Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 2 Pens vs. Sabres

[KIRK]

I think that's the wrong question, because Bort will hold his own no matter who his partner is.

The question is will which of these scenarios is more likely:

Maatta still having ice water in his veins come playoff time with a fierce forecheck

Or

Nisky finally not wilting come playoff time with a fierce forecheck

If you gave Maatta a full year to play with Borts, where he got to learn from the insanity of going to Philly and games against Chicago and Boston, then I'd put my money on Maatta.

As I said, THAT kid learns and grows from everything he experiences. He competes. And, you can't teach how smartly he plays the game. IMO, in 80 games, he's ready to be the better playoff defenseman than Niskanen.

EDIT: With Niskanen, you know the limitations, and you know they'll rear their heads at some point. That's been his MO from day one in Dallas. Pounded into submission, play like a chicken with his head cut off trying to track the play when a team really gets a cycle going and attacks with skill or physicality or both.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

What's sad is I remember the Pens playing against Sutter. His entire job was to cover Geno. He absolutely blanketed him. Mugged, hooked, held, bit . . . did whatever you'd expect a Sutter to do to get the job done. THAT is the Sutter who I thought the Pens were getting. It's not the one they got.

Meh, matchups are overrated anyway.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Yes, because it makes no difference if Malkin and Neal (when he returns) play with Bennett or Jokinen. With Neal out, Jokinen, not Bennett, is the third wheel with Malkin, and is it any wonder that Malkin's pickup in his play today coincided with his getting consistent shifts with Bennett? You want JJ in the top nine when Neal returns, then play him with Sutter and Kobasew. At long last, it's time for this team's best winger to play with Sid or Geno.

I'd much rather have BB with Sid/Kunitz and Dupuis on the 3rd, but since that's not happening, I'll take my 3 lines of scoring rather than two, yes.

 

[IcedCapp]

Then who's this here with me? uh oh...TELL MY

we're all drunk

 

[Speaking Moistly]

And, don't forget, Sid really likes playing with Kunitz and Dupuis.

I think it's time we start blaming Crosby for everything. The greatest scapegoat in the NHL!

Refuses to play with Bennett.
Tried to sabotage Malkin with Iginla.
Undermines Fleury's confidence.
Bullies Bylsma.
Puts numbing cream in Dupuis' gloves.
Hit Letang with his car.
Made Neal slip in the shower and mess up his shoulder.
Tells Glass to be a worse player and that he can't make Adams look bad.
Gives Adams sleeping pills before games.
Makes Orpik, Glass and Niskanen watch Under the Dome to lose IQ points.
Demands to play with Kunitz and Dupuis because it reminds him of KD.
Told Neal that working too hard can cause male pattern baldness.
Gives Malkin tanning oil and says it's sunscreen.
Makes Shero draft defensemen so as not to threaten him.

C'mon, guys like Talbot (or Brent Sutter) . . . what a player lacks in size or muscle he can make up for with tenacity and abandon. Brett, as you noted, is mellow and meek. He's a nice kid. What he needs is to play like a Sutter.

Maybe you're right, but he looks shockingly thin for an NHL player that isn't a goalie and I don't think it would hurt. More weight would help make up for the lack of Sutterness. Maybe he's the milkman's?

 

[mpp9]

I'm tired of your dislike for Jokinen. We shouldn't trade him. The dude is so versatile and he produces. He needs to be kept.

If Beau is a fixture next to Geno and Jeffrey with Sutter, then he has little use to this hockey team.

He's a hot and cold player. And Nisky seems to be loved by this coaching staff/management. It's just an opinion man.

But I suppose agreeing that trading Nisky is inevitable is more useful conversation. Especially when Despres could very well be in danger of getting passed over in our depth chart.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

If you gave Maatta a full year to play with Borts, where he got to learn from the insanity of going to Philly and games against Chicago and Boston, then I'd put my money on Maatta.

As I said, THAT kid learns and grows from everything he experiences. He competes. And, you can't teach how smartly he plays the game. IMO, in 80 games, he's ready to be the better playoff defenseman than Niskanen.

EDIT: With Niskanen, you know the limitations, and you know they'll rear their heads at some point. That's been his MO from day one in Dallas. Pounded into submission, play like a chicken with his head cut off trying to track the play when a team really gets a cycle going and attacks with skill or physicality or both.

If Maatta stays up I'll be beyond shocked.

 

[KIRK]

I'm tired of your dislike for Jokinen. We shouldn't trade him. The dude is so versatile and he produces. He needs to be kept.

Over Glass?

I think most people are kind of cheating when they talk about JJ. I know that I am.

Assumption #1: KCD will NEVER be broken up, no matter how much it wilts against a tough defensive team in the playoffs.

Assumption #2: Bennett MUST play with Sid or Geno.

Assumption #3: If Jeffrey really clicks with Sutter and Kobasew, then the place for JJ would be line 4 by default.

Assumption #4: Glass and Adams won't sit, so JJ's fate would be centering those two *** clowns, which is a waste.

It's not that JJ doesn't have value. It's that his presence empowers the staff to misuse Bennett. Much as Bennett might help Sutter and Kobasew, it is more important to this team that whoever plays on Geno and Neal's LW provide them the greatest possible advantage. That's Bennett, not Jokinen.

For the record, when Neal returns, I'm perfectly content with JJ playing with Sutter and Kobasew, but that means wasting one of Jeffrey or Vitale. Not to mention who knows what happens when D'Agostini is healthy.

 

[KIRK]

I think it's time we start blaming Crosby for everything. The greatest scapegoat in the NHL!

Refuses to play with Bennett.
Tried to sabotage Malkin with Iginla.
Undermines Fleury's confidence.
Bullies Bylsma.
Puts numbing cream in Dupuis' gloves.
Hit Letang with his car.
Made Neal slip in the shower and mess up his shoulder.
Tells Glass to be a worse player and that he can't make Adams look bad.
Gives Adams sleeping pills before games.
Makes Orpik, Glass and Niskanen watch Under the Dome to lose IQ points.
Demands to play with Kunitz and Dupuis because it reminds him of KD.
Told Neal that working too hard can cause male pattern baldness.
Gives Malkin tanning oil and says it's sunscreen.
Makes Shero draft defensemen so as not to threaten him.




Maybe you're right, but he looks shockingly thin for an NHL player that isn't a goalie and I don't think it would hurt. More weight would help make up for the lack of Sutterness. Maybe he's the milkman's?

If Beau is a fixture next to Geno and Jeffrey with Sutter, then he has little use to this hockey team.

He's a hot and cold player. And Nisky seems to be loved by this coaching staff/management. It's just an opinion man.

But I suppose agreeing that trading Nisky is inevitable is more useful conversation. Especially when Despres could very well be in danger of getting passed over in our depth chart.

Hey, as noted, I'd be fine with JJ on a 4th line a la Satan. But, not with Glass and Adams. If it was JJ-Vitale-Adams, for example . . .

If Maatta stays up I'll be beyond shocked.

I will be too. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. You asked me who would be the better playoff performer. IMO, you give Maatta a season, then he'll give you more in the playoffs than Niskanen will. Plus, my gut tells me that Nisky at LD with Borts is like oil and water. Maatta just reminds me of Staal. You watch, love the promise, but say there's no way this kid is going to stay up. Then, he just keeps getting exponentially better by the game. IMO, if Maatta plays with ice in his veins in that zoo in Philly, with all the shenanigans, and with ice in his veins with the Sedins or Duchense or Tavares coming at him, then I don't know what you do. As I said, Nisky just has his limitations, and they show when he gets hit again and again and on against the sustained cycle.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

We should bring in Sutter's dad as a player redevelopment coach and consultant.

 

[Captain Hook]

If Maatta stays up I'll be beyond shocked.

Yeah, I agree. He's played very well but I think he'd greatly benefit from going back to junior, playing huge minutes in all situations and continuing to work and develop all the different parts of his game.

The situation kind of reminds me of Staal's when he was a rookie. Staal stayed as a rookie and scored a lot of goals thanks to a crazy shooting percentage. He still mostly played a limited defensive role though and I'm still not sure he wouldn't have been better off in the long-term going back to junior, playing tons of offensive situations and developing his game more.

 

[Shady Machine]

If Beau is a fixture next to Geno and Jeffrey with Sutter, then he has little use to this hockey team.

He's a hot and cold player. And Nisky seems to be loved by this coaching staff/management. It's just an opinion man.

But I suppose agreeing that trading Nisky is inevitable is more useful conversation. Especially when Despres could very well be in danger of getting passed over in our depth chart.

I don't disagree that the organization likes Niskanen, but we need to make room for these guys. Despres is needed on this blueline. Guys that are his size and can skate like that are rare. I hope the org sees that.

Bennett should be with Crosby, Jokinen with Geno and Duper with Sutter. You know that, I know that. I totally disagree that he has little use to this hockey team if Bennett is with Geno though. A third line of Kobasew, Sutter, Jokinen is cool with me. Keep Jeffrey as 13th forward or 4th liner with Vitale, Adams. Having 2 guys in Jeffrey and Jokinen that can move up and down the lineup and play multople positions is huge.

We have so much defensive depth that trading Niskanen won't make us worse.

 

[radapex]

Late goals are a killer. Was 2-1 Bridgeport until Conner put in a rebound with 2.2 seconds left in the 2nd period.

Somewhat disappointing to see Deslauriers as the starter, but he did the job. Next Baby Pens game isn't for a week.

That's not a good sign for Hartzell... to have a guy on a PTO start the season opener ahead of you. Especially when you've got a week off before the next game.

 

[66-30-33]

Yeah, I agree. He's played very well but I think he'd greatly benefit from going back to junior, playing huge minutes in all situations and continuing to work and develop all the different parts of his game.

The situation kind of reminds me of Staal's when he was a rookie. Staal stayed as a rookie and scored a lot of goals thanks to a crazy shooting percentage. He still mostly played a limited defensive role though and I'm still not sure he wouldn't have been better off in the long-term going back to junior, playing tons of offensive situations and developing his game more.

I wonder if Maatta will play at the Olympics? he will be at the WJC for sure unless injured.

 

[radapex]

2012-13 Corsi relative to the quality of competition

6 centers faced tougher competition than Sutter last season. none of them were even close to starting as much in the defensive zone, and look at his offensive zone finish %. if you look down a little you'll see Bolland with lesser numbers there as well. an added bonus with Sutter is that he doesn't take penalties and draws a good number. it's nice to know your best defensive forward will usually be available to kill penalties.

is he perfect? no. but he just turned 24, is cheap, and will probably stay cheap since his offensive numbers are avg at best (given his role). he's also very calm, which is a nice balance for the 3 stars on the team.

I think people were just spoiled by having Staal center the third line for so long. Sutter is exactly what he is - a third line center. His production is essentially going to be the same as what Cooke provided on the third line: 15-20 goals and 30-40 points. That's what you get from third liners...

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Yeah, I agree. He's played very well but I think he'd greatly benefit from going back to junior, playing huge minutes in all situations and continuing to work and develop all the different parts of his game.

The situation kind of reminds me of Staal's when he was a rookie. Staal stayed as a rookie and scored a lot of goals thanks to a crazy shooting percentage. He still mostly played a limited defensive role though and I'm still not sure he wouldn't have been better off in the long-term going back to junior, playing tons of offensive situations and developing his game more.

Agreed. IMO, he needs more time to physically develop to be ready for a season and postseason in the NHL, and the logjam needs to be managed. I really don't want the guy messed up.

2013-2014
Bortuzzo - Despres

2014-2015
Martin - Despres
Bortuzzo - Maatta (depending on how he's come along)/other prospect

Assess how Martin is aging and how the prospects are developing, and how Scuderi is.

I think people were just spoiled by having Staal center the third line for so long. Sutter is exactly what he is - a third line center. His production is essentially going to be the same as what Cooke provided on the third line: 15-20 goals and 30-40 points. That's what you get from third liners...

I don't have a problem with his production.

 

[mpp9]

I don't disagree that the organization likes Niskanen, but we need to make room for these guys. Despres is needed on this blueline. Guys that are his size and can skate like that are rare. I hope the org sees that.

Bennett should be with Crosby, Jokinen with Geno and Duper with Sutter. You know that, I know that. I totally disagree that he has little use to this hockey team if Bennett is with Geno though. A third line of Kobasew, Sutter, Jokinen is cool with me. Keep Jeffrey as 13th forward or 4th liner with Vitale, Adams. Having 2 guys in Jeffrey and Jokinen that can move up and down the lineup and play multople positions is huge.

We have so much defensive depth that trading Niskanen won't make us worse.

This has all been regurgitated many times over. I'm posting an alternative based on the situation at hand. Neal and Letang on IR. Jeffrey, Beau and Maatta getting legit opportunities. Despres in WBS. Nisky getting praise left and right.

To act like it's not a possibility is just silly.

 

[Captain Hook]

I think people were just spoiled by having Staal center the third line for so long. Sutter is exactly what he is - a third line center. His production is essentially going to be the same as what Cooke provided on the third line: 15-20 goals and 30-40 points. That's what you get from third liners...

Agreed. Sometimes you don't really know and appreciate what you have until it's gone.

 

[Tender Rip]

Lots of good stuff that has been covered.

I think Sutter is getting a bit if a raw deal among some. Thought he made numerous good plays in this one. Bortuzzo is focused on a bit less because of Maatta novelty, but he was enormous in this one. So was Scuderi again.
Lots of good interplay on Malkin's line but I still worry that ultimately it will need more jam than Jokinen when we face real opposition.

Negatives - seeing the numerous occasions where two thirds of Malkin's line is out there with Glass or Adams.
Thinking about Dupuis being a Pen for four years at 3.75 per. We could put Bennett on the top line and Jeffrey permanently on the third and all we'd miss would be a bit of speed while getting 3 million extra in cap room and have the potential to add someone who is needed more.

Ah well... heresy I suppose.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Realistically they should break up the top PP into two separate entities. They finally have the personnel to do it with too.

Having Crosby and Malkin both out there seems to just muddy the waters too much. Too many chiefs and too few indians.

I've wanted that to happen for a long time, but it likely never will with Bylsma at the helm.

Sid & Geno having their own powerplay units with a mixture of - Neal, Kunitz, Bennett, Jokinen, and Dupuis for wingers and then Letang, Niskanen, and Martin for point guys or for directing traffic and holding the line would be nice to see, it would also give teams a tough time defending against 2 power play units like that, which one out of the best unit do you put out against Sid? Then you risk having the weaker one against Geno. It's logical, so of course, Bylsma won't do it.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

I wonder if Maatta will play at the Olympics? he will be at the WJC for sure unless injured.

he's right on the borderline fighting it out with a few other guys for the last pairing (Ristolainen being one).

 

[mpp9]

I think people were just spoiled by having Staal center the third line for so long. Sutter is exactly what he is - a third line center. His production is essentially going to be the same as what Cooke provided on the third line: 15-20 goals and 30-40 points. That's what you get from third liners...

Again. Not discussing production. It's the ability to win a damn battle for a loose puck. DJ has shown more in that department while being out of his natural position.

 

[Captain Hook]

Yeah, I don't get playing Malkin with Glass or Adams. I kind of get it at the very end when you may want a grinder that will scrap if someone tries something dirty with Malkin but the rest of the time it's just stupid.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah, I agree. He's played very well but I think he'd greatly benefit from going back to junior, playing huge minutes in all situations and continuing to work and develop all the different parts of his game.

The situation kind of reminds me of Staal's when he was a rookie. Staal stayed as a rookie and scored a lot of goals thanks to a crazy shooting percentage. He still mostly played a limited defensive role though and I'm still not sure he wouldn't have been better off in the long-term going back to junior, playing tons of offensive situations and developing his game more.

Replace junior with AHL and that logic works for Despres, I loved how people acted like the world is ending with Simon being sent down

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Again. Not discussing production. It's the ability to win a damn battle for a loose puck. DJ has shown more in that department while being out of his natural position.

DJ deserves better, plain and simple. If he gets moved and says nothing but nice things about Bylsma, he deserves to have his face put on the ring of honor.