Player Discussion Colin White - C/RW

[Burrowsaurus]

I think every GM drafting at that spot hopes to get a little more....

yes agreed especially in a draft that stacked,

 

[Sweatred]

White has been an excellent player at every level of hockey that hes played at. And hes played at the highest level possible for a US born hockey player his entire career, and is always a front line player for his team.

He obviously didnt do himself any favors at all last year with some clearly shakey play on his part, it has been a rough start between him and DJ Smith if were being honest. But we've already seen that White can be a great complimentary top 6 player at the NHL level. Stone is an amazing player and obviously helped him in a big way, thats true. And no I dont ever see White being the primary driver on an scoring line either.

But were going to have several players with high end talent and skill much like Stone in our lineup in the not so distant future, and White has all the tools to be the perfect high end (top 6) digger type player that allows teams to spread out their offense.

The amount of doubt and shade I see thrown his way is staggering tbh. There is doubt that he can be a top 9 player? Come on, really? This isnt Colin Greening we are talking about here. White is 10 times the player at the same age as that, which is about the same level of respect that he gets in retrospect.

Your comments about White are common with nearly all late first round picks and only some of them develop into decent NHL players. White will be 23 next year and if he doesn’t want “shade and doubt” around him he should force his way into our top 6. White wasn’t “great” in 2018-19 and he wasn’t excellent in the AHL, World Championships, or the NHL. This idea that he has been great every where he played ends in NCAA. He was outplayed by a group of cast off’s last year (Ennis, Brown, Duclair) and Batherson is primed to step past him leaving him fighting to be the 4th best RW on a poor team. Abramov may challenge him for that spot soon.

I don’t see any skills that suggest he is a “digger”. He doesn’t hit anyone, he is physically one of our weakest forwards, and he is a incredible easy to knock off the puck and elude not to mention he doesn’t pass, handle or protect the puck well. Perhaps these skills will develop.

I have as much optimism for White as I do Chaplik. They are both decent players, one is tougher & stronger and the other is faster. White has a little more Boom/Bust to his game with his speed but if he doesn’t get stronger he has no useful roll in the bottom 6. Chaplik has high probability of deserving a 4C+ roll.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

 

[Sweatred]

Always waiting to hear or see he has committed to some strength training ... other than the video games we didn’t get much.

 

[DrSense]

Your comments about White are common with nearly all late first round picks and only some of them develop into decent NHL players. White will be 23 next year and if he doesn’t want “shade and doubt” around him he should force his way into our top 6. White wasn’t “great” in 2018-19 and he wasn’t excellent in the AHL, World Championships, or the NHL. This idea that he has been great every where he played ends in NCAA. He was outplayed by a group of cast off’s last year (Ennis, Brown, Duclair) and Batherson is primed to step past him leaving him fighting to be the 4th best RW on a poor team. Abramov may challenge him for that spot soon.

I don’t see any skills that suggest he is a “digger”. He doesn’t hit anyone, he is physically one of our weakest forwards, and he is a incredible easy to knock off the puck and elude not to mention he doesn’t pass, handle or protect the puck well. Perhaps these skills will develop.

I have as much optimism for White as I do Chaplik. They are both decent players, one is tougher & stronger and the other is faster. White has a little more Boom/Bust to his game with his speed but if he doesn’t get stronger he has no useful roll in the bottom 6. Chaplik has high probability of deserving a 4C+ roll.

Well, for guy with 40+ point pace the two seasons prior, I think he has at least showed something in terms of ability to play a decent complimentary role in the top 9. And while I don't disagree with the opportunity to turn Chlapik into a good checking line center, the reality is he is the same age as White and has a long way to go before he has proven he can at least be decent in the top 9 like White has. I admit he hasn't been given the same opportunity, but he also been surpassed by other younger prospects on the team along the way, so that's not White's problem. Chlapik never dominated or asserted himself to demand more ice time - it's been more a steady and slow progression. Regardless of Chlapik though, at the end of the day, White was decent as a complimentary player to an elite forward linemate already, so I wouldn't dismiss that. We are planning to have a few more elite forwards in the years ahead and need players to play with them. White has at least shown he deserves a look in that role.

The reality is fans are way too skewed to "what have you done for me lately" and notoriously impatient with players under 25. GM's do this to because of job pressure of needing win sooner at times, which hurts their teams too, but thankfully GM's are generally more patient.

I think we all certainly acknowledge in the case of White though, we probably didn't sign him to the right contract at the right time. He may turn out to be a solid player in our top 9, and that contract might STILL be a bad one. Thankfully it is not the contract that will hold back the team in anyway. I also think he is now a natural to expose in the expansion draft with that contract, which gives us more protection flexibility for other young players. We're going to have to protect some young forwards like Tkachuk, Batherson and Brown already, and might want to protect a few other guys on better contracts ahead of White, including Chlapik, Balcers, Abramov, Duclair, Tierney or Brown. I'm sure we'll expose some of those guys depending on their year, but might want to protect a few who breakout.

 

[aragorn]

If Ottawa ends up with three very good top 9 centres & White isn't one of them, that at the very least he either moves to RW where he also has to win a top 9 spot or they move him for picks or assets. It's not like White is a terrible hockey player, there are a lot worse in the league, hell, there are a lot worse on this team. IMO he will take over Pageau's role as the defensive centre on the team, playing the PK a lot & chipping in offensively where he can.

In a full season he might be a 40 to 50 pt player, with better offensive players on the team he might get some better matchups creating another good line. I think the Sens have the luxury of developing White into a good NHL player for a few yrs before they need to make any decisions on him. By then he should be a much more valuable player either defensively or IMO all around good player like C. Brown, a coaches dream.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

When a player signs a big contract, expectations go up. If White was on a bridge deal, he would get significantly less crap for this bad season.

One season won't define him, and he still has potential to be a very good 40-50 point two-way center. Maybe more.

The contract looks really bad now because of the COVID-19 situation. Even if he bounces back, the cap is rumored to be flat for a few years. When he signed it, the cap was probably projected to push 90 million very early into the contract. Look at what Pageau just got from the Islanders, now imagine that adjusted for a 90+ million cap 3 years from now. That's the kind of situation the Senators were hedging against.

Maybe the extended off season will work in his favor in terms of cultivating mass.

 

[Sweatred]

Well, for guy with 40+ point pace the two seasons prior, I think he has at least showed something in terms of ability to play a decent complimentary role in the top 9. And while I don't disagree with the opportunity to turn Chlapik into a good checking line center, the reality is he is the same age as White and has a long way to go before he has proven he can at least be decent in the top 9 like White has. I admit he hasn't been given the same opportunity, but he also been surpassed by other younger prospects on the team along the way, so that's not White's problem. Chlapik never dominated or asserted himself to demand more ice time - it's been more a steady and slow progression. Regardless of Chlapik though, at the end of the day, White was decent as a complimentary player to an elite forward linemate already, so I wouldn't dismiss that. We are planning to have a few more elite forwards in the years ahead and need players to play with them. White has at least shown he deserves a look in that role.

The reality is fans are way too skewed to "what have you done for me lately" and notoriously impatient with players under 25. GM's do this to because of job pressure of needing win sooner at times, which hurts their teams too, but thankfully GM's are generally more patient.

I think we all certainly acknowledge in the case of White though, we probably didn't sign him to the right contract at the right time. He may turn out to be a solid player in our top 9, and that contract might STILL be a bad one. Thankfully it is not the contract that will hold back the team in anyway. I also think he is now a natural to expose in the expansion draft with that contract, which gives us more protection flexibility for other young players. We're going to have to protect some young forwards like Tkachuk, Batherson and Brown already, and might want to protect a few other guys on better contracts ahead of White, including Chlapik, Balcers, Abramov, Duclair, Tierney or Brown. I'm sure we'll expose some of those guys depending on their year, but might want to protect a few who breakout.

I think those points are all realistic and fair. The one difference that I have to this (and most current views) is that I never thought White was that good in 2018-19. I don't see a player who "slumped" or "regressed" in 2020. I saw a player who had tonnes of holes (same weaknesses, give aways, soft puck control etc) in his game in 18-19 and got some cheap points along the way to mask his developmental holes on a team hoping to rekindle 2017. IMO in 19-20 we saw the true CW where he didn't really have a place to hide and ended up highly exposed. I'm not really trying to argue whether he was "good" or not in 18-19. People can have their own opinions. My main point is we've probably rushed him to the NHL and over paid him which has served to block his developmental opportunities. Maybe we have a player in a slump who rebounds but I think it is more than likely we have a player that wasn't properly developed to begin with and now has $28.5 million reasons to not take development that serious.

Now we face the option of developing/saving him while we are trying to develop other prospects at the same level/position.

 

[Peptic Balcers]

Man Colin White sounds like an absolute dummy

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Man Colin White sounds like an absolute dummy

Ever since he was drafted I've always thought that when he spoke, he sounds like a bit of a bonehead/dumb dumb.

Fine player and nice guy but maybe not the brightest bulb in the room. Is what it is.

 

[Micklebot]

White had a sub replacement level season last year and was really... really weak at protecting, handling, shooting, and distributing the puck ...

Let’s not line up the most skilled rookie our franchise has ever had with what amounts to our 6th best Center last year.

I am willing to reconsider if White looks great in training camp.

So, I've cross posted this to a more relevant thread as not to spam the lineup thread;

I think we all agree White had a disappointing season and did not live up to his contract, where I'm going to disagree is the claim that he was sub replacement level, I just don't think the numbers really support that.

In terms of pts/60 at 5v5, he was 248th out of 371 in forwards with 400+ mins, that's ahead of guys like Kessel, Zajac, Kejci, Zacha, E.Kane, Radulov, Foligno, and only a hair behind Pageau,

In terms of on ice stats, among forwards with 400+ mins 5v5:
GF% rel +4.37 was 4th on the team
xGF% rel of +3,45 was 2nd on the team
SCF% rel of +2.4 was 3rd on the team
HDCF% rel of +1.24 was 4th on the team

We all expect more from a player with a contract like his, no doubt he was a disappointment this year, but sub replacement level suggests that a substantial portion of the league and our team is also sub-replacement level.

 

[bert]

So, I've cross posted this to a more relevant thread as not to spam the lineup thread;

I think we all agree White had a disappointing season and did not live up to his contract, where I'm going to disagree is the claim that he was sub replacement level, I just don't think the numbers really support that.

In terms of pts/60 at 5v5, he was 248th out of 371 in forwards with 400+ mins, that's ahead of guys like Kessel, Zajac, Kejci, Zacha, E.Kane, Radulov, Foligno, and only a hair behind Pageau,

In terms of on ice stats, among forwards with 400+ mins 5v5:
GF% rel +4.37 was 4th on the team
xGF% rel of +3,45 was 2nd on the team
SCF% rel of +2.4 was 3rd on the team
HDCF% rel of +1.24 was 4th on the team

We all expect more from a player with a contract like his, no doubt he was a disappointment this year, but sub replacement level suggests that a substantial portion of the league and our team is also sub-replacement level.

Your level headed consistency that is always backed up with proof and stats is greatly appreciated Micklebot.

 

[Sweatred]

So, I've cross posted this to a more relevant thread as not to spam the lineup thread;

I think we all agree White had a disappointing season and did not live up to his contract, where I'm going to disagree is the claim that he was sub replacement level, I just don't think the numbers really support that.

In terms of pts/60 at 5v5, he was 248th out of 371 in forwards with 400+ mins, that's ahead of guys like Kessel, Zajac, Kejci, Zacha, E.Kane, Radulov, Foligno, and only a hair behind Pageau,

In terms of on ice stats, among forwards with 400+ mins 5v5:
GF% rel +4.37 was 4th on the team
xGF% rel of +3,45 was 2nd on the team
SCF% rel of +2.4 was 3rd on the team
HDCF% rel of +1.24 was 4th on the team

We all expect more from a player with a contract like his, no doubt he was a disappointment this year, but sub replacement level suggests that a substantial portion of the league and our team is also sub-replacement level.

I enjoy the debate and looking for positive signs with the player. Regardless of the few posted stats he was sooooooo bad and ineffective on the ice. I suggest he was below replacement level because because he was less effective than what I consider a replacement level player to be which is an Ennis/Chaplik/Boedker/Arti,

We were a brutal team last year and I think you could justify his as the 5th best RW/C in the org last year making him a top 15 type player . We can debate some of these rankings but when your part of a discussion about if you are a 4th or 5th line player on a bottom team in hockey you are a sub replacement player.

RW
Duclair, Brown, Ennis, Ryan, Batherson, White, Abramov etx.

C
Pager, CT, Arti, Norris, Chaplik/White, Brown

 

[Micklebot]

I enjoy the debate and looking for positive signs with the player. Regardless of the few posted stats he was sooooooo bad and ineffective on the ice. I suggest he was below replacement level because because he was less effective than what I consider a replacement level player to be which is an Ennis/Chaplik/Boedker/Arti,

We were a brutal team last year and I think you could justify his as the 5th best RW/C in the org last year making him a top 15 type player . We can debate some of these rankings but when your part of a discussion about if you are a 4th or 5th line player on a bottom team in hockey you are a sub replacement player.

RW
Duclair, Brown, Ennis, Ryan, Batherson, White, Abramov etx.

C
Pager, CT, Arti, Norris, Chaplik/White, Brown

Well, he was ahead of Brown, Anisimov, Norris, Balcers, Namesnikov, Batherson Boedker and Chlapik in pts/60, and the underlying on ice stats as I posted prior were positive.

Not saying he was great, he was bad relative to his contract, I just think sub-replacement level is hyperbolic to the extreme.

 

[Sweatred]

Well, he was ahead of Brown, Anisimov, Norris, Balcers, Namesnikov, Batherson Boedker and Chlapik in pts/60, and the underlying on ice stats as I posted prior were positive.

Not saying he was great, he was bad relative to his contract, I just think sub-replacement level is hyperbolic to the extreme.

I throw “sub replacement” around pretty loosely at White. I’ll accept that it is a little “hyperbolic” . On the other hand I often suggest White’s game/value is close to Chaplik... a little ahead or a little behind depending on your presence for offense/defense. I think that is more than fair and Chaplik is currently a replacement player.

Looking at PT/60 White was given more PP time than most the players you mentioned . We also saw two different Batherson’s. The Batherson we saw at the end of the year looked much more effective than the start. I’m not sure what Brown you are talking about but Connor Brown is unfortunately way better than Colin White. Boedker and even Balcers are nearly irrelevant to the org so arguing White vs them is a waste of time on so many levels.

Colin White should be better than CBrown/Ennis types and he isn’t.

 

[DrSense]

Colin White should be better than CBrown/Ennis types and he isn’t.

Well, those two guys were two of our top scorers, so if White's better than them, he's basically alongside Tkachuk as one of our top scorers.

And P/60 is ES only, so a good stat. Batherson got a lot of points on the PP, so his stats were a bit skewed (but he made our PP better, so he certainly deserved to be on it).

The fact is White was overpaid last year and a disappointment - no one is denying that. But let's not go too far in suggesting he was worse than other depth players. His ES icetime and linemates were pretty bad, although again, there is some merit to where he ended up on the lines.

 

[Sweatred]

Well, those two guys were two of our top scorers, so if White's better than them, he's basically alongside Tkachuk as one of our top scorers.

And P/60 is ES only, so a good stat. Batherson got a lot of points on the PP, so his stats were a bit skewed (but he made our PP better, so he certainly deserved to be on it).

The fact is White was overpaid last year and a disappointment - no one is denying that. But let's not go too far in suggesting he was worse than other depth players. His ES icetime and linemates were pretty bad, although again, there is some merit to where he ended up on the lines.

Thanks for clarification on pts/60.
Where do you see him in our lineup ? I see him projecting as our 4th best RW next year (Duc, Brown, Batherson, Ryan/ White). I’m not sure how far Abramov is behind. He had a strong, quiet, below radar year last year.

 

[DrSense]

Thanks for clarification on pts/60.
Where do you see him in our lineup ? I see him projecting as our 4th best RW next year (Duc, Brown, Batherson, Ryan/ White). I’m not sure how far Abramov is behind. He had a strong, quiet, below radar year last year.

White will likely play a few different roles next year, depending on his play.

Best case for White is he settles in alongside one of L Brown or Norris as their right winger who also steps into the dot for them at times to take the pressure off their being rookie pivots (Nick Paul can do the same as a natural left winger but who is good on faceoffs). This is a bonus White brings to a scoring line as a RWer. Hopefully he gets better at faceoffs, so it is really seen as a plus. But he shows he can be part of a winger duo that makes life easier for a rookie center. If White is lucky, this also means he has a really good LWer such as Duclair, Tkachuk or perhaps a high profile rookie, and this is clearly one of our top 3 lines at ES, and one that sees a decent amount of Offensive zone starts. And a bonus, if these elite young linemates of White, whom the team covets, really like playing with White and say so.

The second best option for White is he settles in on one of the top 3 lines that happens to get more defensive responsibility, often lined up against the other teams top unit. This would likely be with Tierney, who is our best center, but could be Anisimov, and perhaps Paul on the left side. Or perhaps even Formeton, despite being a rookie (he might get a look early in this role). Stats may not be as great on this line as option A, but he'll have proven he can at least be a go-to checking line forward who gets used to playing against the other teams best.

Worst case for White, he bounces around the bottom 6 with little special teams time, and sees a revolving door of linemates, including the likes of Chlapik, Paul, Balcers, Hawrlyuk, Abramov and whomever is in the dog house. This is basically where he finished last year, so that would be a bad sign for White to end next year stuck back in the same kind of spot.

But if White can gel with a few more offensively elite players while also improving his FO % and getting back to the 40 point level, I think that would be a great year for White and a good sign he can be part of the top 9 longer term.

 

[Sweatred]

White will likely play a few different roles next year, depending on his play.

Best case for White is he settles in alongside one of L Brown or Norris as their right winger who also steps into the dot for them at times to take the pressure off their being rookie pivots (Nick Paul can do the same as a natural left winger but who is good on faceoffs). This is a bonus White brings to a scoring line as a RWer. Hopefully he gets better at faceoffs, so it is really seen as a plus. But he shows he can be part of a winger duo that makes life easier for a rookie center. If White is lucky, this also means he has a really good LWer such as Duclair, Tkachuk or perhaps a high profile rookie, and this is clearly one of our top 3 lines at ES, and one that sees a decent amount of Offensive zone starts. And a bonus, if these elite young linemates of White, whom the team covets, really like playing with White and say so.

The second best option for White is he settles in on one of the top 3 lines that happens to get more defensive responsibility, often lined up against the other teams top unit. This would likely be with Tierney, who is our best center, but could be Anisimov, and perhaps Paul on the left side. Or perhaps even Formeton, despite being a rookie (he might get a look early in this role). Stats may not be as great on this line as option A, but he'll have proven he can at least be a go-to checking line forward who gets used to playing against the other teams best.

Worst case for White, he bounces around the bottom 6 with little special teams time, and sees a revolving door of linemates, including the likes of Chlapik, Paul, Balcers, Hawrlyuk, Abramov and whomever is in the dog house. This is basically where he finished last year, so that would be a bad sign for White to end next year stuck back in the same kind of spot.

But if White can gel with a few more offensively elite players while also improving his FO % and getting back to the 40 point level, I think that would be a great year for White and a good sign he can be part of the top 9 longer term.

He has to get stronger and more creative with the puck. He was a line killer regardless of what line he was on. I’ve never seen a player “fail to execute” so many plays. Whether it was a breakout pass, skating through the neutral zone, cycling in the offensive zone it seemed he turned the puck over, fumbled the puck , or failed to execute anything productive.

If I was a rookie I would want him a million miles away from me if he is playing the same was as last year.

More interesting that bashing him is debating how to use him day 1 in camp. Does he slot back in as the 1C between Brady and Duclair or is he forced to work his way up and prove his is better then Norris, Brown etc. His entire career with the Sens has been lawnmowed, I expect we see more of the same.

My guess is we see him paired with a successful NHL forward while some of the other kids have to “claw” their way into the roster.

He acknowledged the other day he was working out a bit. On camera he still looks thin with a little added COVID+15 Lbs. He won’t be able to cheat a strength gain And he has been off for two months. I fear we may see “type” of player in the fall. He already has his money. Moving to a exciting expansion team like Seattle may be an incentive for him.

 

[Sensung]

So glad Dorion signed this player longterm.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Imagine arguing that Colin White isn't overpaid.

 

[GCK]

Imagine arguing that Colin White isn't overpaid.

I can’t argue either way. He has player 61 games under this contract. Even for this board that is a pretty small sample.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

I can’t argue either way. He has player 61 games under this contract. Even for this board that is a pretty small sample.

Too small a sample to get paid almost $5M a season until 2025, I agree.

 

[Korpse]

Imagine arguing that Colin White isn't overpaid.

Nobody was arguing that point.

 

[DueDiligence]

Imagine arguing that Colin White isn't overpaid.

He is overpaid but he is not worth giving up on yet.