Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens/Yotes - Back in the win column!

[Ogrezilla]

You can't allow a coach to run roughshod over the organization. Sully does not get to choose his personal, he is supposed to coach what he has.

Sully's behavior is arrogant and smug. I will try to keep my unhappiness moving forward to a minimal as not to spread negativity on a daily basis. But I will silently root for Sully to fail in an epic manner to usher his sorry but out of Pittsburgh.

FYI, a lot of his attitude is very typical of the behavior of where he is from.

I think you may be blowing things a bit out of proportion You make it sound like there's a laundry list of guys Sully has refused to use properly.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Don’t count on it...Mackey was praising the fourth line this morning....lol...since he’s often an organizational mouthpiece, they’re probably still infatuated with that crappy line...

Analysis: Five more reasons the Penguins found their game

 

[Coastal Kev]

I think you may be blowing things a bit out of proportion

Maybe. Time will tell won't it?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Maybe. Time will tell won't it?

yep, I guess it will.

 

[vodeni]

Wilson, not even going to waste my time there.

They think ZAR is a future top six guy. It’s frustrating as hell to watch. I’ve literally followed their farm since the mid 90s when I started getting interested in prospects as a kid.

Not once... has a bad skater in all of that time, become a legit top six guy. Not a single guy in 25+ years. I could rail off a list of guys that would make people want to cry. Now skating is more important than ever in this league.

ZAR has nice hands around the net. That’s it. He’s Mango Salsa come back to haunt us. So he will surely pot some goals and that will be enough to convince Sullivan to move him into the top six and he will bog his line down, occasionally capitalizing on loose change.

You want a legit guy, ya, should have been Angello. Can skate, plays a much heavier game than ZAR, has sneaky skills... and while I’m not sure he’s a top six guy, I wouldn’t be upset to see him up there.

I meant Wilson when I said Smith? My bad. I still don't understand why would Sully work against what he preaches...

 

[Tom Hanks]

I meant Wilson when I said Smith? My bad. I still don't understand why would Sully work against what he preaches...

Sully isn’t calling these guys up though. He has major input on guys going down but how much influence does he really have of who comes up. Wouldn’t that be more the WBS coaches talking to JR?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Wilson, not even going to waste my time there.

They think ZAR is a future top six guy. It’s frustrating as hell to watch. I’ve literally followed their farm since the mid 90s when I started getting interested in prospects as a kid.

Not once... has a bad skater in all of that time, become a legit top six guy. Not a single guy in 25+ years. I could rail off a list of guys that would make people want to cry. Now skating is more important than ever in this league.

ZAR has nice hands around the net. That’s it. He’s Mango Salsa come back to haunt us. So he will surely pot some goals and that will be enough to convince Sullivan to move him into the top six and he will bog his line down, occasionally capitalizing on loose change.

You want a legit guy, ya, should have been Angello. Can skate, plays a much heavier game than ZAR, has sneaky skills... and while I’m not sure he’s a top six guy, I wouldn’t be upset to see him up there.

Couldn't you argue that Malone was a bad skater that became a legit top-6 guy? I don't recall Malone ever being a great skater.

 

[Gurglesons]

Because it seemed like an unnecessary "I care more about team success, stop crying about individual points" response to me simply saying it seems like Crosby isn't getting those 4 point nights like he used to in games when he "could have easily gotten 4 points".

I just mean he was instrumental in setting up four goals so I agree.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Couldn't you argue that Malone was a bad skater that became a legit top-6 guy? I don't recall Malone ever being a great skater.

Nah. I never bought the argument he was a bad skater. Not sure how people ever went there and I used to always laugh at people who said that.

Malone used to dance all over guys his rookie year and was a short handed generating machine with his feet and hands.

 

[Gurglesons]

Cullen was playing lights out hockey back then, and was able to play at the level of a third pivot. He basically carried Kuhn on his back with his playmaking and now he looks done.

There is zero creativity on that line with those three, unless Cullen makes another deal with the devil, not sure how that’s going to change.

Was Cullen really playing at the level of a third liner?

He had 5 points through 23 games in 15-16.

I think you’re remembering 16-17 which he had a relatively hot run at the beginning of the year.

Still, I think the fables of Cullen have grown around here.

He is at a .2 ppg in 13 games was around a .21 ppg through 23 in 15-16 and put up .25 ppg in the playoffs in 15-16.

I don’t know Cullen has been fine in my opinion. If you’re relying on him to carry the fourth line it’s going to disappointment, but he has been a solid utility player for the fourth line that has been great on the PK.

 

[KIRK]

Couldn't you argue that Malone was a bad skater that became a legit top-6 guy? I don't recall Malone ever being a great skater.

You could argue that Malone wasn't fast enough for it to work consistently with Sid, but he sure as **** played fast enough to be the perfect linemate for Geno.

He's the 'puck retriever' gold standard when we talk of the puck retriever - scoring winger model for Geno's ideal linemates.

 

[SEALBound]

Couldn't you argue that Malone was a bad skater that became a legit top-6 guy? I don't recall Malone ever being a great skater.

His career highlight goal is him falling down mid-stride, maintaining puck, skating mud to the goal, and scoring so...point well taken.

You could argue that Malone wasn't fast enough for it to work consistently with Sid, but he sure as **** played fast enough to be the perfect linemate for Geno.

He's the 'puck retriever' gold standard when we talk of the puck retriever - scoring winger model for Geno's ideal linemates.

How many times have we tried to recreate Malone-Malkin-Sykora? And did we ever do that? Yes. Kunitz-Malkin-Neal when Malkin went on to score 50+ and win the Art Ross and Neal netting 40 goals himself.

...but then Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis needed to be reunited and we've never tried that model again. Hags-Geno-Phil is close. ZAR-Malkin-Phil theoretically would be the closest we could get as is.

 

[KIRK]

His career highlight goal is him falling down mid-stride, maintaining puck, skating mud to the goal, and scoring so...point well taken.



How many times have we tried to recreate Malone-Malkin-Sykora? And did we ever do that? Yes. Kunitz-Malkin-Neal when Malkin went on to score 50+ and win the Art Ross and Neal netting 40 goals himself.

...but then Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis needed to be reunited and we've never tried that model again. Hags-Geno-Phil is close. ZAR-Malkin-Phil theoretically would be the closest we could get as is.

ZAR isn't Malone.

 

[SEALBound]

ZAR isn't Malone.

Didn't say he was.

 

[KIRK]

Didn't say he was.

I understand. My point was more that the model only works when the pieces are right. Saying MMM is equated by ZAR-Geno-Phil is like saying a Porsche is equated by a Nissan (or something like that ).

 

[Ugene Magic]

It should also be noted that Johnson has been playing well even before getting paired with Letang, he's now at a 6 game streak of playing good hockey. It seems like it took a little bit of an adjustment for him to get comfortable with the team, and he's more comfortable now and playing with a D partner that can ease up his responsibility. Johnson last night looked really good, especially on the powerplay.

It seemed like Johnson was really hit or miss for about the first 8 or 9 games of the season, but he has settled in recently with playing solid hockey. Johnson hasn't been so hot and cold, like he was to start the season.

Cycles.

He's still -6 on the season, and while these last few games have been relatively good, they have been only coming in 2 game spurts more often than not.

+ in only 3 games
- in only 6 games
= in only 6 games

He's still sporadic. You say good for 6 games but he's still a - player for half those 6.

Lets see if he can stretch a few more together without being a minus and be = at best and then we'll know if he has turned a corner and has settled in. If it takes playing behind Sid and beside Letang to get that out of him, cool.... but that is putting him in the best position you possibly can to shelter him. Elsewhere, he'll probably still be erratic.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Give me ZAR-Bleuger-Sprong, or give me death

Give me Zar, Johnson, Sprong.

On a team with 2 top lines this would be their 3rd.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Was Cullen really playing at the level of a third liner?

He had 5 points through 23 games in 15-16.

I think you’re remembering 16-17 which he had a relatively hot run at the beginning of the year.

Still, I think the fables of Cullen have grown around here.

He is at a .2 ppg in 13 games was around a .21 ppg through 23 in 15-16 and put up .25 ppg in the playoffs in 15-16.

I don’t know Cullen has been fine in my opinion. If you’re relying on him to carry the fourth line it’s going to disappointment, but he has been a solid utility player for the fourth line that has been great on the PK.

Are you suggesting Cullen is going to turn it around like 15-16 when he started slowly? Because he had a hell of a season once Sullivan came aboard and was producing like a third line pivot.

Cullen was constantly creating opportunities on his own that season and carrying Kuhn like I said. If you think he will suddenly find that gear again cool, but I have great doubt he will.

I’d prefer to see what TB can do in that role, because Cullen is just going to keep getting older unfortunately.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Cycles.

He's still -6 on the season, and while these last few games have been relatively good, they have been only coming in 2 game spurts more often than not.

+ in only 3 games
- in only 6 games
= in only 6 games

He's still sporadic. You say good for 6 games but he's still a - player for half those 6.

Lets see if he can stretch a few more together without being a minus and be = at best and then we'll know if he has turned a corner and has settled in. If it takes playing behind Sid and beside Letang to get that out of him, cool.... but that is putting him in the best position you possibly can to shelter him. Elsewhere, he'll probably still be erratic.

+/- is a garbage way to judge players. Come on. Players don't have control over their +/-, to judge players based on it is just asinine. This doesn't even have to do with JJ, it has to do with +/- being a garbage stat.

He's a -6 on the year because he has been getting crap goaltending when he's on the ice. Based on HockeyReference, Johnson's expected +/- is -2.5 on the year. Based on Corsica, Johnson's expected +/- is -1.35.

 

[KIRK]

Are you suggesting Cullen is going to turn it around like 15-16 when he started slowly? Because he had a hell of a season once Sullivan came aboard and was producing like a third line pivot.

Cullen was constantly creating opportunities on his own that season and carrying Kuhn like I said. If you think he will suddenly find that gear again cool, but I have great doubt he will.

I’d prefer to see what TB can do in that role, because Cullen is just going to keep getting older unfortunately.

Oh ye of little faith . . .

 

[SEALBound]

I understand. My point was more that the model only works when the pieces are right. Saying MMM is equated by ZAR-Geno-Phil is like saying a Porsche is equated by a Nissan (or something like that ).

Fair. I get that ZAR isn't Malone but I believe, given our current roster, that he would be the closest. I even acknowledged that it's only the closest. Doesn't mean I think ZAR = Malone. Technically, there's quite the gaps between Sykora, Neal, and Kessel. But given the success of Malkin with each of them, I think the model demonstrates that it can withstand a certain amount of flexibility.

 

[KIRK]

Fair. I get that ZAR isn't Malone but I believe, given our current roster, that he would be the closest. I even acknowledged that it's only the closest. Doesn't mean I think ZAR = Malone. Technically, there's quite the gaps between Sykora, Neal, and Kessel. But given the success of Malkin with each of them, I think the model demonstrates that it can withstand a certain amount of flexibility.

As I said in the cap thread, it might be time for JR to look for a winger for Geno.

They don't have the 'puck retriever' to mesh.

Phil definitely is the scorer, but I think he meshes with Geno in the same way Hossa once meshed with Sid. Two elite players together will rack up a lot of points, but it's not a natural fit.

Only problem, as I noted, is that the last time JR went shopping for a winger for Geno, he came back with Sergei Plotnikov.

 

[Ugene Magic]

+/- is a garbage way to judge players. Come on. Players don't have control over their +/-, to judge players based on it is just asinine. This doesn't even have to do with JJ, it has to do with +/- being a garbage stat.

He's a -6 on the year because he has been getting crap goaltending when he's on the ice. Based on HockeyReference, Johnson's expected +/- is -2.5 on the year. Based on Corsica, Johnson's expected +/- is -1.35.

I base this off of more than +/-, and he has been sporadic. We'll see if the trait follows suit or if he falls back into bad habits. Based on his career one is more likely, but we hope for the best. I have no issues where he plays if you get the best out of him, or anyone for that matter.

One note here, it's kind of the same like the goaltending talk here, it's a team sport, blaming one person for team/player woes is kind of dumb.

Not gonna blame Murray/De Smith if the team in front of him leave them out to dry as much as they do. Johnson does have a career mostly minus playing good/bad. He has been good/equal/bad. I'll take = all season, like that player you don't notice but doesn't hurt you, under the radar player. Unfortunately, for him, and everyone knowing him as a player, that can't happen.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I base this off of more than +/-, and he has been sporadic. We'll see if the trait follows suit or if he falls back into bad habits. Based on his career one is more likely, but we hope for the best. I have no issues where he plays if you get the best out of him, or anyone for that matter.

One note here, it's kind of the same like the goaltending talk here, it's a team sport, blaming one person for team/player woes is kind of dumb.

Not gonna blame Murray/De Smith if the team in front of him leave them out to dry as much as they do. Johnson does have a career mostly minus playing good/bad. He has been good/equal/bad. I'll take = all season, like that player you don't notice but doesn't hurt you, under the radar player. Unfortunately, for him, and everyone knowing him as a player, that can't happen.

On the goaltending talk, the team defense is responsible for hanging them out to dry as much as they have, yes. However, it's fully on Murray's shoulders for his terrible save% on those high danger chances that his team gives up. He currently has a .754 save% on high danger chances, that is legitimately horrible. He should be at about an .850-.875 on high danger chances, he's well below that. Even in Fleury's bad year in 2015-2017, he still had a .834 high danger save%. Murray is having a bad year so far this year, he's more to blame for the GA numbers than his defensemen are. They're giving up good chances, but Murray isn't stopping those chances at a rate he should be.

DeSmith is actually playing well on the year, with a high danger save% of .860 in all situations (.837 at ES), so I don't know why anyone would blame him for anything. Murray's not doing that obviously. Although it should be noted that the stats do show that the Penguins are way better defensively when DeSmith is in net than when Murray is in net.

 

[SEALBound]

As I said in the cap thread, it might be time for JR to look for a winger for Geno.

They don't have the 'puck retriever' to mesh.

Phil definitely is the scorer, but I think he meshes with Geno in the same way Hossa once meshed with Sid. Two elite players together will rack up a lot of points, but it's not a natural fit.

Only problem, as I noted, is that the last time JR went shopping for a winger for Geno, he came back with Sergei Plotnikov.

I witnessed in person, 50% of Plotnikov's career NHL points. Just wanna toss that out there.

I think Hagelin is a good winger for that line. I struggle to find a home for Hagelin if it's not with Geno. Hornqvist plays the retriever roll well. Perhaps the solution would be to get a skilled LW in the mold of Sykora/Kessel/etc if Horny is going to be glued to Geno...but there in lies another issue - we have so many line combos right now, it's tough to mix and match appropriately.

Tough to know what works...we damn well know what doesn't work. On top of that, is Sid's choice. Realistically, Jake-Sid-Horny should be the defacto first line. After that, it actually gets easy to assemble the lines. But that's not what Sid wants...and that's tough.

I always have a couple wishful thinking guys. One guy I'd love to nab is Perlini from Arizona. Made it a point to watch the Arizona game carefully. I thought Crouse and Perlini were fantastic. Crouse is coming into his own after a rough start. Perlini has speed, skill, and size. I think he could definitely have that Hagelin like impact if we could somehow bring him in.

Was disappointed in Strome a little bit. Granted, it's the 4th line but I see lots of parallels between him and Sprong. Near identical production in the NHL and AHL. Strome was just drafted a lot higher. Would be an interesting swap but I think as is, Arizona is like us with several NHL ready wingers. Of course, things could change with Dvorak when he gets back. They are fun team to monitor. They certainly have a lot of talent...at least on paper. Something I bounced around was Brassard+Sprong+pick/prospect for Strome+Perlini. Brassard give them Chucky-Stepan-Brassard down the middle and that's very respectable. Sprong slots in at wing wherever needed.

Us: Simon-Sid-Rust, Perlini-Geno-Kessel, Jake-Strome-Horny, Hags-Cullen-ZAR/Sheahan.

I could deal with that. Gets us younger and helps a lot with speed. Ideally, Strome can be the longer term 3C for us.