Player Discussion Colin White - C/RW

[JD1]

Imagine arguing that Colin White isn't overpaid.

Imagine arguing it BEFORE he signed that deal? That the team shouldn't sign long term with that player.

The Colin White situation is kind of interesting in terms of highlighting the life of an armchair GM.

if you go back and read the thread where he signed, the consensus opinion of this board was that it was a good deal.

One injury driven season later, the consensus is that he is now overpaid.

Reality is that a real life GM has to live with the deal.

White needs to have a solid season. I almost hesitate to say a bounce back season because I think his drop in performance was at first injury related and then he needed to scratch his way back up the lineup.

His contract is not outrageous but he also didn't have the season anyone expected. If he does post a decent season then the contract starts to look better. If he doesn't post a good season it will be hard to move the contract but easy to buy your way out of it.

I just get a kick out of the sentiment changes. I was against signing him to a long term deal and that was a minority opinion. I now find myself again in the minority attributing his down year to injury. Where are all of the White fan boys from last summer? Shouldn't some be talking up his cause?

 

[Sweatred]

I can’t argue either way. He has player 61 games under this contract. Even for this board that is a pretty small sample.

He put up a sub replacement season last year which is valued less than $700 000. So by my count he has about $3.3 million of negative value built up so far on the contract. Lots of time to make that back ... Hopefully we get a $4 million type season out of him next year.

 

[bert]

Imagine arguing it BEFORE he signed that deal? That the team shouldn't sign long term with that player.

The Colin White situation is kind of interesting in terms of highlighting the life of an armchair GM.

if you go back and read the thread where he signed, the consensus opinion of this board was that it was a good deal.

One injury driven season later, the consensus is that he is now overpaid.

Reality is that a real life GM has to live with the deal.

White needs to have a solid season. I almost hesitate to say a bounce back season because I think his drop in performance was at first injury related and then he needed to scratch his way back up the lineup.

His contract is not outrageous but he also didn't have the season anyone expected. If he does post a decent season then the contract starts to look better. If he doesn't post a good season it will be hard to move the contract but easy to buy your way out of it.

I just get a kick out of the sentiment changes. I was against signing him to a long term deal and that was a minority opinion. I now find myself again in the minority attributing his down year to injury. Where are all of the White fan boys from last summer? Shouldn't some be talking up his cause?

Anyone that thinks he is overpaid probably doesnt understand contracts and the salary cap. His production that season compared to the rest of the league was barely overpayment. Then when you consider it was an escalating deal that was back loaded what he was actually getting paid was a direct correlation with his actual real time production. He had just finished 5th in rookie scoring and they were buying years later on in the deal as they expect him to naturally progress. Obviously he struggled last season that doesnt mean his previous 4 that the contract was based on makes them non existant. I dont bother arguing about this anymore because there is no point. If you're a sens fan and you think giving up on a player in the middle of a rebuild is a good idea and are worried about his salary when the teams 30 million below the cap floor then you arent applying any logic. You'd think looking at past sens flourish that the team gave up on too early would be enough, but alas here we are.

 

[GCK]

He put up a sub replacement season last year which is valued less than $700 000. So by my count he has about $3.3 million of negative value built up so far on the contract. Lots of time to make that back ... Hopefully we get a $4 million type season out of him next year.

Was there an issue with not being able to keep/acquire/sign another player because of White’s contract ? The contract had no impact to the roster to my knowledge so the only negative value is to Eugene’s wallet. There is no need to make up the so called 3.3 negative value that you suggested because it has no impact on anything moving forward.

 

[JD1]

He put up a sub replacement season last year which is valued less than $700 000. So by my count he has about $3.3 million of negative value built up so far on the contract. Lots of time to make that back ... Hopefully we get a $4 million type season out of him next year.

at some point Sweatred i think you should belly up to the bar and state whether you believe that White's down year was in part attributed to injury. Your entire line about xGAR and negative value doesn't seem to consider that he dealt with and played thru a mobility injury. Is this unprecedented in the NHL? No, not at all. Two more prominent recent Ottawa situations off the of my head are Turris with the gumby ankle injury and Bobby Ryan trying to play thru an abdominal injury. Both situations had significant impacts on the productivity of those players.

So....let's be clear: in your opinion, was White's down year attributed to injury? If not, why not? and if not, what's your explanation for his stats when you splice his season in half? because the stats were significantly different. These are simple questions and given your post history on White, how about some simple answers

I am also going to say....in my 15 year history on this board....if White has a solid season next year, you're going to need to eat more crow than any poster I have ever seen.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

COLIN WHITE SETS NEW STANDARD FOR FUTILITY

In an unprecedented turn of events a young NHL player has had a poor sophomore season. The startling revelation that Colin White, 23, had a worse season than his rookie year with the Ottawa Senators has been exposed by a plucky HF boards poster. This bombshell seems to have been previously covered up by the HF boards group but is now being brought into the public eye.

The previously unheard of slump in a sophomore season is all the more shocking because of White's situation in Ottawa during the last year. Despite enjoying optimal conditions such as playing on a terrible team, having changed linemates and roles on the team, and dealing with a whole new coaching staff, White was still able to become the only player in the history of the NHL to struggle during his second year. This dubious accomplishment was made even more unlikely by the fact that White suffered from a hip flexor and groin injury. Historically this condition has led to dramatically increased production among NHL players.

With his historic season in the rear view mirror White, and his fans, can only look forward to his third NHL campaign and wonder what new twists will emerge in this story. Will he show up to games in soccer gear? Can he score on his own net at a goal per game pace? Will he manage to kill a season ticket holder with an errant zone clearance? It seems that nothing, in our increasingly troubled world, can be considered impossible for the Sens master saboteur.

We ask that people respect the pain, sorrow and grief of Colin White's victims during this time, specifically people who spend more than 4 hours per day on Capfriendly, Eugene Melnyk's accounting intern and fans of random AHL prospects.

 

[JD1]

COLIN WHITE SETS NEW STANDARD FOR FUTILITY

In an unprecedented turn of events a young NHL player has had a poor sophomore season. The startling revelation that Colin White, 23, had a worse season than his rookie year with the Ottawa Senators has been exposed by a plucky HF boards poster. This bombshell seems to have been previously covered up by the HF boards group but is now being brought into the public eye.

The previously unheard of slump in a sophomore season is all the more shocking because of White's situation in Ottawa during the last year. Despite enjoying optimal conditions such as playing on a terrible team, having changed linemates and roles on the team, and dealing with a whole new coaching staff, White was still able to become the only player in the history of the NHL to struggle during his second year. This dubious accomplishment was made even more unlikely by the fact that White suffered from a hip flexor and groin injury. Historically this condition has led to dramatically increased production among NHL players.

With his historic season in the rear view mirror White, and his fans, can only look forward to his third NHL campaign and wonder what new twists will emerge in this story. Will he show up to games in soccer gear? Can he score on his own net at a goal per game pace? Will he manage to kill a season ticket holder with an errant zone clearance? It seems that nothing, in our increasingly troubled world, can be considered impossible for the Sens master saboteur.

We ask that people respect the pain, sorrow and grief of Colin White's victims during this time, specifically people who spend more than 4 hours per day on Capfriendly, Eugene Melnyk's accounting intern and fans of random AHL prospects.

this made my day

 

[aragorn]

Remember when White broke his arm blocking a shot, the guy has balls & will step in front of some pretty hard shooters & shots. I think he is going to be fine, but he will be fighting with Norris in future regarding whether he plays 2nd or 3rd line. My guess is 3rd line & he replaces Pageau's role, but If Ottawa gets Byfield they could move him to RW or more likely trade him in a few yrs.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

COLIN WHITE SETS NEW STANDARD FOR FUTILITY

In an unprecedented turn of events a young NHL player has had a poor sophomore season. The startling revelation that Colin White, 23, had a worse season than his rookie year with the Ottawa Senators has been exposed by a plucky HF boards poster. This bombshell seems to have been previously covered up by the HF boards group but is now being brought into the public eye.

The previously unheard of slump in a sophomore season is all the more shocking because of White's situation in Ottawa during the last year. Despite enjoying optimal conditions such as playing on a terrible team, having changed linemates and roles on the team, and dealing with a whole new coaching staff, White was still able to become the only player in the history of the NHL to struggle during his second year. This dubious accomplishment was made even more unlikely by the fact that White suffered from a hip flexor and groin injury. Historically this condition has led to dramatically increased production among NHL players.

With his historic season in the rear view mirror White, and his fans, can only look forward to his third NHL campaign and wonder what new twists will emerge in this story. Will he show up to games in soccer gear? Can he score on his own net at a goal per game pace? Will he manage to kill a season ticket holder with an errant zone clearance? It seems that nothing, in our increasingly troubled world, can be considered impossible for the Sens master saboteur.

We ask that people respect the pain, sorrow and grief of Colin White's victims during this time, specifically people who spend more than 4 hours per day on Capfriendly, Eugene Melnyk's accounting intern and fans of random AHL prospects.

Pretty Good.

 

[Sweatred]

Was there an issue with not being able to keep/acquire/sign another player because of White’s contract ? The contract had no impact to the roster to my knowledge so the only negative value is to Eugene’s wallet. There is no need to make up the so called 3.3 negative value that you suggested because it has no impact on anything moving forward.

Really ? You don’t think piling up Bobby Ryan and Colin White contracts impact this franchise ? That’s over 15% of their payroll that struggles to provide $2 million of value.

 

[Sweatred]

at some point Sweatred i think you should belly up to the bar and state whether you believe that White's down year was in part attributed to injury. Your entire line about xGAR and negative value doesn't seem to consider that he dealt with and played thru a mobility injury. Is this unprecedented in the NHL? No, not at all. Two more prominent recent Ottawa situations off the of my head are Turris with the gumby ankle injury and Bobby Ryan trying to play thru an abdominal injury. Both situations had significant impacts on the productivity of those players.

So....let's be clear: in your opinion, was White's down year attributed to injury? If not, why not? and if not, what's your explanation for his stats when you splice his season in half? because the stats were significantly different. These are simple questions and given your post history on White, how about some simple answers

I am also going to say....in my 15 year history on this board....if White has a solid season next year, you're going to need to eat more crow than any poster I have ever seen.

Sure ... I’ve never suggested he had a bad year because of his injury. I strongly believe he just isn’t that good. To be more fair, I think his development/progression is closer to Brown/Chaplik than say a player ready to provide $5 million of on ice value year to year.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Imagine arguing it BEFORE he signed that deal? That the team shouldn't sign long term with that player.

The Colin White situation is kind of interesting in terms of highlighting the life of an armchair GM.

if you go back and read the thread where he signed, the consensus opinion of this board was that it was a good deal.

One injury driven season later, the consensus is that he is now overpaid.

Reality is that a real life GM has to live with the deal.

White needs to have a solid season. I almost hesitate to say a bounce back season because I think his drop in performance was at first injury related and then he needed to scratch his way back up the lineup.

His contract is not outrageous but he also didn't have the season anyone expected. If he does post a decent season then the contract starts to look better. If he doesn't post a good season it will be hard to move the contract but easy to buy your way out of it.

I just get a kick out of the sentiment changes. I was against signing him to a long term deal and that was a minority opinion. I now find myself again in the minority attributing his down year to injury. Where are all of the White fan boys from last summer? Shouldn't some be talking up his cause?

I have faith that this was just a down year and he'll rebound next year. I'm sure that I share the same sentiment with many others here. What's the point in arguing with someone who brings the same bull shit in every thread? It's too time consuming and pointless. Most people (I assume) would rather just ignore it given that most of the board probably are in agreement and nobody has as much as energy as that one specific poster to keep trying to debate him (people have tried and given up).

The annoying thing is that the haters bring the noise in every thread except the actual Colin White thread and the mods don't really do anything about it.

Trade proposal thread - same guy talking about White
Prospects - same guy talking about White for no reason
Lineups - same guy talking about White's contract for some reason
Draft thread - same guy talking about how we should not draft someone like Colin White
Drake Batherson thread - probably same guy talking specifically about how he's not Colin White.

Whenever anyone suggests to move that discussion to the appropriate thread, he'll just say something stupid like "what am I doing wrong, I'm comparing him to Batherson in the Batherson thread".

It's like getting into a fight with a wall. You're probably not going to win.

 

[GCK]

Really ? You don’t think piling up Bobby Ryan and Colin White contracts impact this franchise ? That’s over 15% of their payroll that struggles to provide $2 million of value.

I don’t believe it had any impact on the roster, we still had plenty of cash to pay Hainsey.

 

[Xspyrit]

lol this debate is still going on?

I don't know if that poster realizes that we have been spending BELOW the cap floor?

lol it may be a bit untimely to be paranoing about player's salaries...

Really ? You don’t think piling up Bobby Ryan and Colin White contracts impact this franchise ? That’s over 15% of their payroll that struggles to provide $2 million of value.

And how is "value" calculated exactly?

Except last season (due to certain cirumstances that everybody know about), Bobby Ryan has provided a lot more value than $2 million per season. His worse season was by far 2015-16 but his playoff run was almost Conn Smythe worthy and pretty much redeemed himself for a poor regular season. Outside of that, no matter how biased people have been against Ryan, producing 0.55 to 0.70 PPG seasons costs a lot of $ on the UFA market.

Just one simple comparison : Charlie Coyle was extended in November 2019 by the cap conscious Bruins at 5.25 x 6 seasons

Coyle vs Ryan

2013-14 0.43 PPG vs 0.69 PPG
2014-15 0.43 PPG vs 0.69 PPG
2015-16 0.51 PPG vs 0.69 PPG
2016-17 0.68 PPG vs 0.40 PPG (but 0.79 PPG in the playoffs)
2017-18 0.56 PPG vs 0.53 PPG
2018-19 0.42 PPG vs 0.54 PPG

Not only he had a much better track record than Coyle, but Ryan only makes 2.0 more than Coyle. Yes it could be an outliner, but when you simply take a bit of time to look at contracts around the league, it is not. Players GET PAID, that's the nature of the beast, that's exactly what the NHLPA and even the owners want. If players make more money, it means they make more money too.

We make an incredible big deal about it because we might the poorest/cheapest franchise in the whole league and now we have fans totally paranoing* about Colin White 4.75 as a result

Urban Dictionary: paranoing


Signing veterans on their UFA years is costly. Maybe it comes back to bite a lot of teams in the long run, but yet teams are still ready to take that risk because they want to compete at all costs and are ready to lose a bit of money (yes losing 2 millions in value a year for a player is not a lot of money for normal sports franchises). Hello Patrick Mahomes

It's pretty normal for a business of that size to have a budget for sunk costs. I worked for Kraft foods when I was younger. If you just knew the annual budget they had for unprocessed/broken/out-of-date stock, you'd freak out lmao.

Anyway, I wonder how many times you have to repeat something on a forum to make sure that everyone know what your opinion on the subject is. I have no idea how it could be so "vital"

Breaking news : we got it the first time.

 

[DrEasy]

Stop piling on Colin White! He's 42 years old, and has played 12 years in the NHL! It's not his fault he is being used as a defensive defenseman, in a defensive-minded system!

 

[Sweatred]

I don’t believe it had any impact on the roster, we still had plenty of cash to pay Hainsey.

Overpaid players consume resources that could be allocated to other players.

You have a $12 million sitting on your table. Spending it on White and Ryan is one of the least useful ways you could allocate those funds.

We are at a low point so it is easy to shrug off $2-3 extra million spent on one player. Over the next two years the Sens payroll is going to start hey challenged. This team can’t afford to make mistakes on contracts. Smith, Dion, Ryan type deals take us years to resolve.

Ive said this 100 times and the board hive mind likes to rant about their difficult ready/not reading posts ... I don’t even mind the player, I’d be annoyed if we gave Brown21 $25 million too.

Okay, I’m going back to catching up on the 1000x posts on how great Wolanin is and whether we should draft By or Stutz.

 

[aragorn]

Really ? You don’t think piling up Bobby Ryan and Colin White contracts impact this franchise ? That’s over 15% of their payroll that struggles to provide $2 million of value.

The only guy those contracts hurt is EM & nobody else or anything else IMO. It doesn't affect attendance EM's nonsense did that & it doesn't affect the payroll since they have tons of cap space & it doesn't prevent them from making any deals. Most casual fans don't know or care what these guys make, that's more of an issue on here. The team will most likely still suck next season & I don't see a huge increase in payroll next yr either.

Most likely Tierny, Anisimov, Hawryluk, Reilly, MacArthur, Callanhan, maybe Boro & one of Anderson or Nilsson should all be gone creating a ton of cap space. The yr after Ryan's contract will be done & it will be Zaitsev's contract that we will be complaining about. I just don't see a problem with White's contract other than he is slightly overpay at the moment given what he's produced, but he has a good excuse so far with injuries.

He's still young & could easily recover from this & become a better, more productive player. And as I have said before if or when he is passed by one of the young centres they will just look to move him, trade him, bury him or buy him out. This team has a ton of experience with bad contracts, every team has & may have to find a way out of it at some point, but not right away. It's just not that big a deal to me or this team at this time IMO.

 

[Xspyrit]

Overpaid players consume resources that could be allocated to other players.

You have a $12 million sitting on your table. Spending it on White and Ryan is one of the least useful ways you could allocate those funds.

The point would be valid if we were anywhere close to contend or spend to the cap. Until then, we're not even spending to the floor and have to use LITR contracts to reach an artificial floor

Ryan's contract will expire in the near future and if Colin White can't prove to be worthy of a "middle of the line up salary" (because that's what 4.75 is nowadays), then he will get bought out, traded, buried or waived I don't know... That is IF we ever need to allocate those ressources on other players.

Those guys are NOT the reason why the Sens aren't going full force on the UFA market and sign the biggest players. I'll give you 2 hints : not a popular destination and Eugene Melnyk. The only significant UFAs we can sign are guys at the end of their careers like Kovalev, Gonchar and Hainsey, and the first 2 were under Bryan Murray, nothing says that Dorion would be able to convince that type of names.

It seems pretty simple. Now will you be able to move on? I think there's more chance than White becomes a PPG player.

/thread.

 

[Sweatred]

The only guy those contracts hurt is EM & nobody else or anything else IMO. It doesn't affect attendance EM's nonsense did that & it doesn't affect the payroll since they have tons of cap space & it doesn't prevent them from making any deals. Most casual fans don't know or care what these guys make, that's more of an issue on here. The team will most likely still suck next season & I don't see a huge increase in payroll next yr either.

Most likely Tierny, Anisimov, Hawryluk, Reilly, MacArthur, Callanhan, maybe Boro & one of Anderson or Nilsson should all be gone creating a ton of cap space. The yr after Ryan's contract will be done & it will be Zaitsev's contract that we will be complaining about. I just don't see a problem with White's contract other than he is slightly overpay at the moment given what he's produced, but he has a good excuse so far with injuries.

He's still young & could easily recover from this & become a better, more productive player. And as I have said before if or when he is passed by one of the young centres they will just look to move him, trade him, bury him or buy him out. This team has a ton of experience with bad contracts, every team has & may have to find a way out of it at some point, but not right away. It's just not that big a deal to me or this team at this time IMO.

I disagree but not need to debate it. However, How much easier would it have been to keep Mark Stone (if he would have signed) if we didn’t have to pay Ryan and White $10-12 million. I’d prefer Stone at $9 and Chaplik at $1 vs Ryan and White at $10.

 

[Sweatred]

The point would be valid if we were anywhere close to contend or spend to the cap. Until then, we're not even spending to the floor and have to use LITR contracts to reach an artificial floor

Ryan's contract will expire in the near future and if Colin White can't prove to be worthy of a "middle of the line up salary" (because that's what 4.75 is nowadays), then he will get bought out, traded, buried or waived I don't know... That is IF we ever need to allocate those ressources on other players.

Those guys are NOT the reason why the Sens aren't going full force on the UFA market and sign the biggest players. I'll give you 2 hints : not a popular destination and Eugene Melnyk. The only significant UFAs we can sign are guys at the end of their careers like Kovalev, Gonchar and Hainsey, and the first 2 were under Bryan Murray, nothing says that Dorion would be able to convince that type of names.

It seems pretty simple. Now will you be able to move on? I think there's more chance than White becomes a PPG player.

/thread.

Respectively your notion that you can’t waste money unless you are a cap team is mistaken. Secondly, you are free to move on when ever you like. You don’t even need to read this forum. There is no middle ground between our evaluations on the player when you see a pt/game player. That tells me all I need to know.

 

[GCK]

I disagree but not need to debate it. However, How much easier would it have been up keep Mark Stone (if he would have signed) if we didn’t have to pay Ryan and White $10-12 million. I’d prefer Stone at $9 and Chaplik at $1 vs Ryan and White at $10.

Mark Stone was offered term and money but decided to leave this shitshow for a chance to play for a rational owner. Good for him.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

You know the debate has gone off the rails when @aragorn is defending a player who is shorter than 6'5.

Good on ya Strider!!

 

[aragorn]

I disagree but not need to debate it. However, How much easier would it have been up keep Mark Stone (if he would have signed) if we didn’t have to pay Ryan and White $10-12 million. I’d prefer Stone at $9 and Chaplik at $1 vs Ryan and White at $10.

Me too, but it wasn't possible. IMO Stone like the others who got traded probably didn't want to go through a rebuild. Nobody wanted Ryan & I doubt there are a lot of teams after Chlapik who I also like, but is really a spare part. I think White is still young enough to be a more productive player, but what is the metric that people want. What if he becomes a terrific shutdown guy what is that worth? Most people on here fixate strictly on pts. I just think he deserves another yr to figure it out.

 

[benjiv1]

Colin White’s contract is a complete non-issue. (And if anything may have helped us extend Chabot, and possibly Tkachuk)

Until 2022 he can be bought out for 1/3 his salary, and the cap penalty would be under 900K.

If he starts producing keep him, if he doesn’t, cut him loose. Does he get overpaid between now and then, sure? But not at the expense of not being able to afford anyone else.

 

[Sweatred]

Mark Stone was offered term and money but decided to leave this shitshow for a chance to play for a rational owner. Good for him.

I agree , I’m not sure if the bonus money was the same (buy out protection) which is incredibly important to aging stars.