have been spent and could be spent better elsewhere. However if Foligno were around 4 mill per he would be okay.

"Hey Nick I know we just named you Captain, and gave that nice contract, but is there any chance you can waive that NMC for us, that'd be swell"

That is not a conversation I want to have, and if you dont get the value for him than you've likely disgruntled your captain. Hartnell has already waived his NMC, Foligno IMO is more of a heart and soul guy than Hartsy and doesnt take stupid penalties. I firmly believe Foligno, if healthy will be a 50pt player for most of his contract.

Also by trading away Foligno you're taking away your credibility(JK's not Vogeezys) by naming him captain and giving him a nice contract, telling him to earn it and then immediately trading him away. Players arent going to have much respect or desire to play for someone like that.

 

[Crede777]

Probably just goes along with Torts' "nobody is safe" thing.

Foligno has complete control over whether he actually gets dealt or not.

 

[major major]

One bad year, and you dump your captain, who is essential to the team in so many ways?

 

[JacketsDavid]

One bad year, and you dump your captain, who is essential to the team in so many ways?

Brick by Brick

 

[Samkow]

One bad year, and you dump your captain, who is essential to the team in so many ways?

Counterpoint: One really really really good year and a 2nd/3rd line player is irreplaceable?

I don't agree that Foligno's value is at his lowest (he's not as good as he was in 14-15 but he had a terrible year last year) but somebody's going to have to go.

 

[CBJx614]

AND IN A SUPRISE TRADE SETH JONES AND 3OA ARE PACKAGED FOR CONNOR MCDAVID




but really, I dont see Foligno getting traded. Sure Jarmo said "even gretzky was traded" implying nobody is safe, but trading Foligno away just hurts his own reputation and credibility.

 

[Crede777]

AND IN A SUPRISE TRADE SETH JONES AND 3OA ARE PACKAGED FOR CONNOR MCDAVID




but really, I dont see Foligno getting traded. Sure Jarmo said "even gretzky was traded" implying nobody is safe, but trading Foligno away just hurts his own reputation and credibility.

3 OA + Hartnell + Johnson + Sonny Milano for Evgeni Malkin.

Then, despite the elbow surgery, they realize Malkin's contract wasn't insured and he never plays again.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Sure Jarmo said "even gretzky was traded" implying nobody is safe, but trading Foligno away just hurts his own reputation and credibility.

By signing a geezer to an extension who was going to be lost without a new deal? The captaincy affair was bit of a mistake but nothing that can't be fixed under fiery Tortorella and the rain to fall. I would understand if he was brought in but he was already in.

Sure Foligno has some use and he has potential second line forward impact incoming even in next season but through the eyes of play he is the first geezer you can tear away from the ethos of this team, without anything breaking in team hierarchy or collective input. Not exactly the highest sign of leadership.

 

[Crede777]

By signing a geezer to an extension who was going to be lost without a new deal?

They want to assurance that this is their guy. The same geezer who played in the World Championships...

Barkov junior was injured in the play-offs. But it was a lockout season. Laine was big part of his team also. These geezers are franchise level talents.

 

[blahblah]

but really, I dont see Foligno getting traded. Sure Jarmo said "even gretzky was traded" implying nobody is safe, but trading Foligno away just hurts his own reputation and credibility.

First - your joke was fairly lame.

Secondly, I doubt JK is that emotionally invested in some odd perception that his ego could be bruised by trading Foligno.

 

[CBJx614]

First - your joke was fairly lame.

Im glad you think so

Secondly, I doubt JK is that emotionally invested in some odd perception that his ego could be bruised by trading Foligno.

Who said anything about his ego?

Management decided Foligno was going to be the C, and they decided to invest their money into him. Trading him the very next season without a doubt hurts his credibility and reputation. If players think your word doesnt mean **** why would they want to resign with you?