Confirmed with Link: ColePens Said ANYTHING for the B2B Cup (Hornqvist traded to Florida for Matheson + Sceviour)

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Finally went through, huh? Ah well. Hope Matheson kills it, but since JR seems to have specifically targeted the guy, I'm sure he'll be godawful.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The "Hornqvist is old and lost a step or two" argument is so blatantly wrong. It just wrong. Now people can be concerned about injuries. That is a thing. But if you are going to hold that mentality, then you also have to hold it for Sid, G, and Letang, Murray, oh idk.. anyone who wears black/gold.

I do.

They're all just a bunch of meatbags like you and me.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Do we have any evidence that Hornqvist made us tougher in the last two years though?

Like I know the guy’s tough as a rock, but was it actually causing any of our opponents problems when he wasn’t on the ice?

 

[mpp9]

Goals per 60: 33rd
Primary assists per 60: 81st
Rel xGF%: 131st
Rel SCF%: 131st
Rel HDCF%: 135th

People were fine with trading for this player and giving up McCann. But, Matheson is awfulllll.

BTW, Montour is going to get close to what Matheson's actual cap hit is.

Yeah. Montour wasn't exactly great for Buffalo and we were mostly interested in what he was with Anaheim. Same principle applies here IMO.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Do we have any evidence that Hornqvist made us tougher in the last two years though?

My feels.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It’s crazy the amount of feels that this trade involves.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The thing about Hornqvist is that it was either him or Rust, and Hornqvist was the right choice to go for a bunch of reasons, imo. He was never gonna be a top-6 player for us again with Geno having Rust and the Sid/Hornqvist thing. He was supposed to be some otherworldly PP specialist, but we've had a struggling PP for way too long. Every other team in the league operates without a Hornqvist, we'll be fine without him as well. Well, I mean, we're kinda shit, but what I meant is that this team's chances don't rely entirely on Hornqvist's presence.

Also, the wheels are gonna come off sooner rather than later, and it's best not being the team stuck holding the ~$5.5 million AAV contract when that happens. I'd guess if we didn't move him for Matheson specifically, it'd have been for another Matheson-caliber, boom or bust guy--or we'd have just paid Seattle to take him in a year anyway.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also, wasn’t the big buzz word the last two seasons that we’ve gotten away from our speedy uptempo roots? Now the CW is that we need to get slower and tougher, right?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It’s crazy the amount of feels that this trade involves.

Not to sound like some sort of iamsosmart neckbeard but I saw that coming a mile away.

Like I said in one of the PH-related threads below... his situation has been fairly obvious for like 2ish seasons but nobody was going to ever come around on it because "warrior" "soldier" "heart and soul" etc. I'm not trying to be mean, divisive or otherwise shitty about this but Pittsburgh fans, in particular, love their blue collar ham n' egger types. It isn't even really an indictment. I find it relatable and nice, more often than not.

But at the same time... we have the audacity to make fun of Chicago fans re: Toews for the "USS Leadership" stuff.

This trade still blows, though.

 

[ColePens]

Do we have any evidence that Hornqvist made us tougher in the last two years though?

Like I know the guy’s tough as a rock, but was it actually causing any of our opponents problems when he wasn’t on the ice?

There were games along the season where he would just do his thing and the team gained energy from it. The same technically could be said for Tanev, til Tanev disappeared and handed the Habs the final goal to nail our coffin.

I also think on the powerplay it was significantly different when Horny was doing his thing in front of the net. And if you don't think it matters, the playoffs this year have had A TON of goals where net front presence does make an actual difference.

Lastly there is a part of hockey a lot of people don't get, and the Isles actually did it well but Dallas/Tampa do it VERY well. Movement away from the puck and how it creates space. Cutting/knifing through lanes does way more than anyone will give it credit for. The difference between a shot on net and a block is a split second or a few inches of space. The cut through lanes really opens space. If you choose to skate the perimeter and just pass through 3 people - expect it to fail.


That's just my opinion.

 

[TNT87]

Much rather have them retain on Matheson and not include Scevior. Of course having cap space might mean that JR would sign another Matt Hunwick.

Just get rid of JJ please. It's all I want this offseason.

Welcome to Pittsburgh Matheson.

 

[Gurglesons]

There were games along the season where he would just do his thing and the team gained energy from it. The same technically could be said for Tanev, til Tanev disappeared and handed the Habs the final goal to nail our coffin.

I also think on the powerplay it was significantly different when Horny was doing his thing in front of the net. And if you don't think it matters, the playoffs this year have had A TON of goals where net front presence does make an actual difference.

Lastly there is a part of hockey a lot of people don't get, and the Isles actually did it well but Dallas/Tampa do it VERY well. Movement away from the puck and how it creates space. Cutting/knifing through lanes does way more than anyone will give it credit for. The difference between a shot on net and a block is a split second or a few inches of space. The cut through lanes really opens space. If you choose to skate the perimeter and just pass through 3 people - expect it to fail.

That's just my opinion.

Dallas and Tampa have the best activated defense in the league. That is their strength. Zucker and Guentzel are great at being net front presences.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Not to sound like some sort of iamsosmart neckbeard but I saw that coming a mile away.

Like I said in one of the PH-related threads below... his situation has been fairly obvious for like 2ish seasons but nobody was going to ever come around on it because "warrior" "soldier" "heart and soul" etc. I'm not trying to be mean, divisive or otherwise shitty about this but Pittsburgh fans, in particular, love their blue collar types. It isn't even really an indictment. I find it relatable and nice, more often than not.

And we have the audacity to make fun of Chicago fans re: Toews for the "USS Leadership" stuff.

This trade still blows, though.

Yep. Definitely not what I was hoping for with a Hornqvist trade, and I've been wanting a Hornqvist trade for a long time.

But, the reality is he's probably not that valuable an asset, and this team's going to have to go the boom or bust route for fixing all its problems anyway. Like, if we go after a 3C, I'm sure it'll be a guy like Haula who may come cheap because of injury worries and a rough year (which wasn't even that bad, but the injury issue is still worrisome), but if he can regain his Vegas form, it'll be great. Obviously, as with anything we do, huge if.

 

[ColePens]

Dallas and Tampa have the best activated defense in the league. That is their strength. Zucker and Guentzel are great at being net front presences.

Movement. 100% Movement. I think both go hand-in-hand but movement. I challenge people to not watch the puck in these games and watch what happens all around. Then do the same for the Pens. The only guy doing it is Hornqvist.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yep. Definitely not what I was hoping for with a Hornqvist trade, and I've been wanting a Hornqvist trade for a long time.

But, the reality is he's probably not that valuable an asset, and this team's going to have to go the boom or bust route for fixing all its problems anyway. Like, if we go after a 3C, I'm sure it'll be a guy like Haula who may come cheap because of injury worries and a rough year (which wasn't even that bad, but the injury issue is still worrisome), but if he can regain his Vegas form, it'll be great. Obviously, as with anything we do, huge if.

I agree. It wasn't that I was expecting more... I think that PH has far less value than we might like to think. And honestly I really do like the TYPE of player MM is. I just have no faith in JR and watching him go after expensive defensemen that the numbers say are 3rd pairing on long contracts can't help but make my stomach turn.

I thought it was hilarious that they somehow managed to wring YET ANOTHER bottom six grinder outta this deal, too. Disco would be proud.

 

[Gurglesons]

Movement. 100% Movement. I think both go hand-in-hand but movement. I challenge people to not watch the puck in these games and watch what happens all around. Then do the same for the Pens. The only guy doing it is Hornqvist.

Cool. I guess Florida is about to become a contender then.

I just haven't seen Hornqvist or really any of our forwards besides Zucker and Jake having a positive influence on this roster over the past two seasons.

I could care less if we traded every single forward that played in the playoffs the last two years except for Crosby and Malkin.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I agree. It wasn't that I was expecting more... I think that PH has far less value than we might like to think. And honestly I really do like the TYPE of player MM is. I just have no faith in JR and watching him go after expensive defensemen that the numbers say are 3rd pairing on long contracts can't help but make my stomach turn.

I thought it was hilarious that they somehow managed to wring YET ANOTHER bottom six grinder outta this deal, too. Disco would be proud.

I hope Matheson tears it up, though. Not just because of the trade, but because we've needed a guy like his potential ceiling for a long time.

 

[ColePens]

Cool. I guess Florida is about to become a contender then.

I just haven't seen Hornqvist or really any of our forwards besides Zucker and Jake having a positive influence on this roster over the past two seasons.

Ahhh come on with that. That is so internet twitter style. You are better than that.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ahhh come on with that. That is so internet twitter style. You are better than that.

I just don't see the value of a 34 year old that has multiple concussions on a deal with cap, term and trade protection Cole.

If he was like Kris Letang and just put up his best offensive numbers in a major role with us last year without having a Crosby or Malkin on his line, I'd argue differently, but Hornqvist is basically a glorified power play guy that brings a unique skillset to the team, but who at this point is slower, less skilled and injured a good portion of the year. I mean, dude could literally have another concussion and be done.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I hope Matheson tears it up, though. Not just because of the trade, but because we've needed a guy like his potential ceiling for a long time.

No doubt.

Doesn't matter, though. Doomed before they even begin. And has nothing to do with this trade.

 

[Lust for Life]

Both parties are right on this one in my mind.

When you're doing a big shake-up not involving the big three, it does make a whole lot of sense to trade the oldest guy with one of the biggest cap hits. It really does.

At the same time, he has a style of play that's pretty unique and is going to be a bitch to replace, should you want to.

 

[MayorofWBS]

Goals per 60: 33rd
Primary assists per 60: 81st
Rel xGF%: 131st
Rel SCF%: 131st
Rel HDCF%: 135th

People were fine with trading for this player and giving up McCann. But, Matheson is awfulllll.

BTW, Montour is going to get close to what Matheson's actual cap hit is.

Montour sucks too but I doubt he get a 6 year contract. Well unless JR is shopping for more defenseman.

 

[Gurglesons]

Montour sucks too but I doubt he get a 6 year contract. Well unless JR is shopping for more defenseman.

I still don't understand why six years matters if so many of the posters here are on board that are window is the next two years?

 

[MayorofWBS]

Why does every tinfoil-hat Penguins fan think being tough to play against is "slower, tougher and fighting"?

 

[Pens1566]

The thing about Hornqvist is that it was either him or Rust, and Hornqvist was the right choice to go for a bunch of reasons, imo. He was never gonna be a top-6 player for us again with Geno having Rust and the Sid/Hornqvist thing. He was supposed to be some otherworldly PP specialist, but we've had a struggling PP for way too long. Every other team in the league operates without a Hornqvist, we'll be fine without him as well. Well, I mean, we're kinda shit, but what I meant is that this team's chances don't rely entirely on Hornqvist's presence.

Also, the wheels are gonna come off sooner rather than later, and it's best not being the team stuck holding the ~$5.5 million AAV contract when that happens. I'd guess if we didn't move him for Matheson specifically, it'd have been for another Matheson-caliber, boom or bust guy--or we'd have just paid Seattle to take him in a year anyway.

I think this is where I've moved to on this deal.

With MM, you might get an improvement/return on what he was last year similar to Schultz/Nisky/Daley. He's still young-ish, and at least has the skill part down. Hope for improvement with coaching/scenery change/usage diffs/etc.

Horny, I just see him with no real role on the team. He's not gonna play top 6, he's not a checking line guy, and he stands still on the PP. He's only going to go downhill from here, and I'd expect that to be fast based on the abuse he takes, and his injury history. Guys like him tend to fall hard and fast.