Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens/Yotes - Back in the win column!

[KIRK]

If we had a LW to make sense of it, then I'd be okay with LW-Geno-Rust.

Rust actually always has been pretty good on Geno's RW (not as good on the LW), but you need a LW to make it work.

I suppose Jake could, but I think you want Jake with Phil or Sid, because you get more there.

Thinking someone like Kreider.

I also opined a month ago that Brass-Geno-Rust could be okay, but I don't see Brass on Geno's wing. I see Brass, when he returns, finding form as a 3C or traded.

 

[SEALBound]

Thinking someone like Kreider.

Don't know what we could offer but Kreider would be money for us. I could see him coming up big for us in the playoffs. He's got that speed and snarl we really miss come playoff time.

Jake-Sid-Simon/Horny
Kreider-Malkin-Rust
Simon/Horny-Brass-Kessel

That would be a great Top 9 to throw out against just about any team.

 

[SEALBound]

Penguins - 2019 TDL - All in:

Hagelin+Sprong+1st+prospect+conditional 2nd (based on winning Cup) for Kreider+Zuccarello @50%

Jake-Sid-Zucs
Kreider-Geno-Rust
Horny-Brass-Kessel
Simon-Cullen-ZAR

 

[KIRK]

Penguins - 2019 TDL - All in:

Hagelin+Sprong+1st+prospect+conditional 2nd (based on winning Cup) for Kreider+Zuccarello @50%

Jake-Sid-Zucs
Kreider-Geno-Rust
Horny-Brass-Kessel
Simon-Cullen-ZAR

 

[Peat]

ZAR-Malkin-Phil theoretically would be the closest we could get as is.

Well, be of good cheer, they keep trying it every pre-season so they must like the idea.

If we had a LW to make sense of it, then I'd be okay with LW-Geno-Rust.

Rust actually always has been pretty good on Geno's RW (not as good on the LW), but you need a LW to make it work.

I suppose Jake could, but I think you want Jake with Phil or Sid, because you get more there.

Thinking someone like Kreider.

I also opined a month ago that Brass-Geno-Rust could be okay, but I don't see Brass on Geno's wing. I see Brass, when he returns, finding form as a 3C or traded.

Gonna be fun to see what they do with Brass post injury.

Anywyay, while Jake makes everything work and is good with Rust, I think I'd want a heavier guy. Basically recreate HMH with better hands. Kreider or Brass, yeah. Silfvrberg? I forget whether he's a leftie or a rightie.

 

[Peat]

@Peat mentioned in the GDT some concerns about De Smith moving too much. I think his confidence is extremely high and seems like he knows where the puck is at all times. He’s playing with some swagger right now.

Forgot about this one...

Intellectually, I know he's fine. But emotionally? He makes me nervous. He can (hypothetically) play the exact same stats as Murray, but there's something about how routine an in form Murray makes it look that makes me calm, and something about how much of an adventure DeSmith makes it look that makes me nervous.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Forgot about this one...

Intellectually, I know he's fine. But emotionally? He makes me nervous. He can (hypothetically) play the exact same stats as Murray, but there's something about how routine an in form Murray makes it look that makes me calm, and something about how much of an adventure DeSmith makes it look that makes me nervous.

Yeah that’s fair. Right now nothing De Smith does makes me nervous. Jarry moves around a bit too. He’s sort of a blend. He can look like Fleury mobility wise but can rein it in like Fleury. He just hasn’t worked out the best of both worlds yet in terms of when to use what.

 

[KIRK]

Well, be of good cheer, they keep trying it every pre-season so they must like the idea.

Gonna be fun to see what they do with Brass post injury.

Anywyay, while Jake makes everything work and is good with Rust, I think I'd want a heavier guy. Basically recreate HMH with better hands. Kreider or Brass, yeah. Silfvrberg? I forget whether he's a leftie or a rightie.

Whatever they do with Brass post injury, they sure as heck need to figure it out already. Use him constructively or trade him, because we cant keep wasting an asset like that.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Whatever they do with Brass post injury, they sure as heck need to figure it out already. Use him constructively or trade him, because we cant keep wasting an asset like that.

What does he need to do to not be considered a waste? Because he's scoring every bit as much as anybody should expect him to.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Think it will depend how well the other wingers are rollin'.
If Simon/Rust can build off the ARI game, you slot Brass at C. If they revert back to sucky/non-existant, get him on LW.

Cycles.

He's still -6 on the season, and while these last few games have been relatively good, they have been only coming in 2 game spurts more often than not.

+ in only 3 games
- in only 6 games
= in only 6 games

He's still sporadic. You say good for 6 games but he's still a - player for half those 6.

Lets see if he can stretch a few more together without being a minus and be = at best and then we'll know if he has turned a corner and has settled in. If it takes playing behind Sid and beside Letang to get that out of him, cool.... but that is putting him in the best position you possibly can to shelter him. Elsewhere, he'll probably still be erratic.

Playing behind Sid/beside Letang isn't exactly sheltering him.
Like i said earlier, i dunno if an Olli, Rig or a rookie-Riikola would look as decent/comfortable beside 58.
And Tanger seems to be able to play off of what JJ does well vs the other 3 atm.
Yes, it could fall apart but i believe it's less likely to do so vs x-58 where x is anyone but 8 atm.
I'll call it encouraging and it has potential to sturdy the group with 8 potentially having Schultz to play with later in the season.

 

[Peat]

What does he need to do to not be considered a waste? Because he's scoring every bit as much as anybody should expect him to.

Have points in more than 33% of his games and find a few nice stable partnerships that work. I'm not particularly blaming him here by the way - the whole thing has been a bit weird, he's had a lot of line changes and in general the idea that the org isn't quite sure what they want from him remains intact - but Brassard hasn't found his connections here this season and one great feast vs Calgary shouldn't disguise the fact.

Whatever they do with Brass post injury, they sure as heck need to figure it out already. Use him constructively or trade him, because we cant keep wasting an asset like that.

Well yeah. I wouldn't like to go past January with him on the roster and not really being sure what his good lines were.

 

[KIRK]

What does he need to do to not be considered a waste? Because he's scoring every bit as much as anybody should expect him to.

Take out the 3 assists in Calgary, because that's an anomaly.

And, I think you know it goes beyond 'scoring every bit as much as anybody'.

They paid a pretty penny for Brass to be an impact 3C. He's been anything but.

IF you can't get that value out of him on the ice, then accept that he still is a valuable trade chip and retool.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Have points in more than 33% of his games and find a few nice stable partnerships that work. I'm not particularly blaming him here by the way - the whole thing has been a bit weird, he's had a lot of line changes and in general the idea that the org isn't quite sure what they want from him remains intact - but Brassard hasn't found his connections here this season and one great feast vs Calgary shouldn't disguise the fact.

Take out the 3 assists in Calgary, because that's an anomaly.

And, I think you know it goes beyond 'scoring every bit as much as anybody'.

They paid a pretty penny for Brass to be an impact 3C. He's been anything but.

IF you can't get that value out of him on the ice, then accept that he still is a valuable trade chip and retool.

I'm including last year where he had a point in 8 of his 12 games before getting hurt. If you expect more production than that, you're going to be disappointed.

Obviously he started this year with some inconsistency, just like pretty much everyone else on the team. But a 3 point night isn't some crazy anomaly for Brassard. I mean, a consistent game was an anomaly for the team to start the year so I guess you can count that as an anomaly. But he's a guy with enough history of production that I'm not overly worried about a 5 game pointless stretch.

 

[KIRK]

I'm including last year where he had a point in 8 of his 12 games before getting hurt. So he started this year with some inconsistency, just like pretty much everyone else on the team. If you expect more production than that, you're going to be disappointed.

We need Brassard to fit and to make that 3rd line a difference maker.

Honestly, I've watched Brass his whole career. I expected Big Game Brass when we got him. He hasn't been that.

I don't know why. Injuries is part of it, I know. But, the fit.

I mean, I'd like to see what he can do with Kessel on one side and Jake/Rust on the other in extended time.

If it works like I think it should, then great. You've got your difference maker.

BUT, if it doesn't, then I think what you can get for him is worth more.

All I'm saying . . .

 

[Ogrezilla]

We need Brassard to fit and to make that 3rd line a difference maker.

Honestly, I've watched Brass his whole career. I expected Big Game Brass when we got him. He hasn't been that.

I don't know why. Injuries is part of it, I know. But, the fit.

I mean, I'd like to see what he can do with Kessel on one side and Jake/Rust on the other in extended time.

If it works like I think it should, then great. You've got your difference maker.

BUT, if it doesn't, then I think what you can get for him is worth more.

All I'm saying . . .

and I'm saying if 8 points every 12 games isn't enough, then you aren't likely to get it. That would be his best season of his career in terms of even strength, despite playing about 3 minutes less than he typically has.

 

[KIRK]

and I'm saying if 8 points every 12 games isn't enough, then you aren't likely to get it. That would be his best season of his career at even strength, despite playing about 3 minutes less than he typically has.

SO, when he returns healthy, he's going to pick up right there? If you can promise me that, then okay, let's keep him.

Of course, IF one 12 game sample told us everything about anyone, life would be easy . . .

 

[Ogrezilla]

SO, when he returns healthy, he's going to pick up right there? If you can promise me that, then okay, let's keep him.

Of course, IF one 12 game sample told us everything about anyone, life would be easy . . .

I'm not saying he'll pick up right there. In fact, I'd be shocked if he did. Do you think it's reasonable to expect him to actually be more productive as a 3rd liner than he was as a 1st or 2nd liner?

 

[Ogrezilla]

also, before coming to the Pens Big Game Brass scored at a 38 ES point pace over his playoff career. Obviously he didn't do well last playoffs on a bum groin, but he's outpaced that in the regular season so far. Actually he's outpaced that even including the playoff games.

 

[KIRK]

I'm not saying he'll pick up right there. In fact, I'd be shocked if he did. Do you think it's reasonable to expect him to actually be more productive as a 3rd liner than he was as a 1st or 2nd liner?

No, and I wouldn't hold it against him if he weren't.

All I said is that we need an impact 3rd line and that Brass needs to be a big part of driving that. Not just the points but in terms of how the line controls/dictates play.

Forget the points. IF he gives you THAT, then I'm 100% thrilled, because THAT will be what I expected when the Pens got him.

BUT, IF the fit isn't there, for whatever reason, I think you have to be open to dealing him, because he's got a lot of value out there.

That doesn't mean give him away, by the way. I think sometimes some people conflate that with saying 'be open to dealing him'.

 

[Ogrezilla]

No, and I wouldn't hold it against him if he weren't.

All I said is that we need an impact 3rd line and that Brass needs to be a big part of driving that. Not just the points but in terms of how the line controls/dictates play.

Forget the points. IF he gives you THAT, then I'm 100% thrilled, because THAT will be what I expected when the Pens got him.

BUT, IF the fit isn't there, for whatever reason, I think you have to be open to dealing him, because he's got a lot of value out there.

That doesn't mean give him away, by the way. I think sometimes some people conflate that with saying 'be open to dealing him'.

Sure, but you're talking about not going past January. That seems like more than being open to dealing him.

I just really want us to give him a consistent line. I don't care what line as long as it's two top-9 players. But something to work with for some amount of time. I'd be shocked if he doesn't make it work.

 

[Andy99]

No, and I wouldn't hold it against him if he weren't.

All I said is that we need an impact 3rd line and that Brass needs to be a big part of driving that. Not just the points but in terms of how the line controls/dictates play.

Forget the points. IF he gives you THAT, then I'm 100% thrilled, because THAT will be what I expected when the Pens got him.

BUT, IF the fit isn't there, for whatever reason, I think you have to be open to dealing him, because he's got a lot of value out there.

That doesn't mean give him away, by the way. I think sometimes some people conflate that with saying 'be open to dealing him'.

Other than the obvious reasons, this is another reason I’d rather the Pens hold onto Sprong right now...we may need to trade Brass, Maatta etc before the deadline depending on how things work out, and our return on any trade will likely be better if we can put him in with a package...

 

[KIRK]

Sure, but you're talking about not going past January. That seems like more than being open to dealing him.

I just scanned my posts on this page about Brass. When did I say January?

Other than the obvious reasons, this is another reason I’d rather the Pens hold onto Sprong right now...we may need to trade Brass, Maatta etc before the deadline depending on how things work out, and our return on any trade will likely be better if we can put him in with a package...

Fair point.

BTW, the big irony in all of this for me where Sprong is concerned is that the best way to pump his trade value would be to give him that shot with Geno. Only upside. And, if it doesn't work, then you're only back where you started, no worse.

EDIT: Then again, Sully using Sprong with Geno to raise his trade value might have an unintended consequence as far as Sully is concerned . . . it might work.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I just scanned my posts on this page about Brass. When did I say January?

ah that's Peat. Damn you folks and your lack of avatars.

Either way, I think you are undervaluing a guy who is producing at a 40 ES point pace from the 3rd line. Even if he doesn't pass the eye test, that's really damn good.

 

[Gurglesons]

also, before coming to the Pens Big Game Brass scored at a 38 ES point pace over his playoff career. Obviously he didn't do well last playoffs on a bum groin, but he's outpaced that in the regular season so far. Actually he's outpaced that even including the playoff games.

With a bum groin he scored at a .33 ppg. Which is what Bones had in 16-17 and Cullen was at .35ppg that year.

The Brassard narrative is absolutely asisine around here.

 

[Peat]

I'm including last year where he had a point in 8 of his 12 games before getting hurt. If you expect more production than that, you're going to be disappointed.

Obviously he started this year with some inconsistency, just like pretty much everyone else on the team. But a 3 point night isn't some crazy anomaly for Brassard. I mean, a consistent game was an anomaly for the team to start the year so I guess you can count that as an anomaly. But he's a guy with enough history of production that I'm not overly worried about a 5 game pointless stretch.

I don't expect more production than he gave last season per se - but I do hope he can get to that production rate pretty sharpish when he gets back.

And more to the point, I just want them to figure out what they're doing with him and find a place he clicks. I don't care if that's wing, centre, or hell even both if he clicks at both, but right now he's the foster child of the team, getting shuffled around the place looking for something that fits and getting nothing. That's the main thing I'm really objecting to here. Not what Brassard has done, but what he's going to do. They need to figure what they're doing with him. And yeah, in their defence they've had a short period of time that's been rife with injuries.

But now they have a short period of time before deciding whether to cash in their chips and try something else or go for broke with him. They need an answer quick.