Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens/Habs Game 1

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KIRK

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From Gentille's summary of the game in The Athletic . . .

Before that was a goal on a deflection by Jesperi Kotkaniemi. There was chaos in front of Murray, largely because Jack Johnson whiffed on an attempted hit on Kotkaniemi along the boards, allowing Kotkaniemi to skate past him and set up in front. Johnson scrambled to try to hit Kotkaniemi again in front of Murray; by then, Paul Byron’s shot was in the air.

Petry’s winner started as a three-on-five by the Canadiens. By the time he scored, Johnson and Justin Schultz were below the goal line at the left circle. Both of ’em. That was … something . . .

The Johnson-Schultz pairing, at its best, is a cross-your-fingers proposition. At its worst, it loses playoff series.
 

TNT87

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JJ is an absolute joke and obviously should be benched while on the other end of the spectrum Marino has so much poise and smoothness for a rookie. There was a sequence during the game where there was a big scrum in the corner and he calmly got the puck like there was no one around and skated behind the net to get it out of danger. Doing things like that and the consistency he already displays it's going to be enjoyable to watch him grow through the years.
 
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TKalltheTime

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If #3 get a sweater next game; which I expect he will; they are completely done. I probably won’t bother to continue to watch this embarrassment on ice.
 

Khelandros

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Wait, are people actually blaming JJ for the loss last night? Last time I checked he played the left side, he did his job and stopped Gallagher from getting the puck to the net. Bigger question should be why is Schultz, a RD, doing a pirouette in the left corner. Why is Tanev turtling in front of Petry. Why is ZAR just standing there watching Petry.

But yeah, it's all JJ fault.
 

KIRK

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If #3 get a sweater next game; which I expect he will; they are completely done. I probably won’t bother to continue to watch this embarrassment on ice.

As noted in the other thread, I'll watch . . . but I'm a glutton.

Also that #28 contract that will be kicking in... *shudders*

He's vanilla and soft. I mean, he's 'fine', but for 4M, it's painful to see him getting rag dolled by and otherwise struggling physically against even the smallest Habs players. Marino plays with a little physicality, but if you put a soft guy with him, then it's a soft pairing.

As an aside, I think that's why Dumo-Marino was such gold.

EDIT: Going to add this again unrelated. I get it. Murray wasn't 'bad'. He didn't 'lose' them the game. But, he was giving up bad rebounds off bad angle shots all night (something the Murray of old barely if ever did), and it gets a team on its heels.
 

TKalltheTime

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As noted in the other thread, I'll watch . . . but I'm a glutton.



He's vanilla and soft. I mean, he's 'fine', but for 4M, it's painful to see him getting rag dolled by and otherwise struggling physically against even the smallest Habs players. Marino plays with a little physicality, but if you put a soft guy with him, then it's a soft pairing.

As an aside, I think that's why Dumo-Marino was such gold.

EDIT: Going to add this again unrelated. I get it. Murray wasn't 'bad'. He didn't 'lose' them the game. But, he was giving up bad rebounds off bad angle shots all night (something the Murray of old barely if ever did), and it gets a team on its heels.
If pets was making like 1.8-2mil and on the 3rd pair great... but that much money. YIKES!
 
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Luigi Lemieux

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Pens looked really slow last night. It's probably why they were at their best with a bunch of injuries that forced younger players into the lineup. Bench Johnson/Schultz for Ruhwedel/Riikola and put in Lafferty for Marleau for starters.
 

ncm7772

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My thoughts, starting with forwards:

- Crosby looked ok, not great. Gunetzel was AWFUL. Knocked down and/or fell just as many times as Sheary it seemed.
- Sheary, per usual, was awful. Abysmal hands, no vision, softer than a marshmallow, the list goes on. Then you have the penalty shot. Ugh, don't even want to picture that.
- Malkin came out on fire, looked kind of blah after that. Not as bad as the NBC crew made it seem though, IMO. Did look really bad on the PP.
- Zucker and Rust played well, I thought. Zucker would be better placed on Crosby's wing, IMO/
- 3rd line was invisible. Thought McCann specifically looked bad. 72 and 12 were just kind of there.
- L4 was -2. For a supposed outstanding defensive line, sure didn't look it last night. ZAR is absolutely useless. Tanev at least had some jump in his step and used his speed. Blueger has always been overrated here, IMO. My opinion hasn't changed. He's certainly not a bad player, but he's overrated here.

- Top pairing looked just OK. Letang, other than his typically stale, stagnant PP quarterbacking, actually looked pretty good I thought. Dumolin looked slow at times.
- Marino was solid. Hardly noticed Petersson, which I think is good for a D-Man.
- Johnson was not good. Schultz was Schultz this season and last. Not awful, but hasn't fully recovered from the broken leg.

- Murray was good enough, I thought. I'm sure he'd like the 2nd goal back, but he was good enough I thought.

As most have mentioned, biggest reason for the loss was the PP. Just awful. 1-for-EFFING-7. Plus a missed penalty shot. And the goal was scored by the 2nd unit.

Typical Pens this year, a lack of willingness by most to go to the dirty areas.

This team is borderline stacked on paper. They just don't mesh. Reminds me of the '13 (not nearly as good) and '14 teams. No more room for error. I don't see them winning this series.
 

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I read through nearly the entire thread. Interesting stuff. Lots of anger, as expected. I don't think anyone is wrong but it's hard to pin point who is right. Then after deliberation of what I think is ailing the team, I think its larger collection of everything that we've been bitching about.

I don't think the loss can be blamed on any one thing but rather a collection. Here's a pie chart of everything that contributed to the loss:

Capture9.png


As you can see, there's no single thing that solely contributed. I don't think any single component contributes to any single or multiple losses. What ailes the Penguins is that they have so many little things that if added up, will lead to a loss.

The question becomes every game, will the collective things we know they CAN do well be enough to overcome the things we KNOW they will do bad. Sadly, personnel decisions alone account for a lot of what is in that chart. One player can play a major role in a lot of these things.

Sullivan playing Johnson.
Sullivan and coaching staff and perhaps even the players believing, to a fault, that the team is better off with Johnson in the lineup.
Murray starting.
Sullivan choosing to start Murray.
Murray's play at any given moment.
Third line being an irrelevant collection of human and plastic existing in the world.
Marleau being irrelevant.
Sullivan choosing to play Marleau due to some non-sense about being a vet.
The powerplay being ass.
The powerplay personnel selection.
Crosby and Malkin's lazy play on the PP.
Sheary not being a true 1RW.
Crosby being difficult to play for so finding true 1RW.
JJ-Schultz pairing.
Sullivan electing to have a JJ-Schultz pairing.
Guentzel being slightly rusty.
Zucker and Rust doing decent but seemingly unimpactful.
McCann not being great.
Horny not being great.
BART line doing what they are put together to do but somehow being a -2.
Sullivan electing to configure the bottom 6 the way he has.
Sullivan electing to not to play younger, more tenacious players.
Maybe 2 or 3 of the 18 players showing a consistent amount of speed and effort.
Low shooting % from every single player.
No one wanting to get in front of the net and create traffic.
Having your confidence shattered after 1 goal against.
Not taking your #12 seeded opponent seriously.

See where I'm going with this? No single thing sinks this team but we have this infuriating ability to quickly let several of these things overtake the game. One thing that I think did not work in their favor was everyone believe, and rightfully so, that this would be an absolute cakewalk for them. Granted it should be. But theres still a fair amount of parity in the league. They came out flying and dominated the play because they had confidence. Confidence that they were the superior team...and they are...because they ARE. But then...one goal against...and its the biggest reality punch in the face you could ever get. You could then visibly see the frustration building. With that, every single thing listed above (and the things that aren't) are exacerbated by that frustration. They said 'we stuck to our game'. They didn't.

I keep thinking about to 2016 and how team looked so fresh and wondered what is missing here. I think the sad reality that our stars are all 4 years older. But then there's that missing element of that youthful infusion. You look at Marino and I keep thinking...we NEED. MORE. OF. THAT. Why did I hate the 3rd line? I hated Marleau and to an extent, Horny. McCann is just...there. I love the play of the 4th line. If we could take that energy and infuse it throughout the lineup, we'd be golden.

Good news, it's only 1 game. It's a best of 5. We are capable of winning 3 of 4 games against these guys. That said, a loss means a good shot at a good pick so...pick your poison.
 

SouthGeorge

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I get blaming JJ and Murray are the cool things to do. But we had 40 shots. 7 pps and 2 goals... 2 goals.. This system sucks. We spent half the PP time struggling to get the puck in the zone. Then when we do. We pass it around the outside and Malkin takes a slapshot from boards or D takes a shot that gets blocked. Nobody in front of Price or in the middle of the ice. Sometimes we get lucky and score and put up 5 or 6 goals and it justifies Sully. It's not consistent winning hockey especially in the playoffs. It hasn't worked since 2016. We won another way in 2017 with worse players but for some reason have spent the whole time since trying to win like 2016?? It's mind boggling.
 
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Andy99

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I get blaming JJ and Murray are the cool things to do. But we had 40 shots. 7 pps and 2 goals... 2 goals.. This system sucks. We spent half the PP time struggling to get the puck in the zone. Then when we do. We pass it around the outside and Malkin takes a slapshot from boards or D takes a shot that gets blocked. Nobody in front of Price or in the middle of the ice. Sometimes we get lucky and score and put up 5 or 6 goals and it justifies Sully. It's not consistent winning hockey especially in the playoffs. It hasn't worked since 2016. We won another way in 2017 with worse players but for some reason have spent the whole time since trying to win like 2016?? It's mind boggling.

2017 cannot be replicated ...that was all based on an incredible shooting %...we counterpunched and had an incredible rate of finishing...otherwise we wouldn’t have that Cup

I don’t think 2016 is replicable either but that system is...the problem is that our good players are 4 years older and slower and we’re playing too many vets...that system requires a lot of young legs and constant work...

I’ve said repeatedly that we should play a more defensively structured system like Julien has, including a trap...but Sully is Sully...
 

Sidney the Kidney

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My thoughts, starting with forwards:

- Crosby looked ok, not great. Gunetzel was AWFUL. Knocked down and/or fell just as many times as Sheary it seemed.
- Sheary, per usual, was awful. Abysmal hands, no vision, softer than a marshmallow, the list goes on. Then you have the penalty shot. Ugh, don't even want to picture that.
- Malkin came out on fire, looked kind of blah after that. Not as bad as the NBC crew made it seem though, IMO. Did look really bad on the PP.
- Zucker and Rust played well, I thought. Zucker would be better placed on Crosby's wing, IMO/
- 3rd line was invisible. Thought McCann specifically looked bad. 72 and 12 were just kind of there.
- L4 was -2. For a supposed outstanding defensive line, sure didn't look it last night. ZAR is absolutely useless. Tanev at least had some jump in his step and used his speed. Blueger has always been overrated here, IMO. My opinion hasn't changed. He's certainly not a bad player, but he's overrated here.

- Top pairing looked just OK. Letang, other than his typically stale, stagnant PP quarterbacking, actually looked pretty good I thought. Dumolin looked slow at times.
- Marino was solid. Hardly noticed Petersson, which I think is good for a D-Man.
- Johnson was not good. Schultz was Schultz this season and last. Not awful, but hasn't fully recovered from the broken leg.

- Murray was good enough, I thought. I'm sure he'd like the 2nd goal back, but he was good enough I thought.

As most have mentioned, biggest reason for the loss was the PP. Just awful. 1-for-EFFING-7. Plus a missed penalty shot. And the goal was scored by the 2nd unit.

Typical Pens this year, a lack of willingness by most to go to the dirty areas.

This team is borderline stacked on paper. They just don't mesh. Reminds me of the '13 (not nearly as good) and '14 teams. No more room for error. I don't see them winning this series.

Speaking of Letang/Dumoulin, I don't think they played bad or anything. But I also don't think they played like difference makers like we've seen in the past. Letang's had games where he was flat out dominant and was a difference maker on offense, and Dumoulin's had games where he was perfect defensively and mistake-free in transition. I thought both were simply "solid" in those areas last night.

If the Pens are going to get by with their current horrendous third pairing, we're going to need our top pairing to be at their absolute best, not just "okay".
 
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ChaosAgent

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My thoughts, starting with forwards:

- Crosby looked ok, not great. Gunetzel was AWFUL. Knocked down and/or fell just as many times as Sheary it seemed.
- Sheary, per usual, was awful. Abysmal hands, no vision, softer than a marshmallow, the list goes on. Then you have the penalty shot. Ugh, don't even want to picture that.
- Malkin came out on fire, looked kind of blah after that. Not as bad as the NBC crew made it seem though, IMO. Did look really bad on the PP.

Agree Guentzel might have been their worst forward yesterday. Wasn't expecting that.
Sheary brought little. In more little ways than one.
Malkin played fine - good even - but his shot both at ES and the PP left a lot to be desired (I don't think his shots - both slappers and wristers - from distance are anywhere near as good as they were when he was in his 20s). Geno should have cashed in at some point and he just didn't.

Did McCann gain weight during lockdown or is it just me? His face looks a little...chubbier.
 
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ncm7772

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Speaking of Letang/Dumoulin, I don't think they played bad or anything. But I also don't think they played like difference makers like we've seen in the past. Letang's had games where he was flat out dominant and was a difference maker on offense, and Dumoulin's had games where he was perfect defensively and mistake-free in transition. I thought both were simply "solid" in those areas last night.

If the Pens are going to get by with their current horrendous third pairing, we're going to need our top pairing to be at their absolute best, not just "okay".

Yes, sir. Agree about Dumo/Letang 100%!

I don't consider Schultz horrendous, I think he can be a part of a very solid bottom pairing. But he's paired with Johnson. And I'm not one to bash Johnson all the time like many are. He actually played well at times this season. But last night, he was simply bad.

Kind of reminds me of how he was benched for Maatta last year for G1 vs the NYI, and Maatta was absolutely, horrifyingly atrocious. I wish this was an omen for Riikola being inserted into the lineup. And I'm not nearly as high on Riikola as many people here are, but he's an improvement over Johnson's performance last night.
 

Gurglesons

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Speaking of Letang/Dumoulin, I don't think they played bad or anything. But I also don't think they played like difference makers like we've seen in the past. Letang's had games where he was flat out dominant and was a difference maker on offense, and Dumoulin's had games where he was perfect defensively and mistake-free in transition. I thought both were simply "solid" in those areas last night.

If the Pens are going to get by with their current horrendous third pairing, we're going to need our top pairing to be at their absolute best, not just "okay".

Dumoulin was our 2nd worst defenseman after JJ last night. If Letang makes the pinch he did for the 2nd goal against this thread is 40 pages of Letang hate.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

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Agree Guentzel might have been their worst forward yesterday. Wasn't expecting that.
Sheary brought little. In more little ways than one.
Malkin played fine - good even - but his shot both at ES and the PP left a lot to be desired (I don't think his shots - both slappers and wristers - from distance are anywhere near as good as they were when he was in his 20s). Geno should have cashed in at some point and he just didn't.

Did McCann gain weight during lockdown or is it just me? His face looks a little...chubbier.

Agreed about Malkin's shot. Which is why it was ludicrous that the entire PP was setup to try and set him up for those constant one-timers from the top of the right faceoff dot. He doesn't have an Ovechkin-like shot from that range that you can dedicate your entire PP to that.
 
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SEALBound

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Dumoulin was our 2nd worst defenseman after JJ last night. If Letang makes the pinch he did for the 2nd goal against this thread is 40 pages of Letang hate.

Yeah Dumo is not the #2 Dumo of yesteryear. I dont think that Dumo is coming back unfortunately and Letang is not getting any younger.

When I look at the top 4 and realize I'm not a huge fan of 3 of them, I get anxious about using Addison to get Zucker.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Dumoulin was our 2nd worst defenseman after JJ last night. If Letang makes the pinch he did for the 2nd goal against this thread is 40 pages of Letang hate.

I also thought he was uncharacteristically sloppy with his outlet passes. He was making riskier plays than usual, a few of which got intercepted.
 

Bingo71

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The only time Johnson seems to be physical in front of the net is when he's shoving a player INTO his goalie. He doesn't seem to actually clear the crease but actively drives said player into the crease.

Schultz being on that pairing just makes it worse because he's got his own defensive issues that just magnify Johnson's.
The Classic Orpik...
 

Gurglesons

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Yeah Dumo is not the #2 Dumo of yesteryear. I dont think that Dumo is coming back unfortunately and Letang is not getting any younger.

When I look at the top 4 and realize I'm not a huge fan of 3 of them, I get anxious about using Addison to get Zucker.

Dumo is fine, but I just don’t understand why he gets a pass always around here despite being a mess regularly over the last two years.
 

ncm7772

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Agree Guentzel might have been their worst forward yesterday. Wasn't expecting that.
Sheary brought little. In more little ways than one.
Malkin played fine - good even - but his shot both at ES and the PP left a lot to be desired (I don't think his shots - both slappers and wristers - from distance are anywhere near as good as they were when he was in his 20s). Geno should have cashed in at some point and he just didn't.

Did McCann gain weight during lockdown or is it just me? His face looks a little...chubbier.

Good call, I actually noticed that as well about McCann.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

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I'm super down for Lafferty in the lineup for Marleau. Lafferty-McCann-Hornqvist or McCann-Lafferty-Hornqvist couldn't be worse than Marleau on that line.
 
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