Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens run Wild in the Minnesota Snow!

[SEALBound]

Before I get shot for picking Rust on L1, I am specifically taking Sid's wants into consideration. He wouldn't want to play w/ Tanev or Horny because he doesn't want to play with a dump and grind player. He specifically looks angry every time... So if we need a spot for Sid's wing between Simon/Rust/Kahun.... I default to Rust.

And yeah, it would be McCann possibly but I just like that L3.

I really hope Kahun gets a shot on L1 before Rust comes back. Just a shot...just wanna see. He did very well with Chicago's top talent. I know it's gonna be Rust and we're all gonna be disappointed but I just wanna have closure on Kahun.

 

[ColePens]

I really hope Kahun gets a shot on L1 before Rust comes back. Just a shot...just wanna see. He did very well with Chicago's top talent. I know it's gonna be Rust and we're all gonna be disappointed but I just wanna have closure on Kahun.

We sit here and promote the idea of "earning" and "deserving of", but that doesn't really fit Kahun's time in Pittsburgh so far. He's finally elevated his game in the last couple, but he's still not deserving of that opportunity.

We cannot pick and choose who we want to call out and who we want to ignore. If we claim ZAR had a bad camp/start to the season - then Kahun fits that mold, too. He's young. I'd keep him rolling in that bottom 6 and fighting for a spot. But he sure as hell hasn't earned it quite yet. He's building to it.

 

[billybudd]

We sit here and promote the idea of "earning" and "deserving of", but that doesn't really fit Kahun's time in Pittsburgh so far. He's finally elevated his game in the last couple, but he's still not deserving of that opportunity.

We cannot pick and choose who we want to call out and who we want to ignore. If we claim ZAR had a bad camp/start to the season - then Kahun fits that mold, too. He's young. I'd keep him rolling in that bottom 6 and fighting for a spot. But he sure as hell hasn't earned it quite yet. He's building to it.

Building on this to Simon, I understand the frustration that people have that the guy can't score a goal to save his life. He gets a shot between the circles and throws a 40 mph muffin at the net, which may or may not go 5 feet wide, and he does this 5 or 6 times a game. I actually laugh at how bad he is at trying to beat a goaltender. I haven't done that with a player since the days of Tanner Glass. A lot of the guys whose finish we've mocked over the years (Kennedy, Dupuis) are Mike Bossy compared to Simon when it comes to scoring goals.

But Simon's doing enough in support that you need an affirmative reason on behalf of Player X to remove him in favor of Player X. Player X needs to be providing an argument for why he would be better than Simon beyond "Simon can't beat a goaltender, who knows, maybe Player X can." I don't see any such argument applying to any player, yet.

 

[SEALBound]

We sit here and promote the idea of "earning" and "deserving of", but that doesn't really fit Kahun's time in Pittsburgh so far. He's finally elevated his game in the last couple, but he's still not deserving of that opportunity.

We cannot pick and choose who we want to call out and who we want to ignore. If we claim ZAR had a bad camp/start to the season - then Kahun fits that mold, too. He's young. I'd keep him rolling in that bottom 6 and fighting for a spot. But he sure as hell hasn't earned it quite yet. He's building to it.

I'm all for earning it but how often do guys "earn it" in our eyes and not get the chance? On the flip side, how often to guys really NOT earn it, and get the chance?

There's a balance between earning and trying something. I don't Simon has necessarily earned it. And while Sid's line has been on fire...Simon certainly hasn't. At some point production matters. Kahun hasn't been been the poster child of production, true, but neither has Simon.

So while we do sit here and say we want guys to earn it, let's be fair on who we apply that to.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

My lineup would be:

Sid centering Jake/Rust
Geno centering Gally/Tanev
McCann centering Simon or Kahun/Horny
TB centering AJ/Laff

Simon/Kahun being F13. ZAR being F14.

This feels like coming home to find your best friend in bed with your wife. The ultimate betrayal!

 

[ColePens]

This feels like coming home to find your best friend in bed with your wife. The ultimate betrayal!

THIS ISN'T WHAT I WANT! I love Rusty w/ Geno or L3. But realistically we are how many years into Sid's career? We know he wants what he wants. And the dude wins. Who am I to go against it? 87 gets what he wants.... and im okay with it.

 

[Andy99]

I'm all for earning it but how often do guys "earn it" in our eyes and not get the chance? On the flip side, how often to guys really NOT earn it, and get the chance?

There's a balance between earning and trying something. I don't Simon has necessarily earned it. And while Sid's line has been on fire...Simon certainly hasn't. At some point production matters. Kahun hasn't been been the poster child of production, true, but neither has Simon.

So while we do sit here and say we want guys to earn it, let's be fair on who we apply that to.

yeah, I think he might be Simon with more finishing ability but I’m only thinking that based on his Chicago work...I don’t think the coaching staff has found the right spot for him or put him in a position to succeed...I think he’s had his most success at RW...I’d like to see him given a chance with Sid too...I don’t see him being a very good bottom six player...if he can work well with our top players, then he’s useful here...otherwise I see him being trade bait...

 

[ColePens]

Building on this to Simon, I understand the frustration that people have that the guy can't score a goal to save his life. He gets a shot between the circles and throws a 40 mph muffin at the net, which may or may not go 5 feet wide, and he does this 5 or 6 times a game. I actually laugh at how bad he is at trying to beat a goaltender. I haven't done that with a player since the days of Tanner Glass. A lot of the guys whose finish we've mocked over the years (Kennedy, Dupuis) are Mike Bossy compared to Simon when it comes to scoring goals.

But Simon's doing enough in support that you need an affirmative reason on behalf of Player X to remove him in favor of Player X. Player X needs to be providing an argument for why he would be better than Simon beyond "Simon can't beat a goaltender, who knows, maybe Player X can." I don't see any such argument applying to any player, yet.

Yeah i agree. Simon is beyond interesting to me. He's so creative. He has unbelievably smooth hands. He's got a decent ability to skate, uses edges well, and that puck hits and sticks on his stick. He's solid in that realm.

Defensively he's f***ing miserable. If he's back 3 on 3, i treat it like a 3 on 2. A pass will go by him and he will not be able to handle a guy in transition. And scoring goals? He's AHL level. He doesn't have Sheary's shot. He can't one-time well, which is one of Jake's best attributes. Jake's release is so quick that goalies cannot get set. Simon does not have that.

One of the team's biggest issues is transition defense and d-zone support. That's why I think I get frustrated w/ Simon. I think Simon is either a top 6 winger w/ a guy like Sid or not an NHLer at all. He's not a bottom 6 guy. He's an all-in or all-out player. And that is frustrating. Where he is better than Kahun at o-zone stuff, Kahun actually backchecks and matters defensively.

 

[ColePens]

Simon being able to score is probably the least of my worries on a line w/ Sid/Jake. My worry is that he is pretty useless from red line to his own goalline. That support is something McCann does very well for that line. And by a country mile was our biggest issue w/ the Caps/Isles series. It wasn't even f***ing close. Our red line to our goalline was a MEGA issue in the last 2 playoff exits.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah Simon is a weird case. I don't really know how to peg him. It's hard to deny he does a lot of things that can help a scoring line but the whole "not capable of scoring a goal" thing is a bit of a hangup. Particularly on a top line. It just makes it that much easier to shut the line down when games really tighten up and you need that production from your top six.

But at the same time I can't say I'm clamoring for him to be yanked off Sid's RW, either.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Let's be real, his early 20's where he was on pace for 120 points every year was a far better player than today's 90-100 point, 2 way version.

I am being real. He does enough things better now to compensate for those lost 20 points IMO. When he scored 120 points he wasn't half as good at the details work of the game. He's used on the PK now, where he's exceptional. Sullivan can deploy him in the last minute (like last night) to outmuscle guys and get that zone clear or open net we need to seal it. He's a better leader. His face-offs are up. His PIM's are down. Had the 2nd most takeaways of his career. 2nd most blocks. Had his career-best total of even strength assists last year (by 5), with a large portion of those being primary assists. The only reason he doesn't score more goals now is because he's so hell bent on setting up Guentzel all year. He passes up wide open looks. He's selfless. People just overvalue offense now. It's important but not everything.

I would have said that his best season was 2010-11 when he had the 25 game point streak (25G, 25A, 50pts), because of sheer overwhelming offense. However, that season was cut short by half by that asshole Steckel. So I can't count it.

 

[Peat]

I posted a few pages back, but he’s playing a quiet, 200 ft game. I’m sure we’d all like more production, but with the way the line-up is I dunno how much that is going to come.

I am very unsure as to how to judge McCann and Blueger on this chance with Galchenyuk and Rust out. It's not an ideal situation for getting the opposition they're facing. At the same time, if they want to claim C roles in the top 9 they need to make things happen themselves. And it's not like they're with total rejects.

They're awesome fill in guys but we're not going to win many games without Geno, Rust, Galch, Bjugstad. That's almost half of our top 9.

I would be surprised if either of them stay on the team if all forwards are healthy.

a) As @Andy99 says, they'll never all be healthy.
b) Even if it does happen, it's a way away. There's a lot of time for kids to stake a claim. If the WBSers can make a claim for "Can make things happen without Sid or Geno", they'll be up for good at some point. We don't have enough of the. We could have a very different opinion on how good guys like Lafferty and AJ are in five games time.

Before I get shot for picking Rust on L1, I am specifically taking Sid's wants into consideration. He wouldn't want to play w/ Tanev or Horny because he doesn't want to play with a dump and grind player. He specifically looks angry every time... So if we need a spot for Sid's wing between Simon/Rust/Kahun.... I default to Rust.

And yeah, it would be McCann possibly but I just like that L3.

You're not wrong about Sid's likes, but I really don't get why Sid looks at Rust at being less dump and grind than those two.

 

[EightyOne]

Our shot shares have been solid the last three games. You can’t look into shots for and against in blow out games. The team with a 5 - 1 lead is always going to give up chances. Point being most of the Wild’s chances sucked and the ones that went into the net were point shots with tons of traffic. Hard to fault Murray for some of the goals outside of him playing too deep in his cage.

That being said once they went up 4 - 6 he shut the door.

Sorry I was vague. I wasn't saying Murray was rattled.

I meant, the Pens probably haven't gotten better at dominating good teams, they just had scoring support up and down the lineup on a rattled Dubnyk.

Scoring like that was sorely missing from outside L1 and L2 last year. Pens could have lost 4-3 without the depth scoring.

 

[Gurglesons]

I am very unsure as to how to judge McCann and Blueger on this chance with Galchenyuk and Rust out. It's not an ideal situation for getting the opposition they're facing. At the same time, if they want to claim C roles in the top 9 they need to make things happen themselves. And it's not like they're with total rejects.



a) As @Andy99 says, they'll never all be healthy.
b) Even if it does happen, it's a way away. There's a lot of time for kids to stake a claim. If the WBSers can make a claim for "Can make things happen without Sid or Geno", they'll be up for good at some point. We don't have enough of the. We could have a very different opinion on how good guys like Lafferty and AJ are in five games time.



You're not wrong about Sid's likes, but I really don't get why Sid looks at Rust at being less dump and grind than those two.

Once again this comes back to the Simon - Bjugstad - Hornqvist line. The occasional chip in from McCann and Teddy is fine if they aren’t getting scored on. Teddy hasn’t pulled that weight, McCann has IMO.

If we are giving Tanev a pass for his production at his price because of the “x factors”, I see no reason McCann shouldn’t get a pass as well.

I do think if McCann wants to be a 3C here though he needs to sit down with Sid and learn about face offs.

 

[The Old Master]

this year it's going to be all about the fit...... we have lots of supporting type players, it's just finding out who plays with who the best. and we saw last night that we have lots of players to pick from. none of them will be stars (so don't start with the unreal expatiation) but many could still be great fits. so the big question is.......is sully the right man for the job? only by playing the players will we find out and sully doesn't seem like he wants to unless hes forced.

 

[FDR]

I don't care what kind of intangibles a player brings. If he's on the top line, he needs to be able to finish. Simon can't.

I'd really like McCann to replace Simon but i understand why that can't happen just yet. I really thought he played well on Sids line last year in his limited time there.

 

[ColePens]

I don't care what kind of intangibles a player brings. If he's on the top line, he needs to be able to finish. Simon can't.

I'd really like McCann to replace Simon but i understand why that can't happen just yet. I really thought he played well on Sids line last year in his limited time there.

A little too simplified. If he helps the other 2 finish, then he plays his role. I'm not saying that is happening. I'm just saying there are other components.

For me... I look at things differently. I want to focus on the main issues that prevented us from getting back to a Cup final. Here are my 3 biggest issues:

1) Transition defense/winning battles. This was soooo key last year. Everyone was a passenger.

How they addressed it: IMO you can see if with Laff/AJ/Tanev. These influxes to energy and battle/compete level is significant. Whether Tanev deserved the outrageous deal he got or not, he was a guy I was hoping the Pens targeted for that simple component of battle. He has drawn us 7 penalties already. He wins battles. He keeps pucks alive. We desperately needed it. The need of youth/tenacity and people playing as if their career is on the line has to happen. Laff, AJ, and Tanev are playing as such.


2) In-zone defense: I don't need to explain.

How they addressed it: We haven't. It's a big issue .


3) Transition to Offense: Skating to pressure was the #1 issue against the Caps. They ate us up in a trap. Transitioned hard right back at us. We needed to skate to pressure. Transition has been very difficult.

How they addressed it: Marino. Riikola. Getting Maatta out of here. And hopefully finishing it off by getting JJ out of here.

 

[FDR]

I agree with a lot of that for sure.

I'm also fine with having a top winger not able to score if he disrupts the play and draws attention to himself. I don't Simon doing that. I'd rather have someone with speed that can win puck battles on the boards and cause chaos in front of the net. I don't want Hornqvist back there because he's just not very good with the puck on his stick.

 

[Turin]

I don't care what kind of intangibles a player brings. If he's on the top line, he needs to be able to finish. Simon can't.

I'd really like McCann to replace Simon but i understand why that can't happen just yet. I really thought he played well on Sids line last year in his limited time there.

So even if Crosby scores 110 points and Guentzel 80 it wouldn’t matter because Simon can’t score himself. Sound logic.

 

[Gurglesons]

So even if Crosby scores 110 points and Guentzel 80 it wouldn’t matter because Simon can’t score himself. Sound logic.

I mean, people used the same argument with Rust last year.

 

[BHD]

I’m sure @ColePens has an excel spreadsheet to keep track of who’s #earned it.

 

[ColePens]

I’m sure @ColePens has an excel spreadsheet to keep track of who’s #earned it.

They get mini Ohio State Buckeye stickers and when they get 10... promoted to the next line. If they make 10 mistakes, they get demoted and have to spend 1 night drinking with @HandshakeLin

(Thank God there is no downvoting here)

 

[Peat]

Once again this comes back to the Simon - Bjugstad - Hornqvist line. The occasional chip in from McCann and Teddy is fine if they aren’t getting scored on. Teddy hasn’t pulled that weight, McCann has IMO.

If we are giving Tanev a pass for his production at his price because of the “x factors”, I see no reason McCann shouldn’t get a pass as well.

I do think if McCann wants to be a 3C here though he needs to sit down with Sid and learn about face offs.

*looks at NST*

60 GF%, 55 xGF%. Checks out.

Blueger not so much... 33 GF%, 38 xGF%.

That's last 4 games though, and includes McCann's big game thrown into the fire. Last 3, when he knew he was centre (and didn't have so much Galchenyuk)? 0 GF%, 53 xGF%.

I'll take a 53 GF% from my 3C happily though if he can get it going like it should. Revisit this later we will but for now, yeah, this checks out. And yeah, Blueger's line needs to be be better.

Also teaching a young C about face offs sounds exactly like Player Development Coach territory to me (as well as Sid territory) - time to see Cully earn his corn!

 

[Zirakzigil]

NHL hasn’t award Sid his secondary assist for Jakes goal. Bunch of jerks.

 

[HandshakeLine]

They get mini Ohio State Buckeye stickers and when they get 10... promoted to the next line. If they make 10 mistakes, they get demoted and have to spend 1 night drinking with @HandshakeLin

(Thank God there is no downvoting here)

And I'm not even taking them to the nice cinephile cocktail bar, we're going to the cheap Russian vodka bar that only opens after 2 a.m.