Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens run Wild in the Minnesota Snow!

[ColePens]

I mean, people used the same argument with Rust last year.

There is one thing you really struggle with in debating these players and I think it's your emotional connection to them. Every player is different. Every player does get a little more/less cushion with mistakes for what they bring. However there should, at some time, be a standard. Just some examples:

1) Rust: I thought Sully actually was VERY good w/ Rust last year. He gave him time to fight through struggles, which IMO Rust deserved after being such a team player for a couple years. When he didn't, he was moved down the lineup because he can fulfill that role. Rust took full responsibility and when he came out the other side, it wasn't shocking even in the least. He deserved criticism. He criticized himself. It is what it is. And I thought the Pens did the right thing by not panicking and trying to move him. I was pissed this year when he was going to be attached to JJ as trade bait.

2) Letang: Another example you really struggle with. This guy deserves THE BIGGEST leash you can find. Because his great is so damn great. But his bad can be frustrating. I think the coaches do a great job. They've pulled him from the powerplay. They've tried to coach. Letang has given back by trying out their style and even switching his offseason workouts to injury prevention. And that may be why he started a tad less explosive this year but is really finding his legs now. But in all the criticism that has been deserved, the adoration that has been deserved, and even the times #58 is hard on himself - the right move forever has been to keep #58 until his contract is up. And i'm very happy the Pens did so.

3) Sheary: Here is an example because Sheary was anywhere from L1 to L4 and he continued to prove he has NHL scoring ability. When he struggled, he was moved down. When he was good, he was moved up. I still stand by the fact I would have kept him. But that's just me. But what I loved about Sheary is that he could actually play a bottom 6 role and do it well. Same with Rusty.


But now Simon. Simon is an interesting player. He's a top 6 NHLer... or a top 6 AHLer. It doesn't seem like he has that ability to play a bottom 6 role. So it is unique and a tad different. So this is not comparable to Rust/Sheary or anyone else. If anything - it's comparable to Sprong but in a completely different way. Sprong could only shoot like an NHLer. Nothing else. Simon has allllll the talent in the world but struggles defensively and cannot shoot. I think they are giving him chance after chance, and I like that. Might as well find out what you do before moving him. So right now I think it's playing out just fine. I want to see where it goes. Then i look into my post up above outlining the 3 major issues this team has. Then i piece it all together and try to make the best roster adjustment.

 

[Andy99]

There is one thing you really struggle with in debating these players and I think it's your emotional connection to them. Every player is different. Every player does get a little more/less cushion with mistakes for what they bring. However there should, at some time, be a standard. Just some examples:

1) Rust: I thought Sully actually was VERY good w/ Rust last year. He gave him time to fight through struggles, which IMO Rust deserved after being such a team player for a couple years. When he didn't, he was moved down the lineup because he can fulfill that role. Rust took full responsibility and when he came out the other side, it wasn't shocking even in the least. He deserved criticism. He criticized himself. It is what it is. And I thought the Pens did the right thing by not panicking and trying to move him. I was pissed this year when he was going to be attached to JJ as trade bait.

2) Letang: Another example you really struggle with. This guy deserves THE BIGGEST leash you can find. Because his great is so damn great. But his bad can be frustrating. I think the coaches do a great job. They've pulled him from the powerplay. They've tried to coach. Letang has given back by trying out their style and even switching his offseason workouts to injury prevention. And that may be why he started a tad less explosive this year but is really finding his legs now. But in all the criticism that has been deserved, the adoration that has been deserved, and even the times #58 is hard on himself - the right move forever has been to keep #58 until his contract is up. And i'm very happy the Pens did so.

3) Sheary: Here is an example because Sheary was anywhere from L1 to L4 and he continued to prove he has NHL scoring ability. When he struggled, he was moved down. When he was good, he was moved up. I still stand by the fact I would have kept him. But that's just me. But what I loved about Sheary is that he could actually play a bottom 6 role and do it well. Same with Rusty.


But now Simon. Simon is an interesting player. He's a top 6 NHLer... or a top 6 AHLer. It doesn't seem like he has that ability to play a bottom 6 role. So it is unique and a tad different. So this is not comparable to Rust/Sheary or anyone else. If anything - it's comparable to Sprong but in a completely different way. Sprong could only shoot like an NHLer. Nothing else. Simon has allllll the talent in the world but struggles defensively and cannot shoot. I think they are giving him chance after chance, and I like that. Might as well find out what you do before moving him. So right now I think it's playing out just fine. I want to see where it goes. Then i look into my post up above outlining the 3 major issues this team has. Then i piece it all together and try to make the best roster adjustment.

good assessment...I’d say, if you ask what the Pens need from their top 6 wingers, you’d probably say 1) speed, 2) forechecking and backchecking ability and 3) scoring ability...ideally, the winger should bring at least two of these attributes...because of our centers (when healthy), playmaking ability is probably not the top skill you need...Simon is not really strong in any of those attributes (and he’s not the only one this is true for), but his strength in playmaking is not really what’s most important for that position imo...I’d love it if we could find other options there...this is why I’d give Kahun a shot even though he hasn’t impressed yet

 

[DearDiary]

Has anyone discussed Dumoulin missing an empty net by a mile after Crosby scored?

 

[Gurglesons]

There is one thing you really struggle with in debating these players and I think it's your emotional connection to them. Every player is different. Every player does get a little more/less cushion with mistakes for what they bring. However there should, at some time, be a standard. Just some examples:

1) Rust: I thought Sully actually was VERY good w/ Rust last year. He gave him time to fight through struggles, which IMO Rust deserved after being such a team player for a couple years. When he didn't, he was moved down the lineup because he can fulfill that role. Rust took full responsibility and when he came out the other side, it wasn't shocking even in the least. He deserved criticism. He criticized himself. It is what it is. And I thought the Pens did the right thing by not panicking and trying to move him. I was pissed this year when he was going to be attached to JJ as trade bait.

2) Letang: Another example you really struggle with. This guy deserves THE BIGGEST leash you can find. Because his great is so damn great. But his bad can be frustrating. I think the coaches do a great job. They've pulled him from the powerplay. They've tried to coach. Letang has given back by trying out their style and even switching his offseason workouts to injury prevention. And that may be why he started a tad less explosive this year but is really finding his legs now. But in all the criticism that has been deserved, the adoration that has been deserved, and even the times #58 is hard on himself - the right move forever has been to keep #58 until his contract is up. And i'm very happy the Pens did so.

3) Sheary: Here is an example because Sheary was anywhere from L1 to L4 and he continued to prove he has NHL scoring ability. When he struggled, he was moved down. When he was good, he was moved up. I still stand by the fact I would have kept him. But that's just me. But what I loved about Sheary is that he could actually play a bottom 6 role and do it well. Same with Rusty.


But now Simon. Simon is an interesting player. He's a top 6 NHLer... or a top 6 AHLer. It doesn't seem like he has that ability to play a bottom 6 role. So it is unique and a tad different. So this is not comparable to Rust/Sheary or anyone else. If anything - it's comparable to Sprong but in a completely different way. Sprong could only shoot like an NHLer. Nothing else. Simon has allllll the talent in the world but struggles defensively and cannot shoot. I think they are giving him chance after chance, and I like that. Might as well find out what you do before moving him. So right now I think it's playing out just fine. I want to see where it goes. Then i look into my post up above outlining the 3 major issues this team has. Then i piece it all together and try to make the best roster adjustment.

I don’t have any emotional connection to these players outside of Letang. I think my big issue is people act like Rust’s year last year was atrocious then turn around and plead for a player like Ehlers who had similar struggles after signing a big ticket.

People say Letang “can’t hit the net” then long for a player like Burns who is basically the Ovechkin of defensemen.

Honestly, I think the most accepting posters on this board are the majority of users that are not based in the EST because we watch other teams and realize how special this team has been and some of the talent we have.

I think you saying Simon is AHL or NHL top six is a perfect example of that.

 

[ColePens]

I don’t have any emotional connection to these players outside of Letang. I think my big issue is people act like Rust’s year last year was atrocious then turn around and plead for a player like Ehlers who had similar struggles after signing a big ticket.

People say Letang “can’t hit the net” then long for a player like Burns who is basically the Ovechkin of defensemen.

Honestly, I think the most accepting posters on this board are the majority of users that are not based in the EST because we watch other teams and realize how special this team has been and some of the talent we have.

I think you saying Simon is AHL or NHL top six is a perfect example of that.

I cannot even fathom how you take me saying Simon is a top 6 NHLer or a top 6 AHLer as a negative. That is baffling. And then you always do this thing where you need to compare instead of just focusing on the player in the discussion.

I think that's quite the honor to be called a top 6 NHLer. But just for this specific team's make up - I delivered my team needs/opinion/etc. I presented the case for what I think is important.

 

[Gurglesons]

I cannot even fathom how you take me saying Simon is a top 6 NHLer or a top 6 AHLer as a negative. That is baffling. And then you always do this thing where you need to compare instead of just focusing on the player in the discussion.

I think that's quite the honor to be called a top 6 NHLer. But just for this specific team's make up - I delivered my team needs/opinion/etc. I presented the case for what I think is important.

But, the case has no backing aside from “I feel this way” all of Simon’s metrics which you know are defined by chances and goals against paint him as a great defensive player. I don’t want him PKing, but I see nothing in Simon’s game that believes me to think he is unable to play defense in a bottom six role.

 

[ColePens]

But, the case has no backing aside from “I feel this way” all of Simon’s metrics which you know are defined by chances and goals against paint him as a great defensive player. I don’t want him PKing, but I see nothing in Simon’s game that believes me to think he is unable to play defense in a bottom six role.

Well i'm not going to waste my time trying to discuss. I don't feel like a 10 page twitter battle because we disagree. It it what it is. We don't get a say at the end of the day.

At the end of the day I truly like the way the Pens are trending. We have some obvious pieces that need out of there. And even if we take every perfect step (cough Tampa), it doesn't mean shit.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

You said:



This was part of a bigger post yes. I did choose to only address this part because it's the part I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I simply said:



Which is more than sound reasoning as to why the Maatta-Kahun trade is still a good trade even if Kahun isn't lighting it up for us.

You replied:



This is where it goes sideways because you didn't mention any of this in the comment I replied to. Its not that anyone disagrees with that...I think it's up for debate honestly and I think it stems from the deals JR was simply able to make that he liked.

You replied with:



Yeah, I don't follow you on here, on instagram, nor on twitter so I don't necessarily see all these anti-Maatta-Kahun comments you make. I simply replied to the one I saw. I cherry-picked nothing. I replied to your comment, you changed the argument and moved the goalposts, I called you on it, and you are now throwing a tantrum. I was not being a dick.

The Maatta-Kahun trade is not Despres-Lovejoy bad (this doesn't even take into account whether or not that was even a bad trade for us). There are several reasons why its still a decent trade, even right now. That said, Kahun has been here 5 games and looked decent in 2. Time brah...give it some time.

This all said, no one is arguing that JJ would have been better to trade than Maatta. Both needed to go and I can provide arguments on either side. At the time of the trade, I would have traded JJ and Maatta before EG. I think that's a pretty easy comment to make. Currently, EG's play kind blows and that's fine...but that doesn't change how I felt at the time. It's bad arguments to say that with EG's current play, he should have gone before Maatta. We wouldn't have known EG's currently play at that time. We could only base that on the play he had last season, which was actually pretty good.

So...there...

This all said man, don't take it personally. I just focused on your posts in this thread and generally speaking we agree 99% of the time.

I see. So you want me to include every nuance of all my views at all times in all posts. I'm sorry, but I don't have time for that.

Anyway, there's nothing that would get me to agree with you on Maatta/Kahun. Kahun is a lesser Simon and not needed. We get $4.1M-ish cap space next year, which is nice, but Maatta unfairly became a whipping boy around here, and the posters who treated him as such were flatly wrong. He wasn't the problem. His skating is bad, I absolutely agree. There are many scenarios in which that affects his game. But even with that defect, there are two far inferior defensemen here making a combined $7.25M on the third pair/in the press box. That is abhorrent management. Dealing Johnson and Gudbranson with sweeteners (even more cap space!) would have been preferable to dealing Maatta for Kahun. Yes, I would add Rust as a sweetener to JJ/EG to move them before I would've traded Maatta for Kahun.

And since only thorough posts are allowed, I'll add that I was never against dealing Maatta. If it were up to me, I would've gutted the defense and dealt all three of them. Maatta's skillset is probably best suited out west. But the fact that he was dealt before Johnson and Gudbranson is what's so unfathomable to me. $7.25M cap space. Completely wasted.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I see. So you want me to include every nuance of all my views at all times in all posts. I'm sorry, but I don't have time for that.

Anyway, there's nothing that would get me to agree with you on Maatta/Kahun. Kahun is a lesser Simon and not needed. We get $4.1M-ish cap space next year, which is nice, but Maatta unfairly became a whipping boy around here, and the posters who treated him as such were flatly wrong. He wasn't the problem. His skating is bad, I absolutely agree. There are many scenarios in which that affects his game. But even with that defect, there are two far inferior defensemen here making a combined $7.25M on the third pair/in the press box. That is abhorrent management. Dealing Johnson and Gudbranson with sweeteners (even more cap space!) would have been preferable to dealing Maatta for Kahun. Yes, I would add Rust as a sweetener to JJ/EG to move them before I would've traded Maatta for Kahun.

And since only thorough posts are allowed, I'll add that I was never against dealing Maatta. If it were up to me, I would've gutted the defense and dealt all three of them. Maatta's skillset is probably best suited out west. But the fact that he was dealt before Johnson and Gudbranson is what's so unfathomable to me. $7.25M cap space. Completely wasted.

This belongs in another thread, but out of JJ, Gud and Maata, the latter was the only one who had true value around the league and that was proven true when we got an asset (player plus cap space) in return.

In your other scenario of adding Rust to get rid of Guds/JJ doesn't play out in the real world. How many teams can accept $7M in salary coming in? We'd end up getting a less worse contract in return
These deals don't and can't happen in a vacuum.