Confirmed with Link: ColePens Said ANYTHING for the B2B Cup (Hornqvist traded to Florida for Matheson + Sceviour)

[ChaosAgent]

I'm stuck on anger.

Next will be grief for the demise of the Penguins, courtesy of JR and Sully.

The aging of Crosby, Malkin and Letang has closed our cup window.

But JR & Sully are expediting it to "closing our playoff window."

 

[Jaded-Fan]

 

[Lustaf]

Hello. I'm going to leverage your likely interest in Matheson as a means of distracting my brain if you don't mind...tough week for your old pal, Mikey...had to say goodbye to my 14 year old golden retriever, my mother had surgery to remove a cancerous tumor, and my favorite player gets traded away from my favorite team...tough one, eh? haha. Anyway, forgive the mostly c&p stuff...I reference something else I had written about experimenting with a rover type and going with 7 D and 11 F (copy cat league, after all)...so if you see my reference something that you haven't seen, it's that and don't worry too much about it...

Anyway, enjoy...or don't...it's just one person's thoughts on it...

I just watched a few Matheson games and then a select few clips of things that I can filter out of his game play...and, to be honest, this is what I said in another post - this is basically that guy...a wanderer, a wild card, a fourth forward...I just might have done it without the $30 million investment...maybe, like, I don't know, $800,000 on a Nikita Nesterov or Marc-Andre Gragnani type (dated references I know)...

Anyway, here we are...first thing's first: the skating. He has wheels. He probably has the best skating stride on the team right now, very fluid, very natural. First step quickness is terrific and he's got speed to burn. Four-way mobility is elite or near-elite. There's a little bit more skill there than meets the eye, but it's not consistent. It's also not channeled correctly for me. So, one thing that I like with fast players is just knowing when to change gears...slow up, bait a guy in, change the gap, change the angle and then misdirection, or then hit'em with the speed. MM doesn't do that...he'll start skating fast with the puck and then see a speed bump and just go faster...as a result, he loses the handle on a lot more pucks than he should because it's really hard to make plays at top speed. As easy as Sid and Geno have made it look over the years, it's hard. It's a real separator and one that you really need a keen eye to spot. That's why guys like Hunter Shinkaruk and what not not fail...but, this is the problem with players where skating is the best asset - it sounds good, but is it really...?

So his natural reaction when pressured on the zone exit (which he skates well out of the zone with the puck, it's a big plus for this team) is to get faster, get outside, and get it on his backhand...kind of a three strikes and out scenario there...it's just tough to make good plays, at speed, from your backhand...you look at the difference in play between Nikolaj Ehlers in his early years vs now, that's the key difference: pace and poise, the gear change...really made him into a semi-star in this league right quick...Matheson doesn't get that. This is why you have to be careful with kind of, I don't want to say, "fake", but like fake analytics or really half-truths...you can skate the puck out of the zone all the live long day, you can skate it in...but unless you're going somewhere with it, unless something fruitful comes from it, you're a detriment. You're wasting rushes...you're wasting zone time. So you have to be careful not to get suckered into that kind of stuff...

I think his shot is good...I've seen the wrister, the slapper, I've seen a couple of one-t's...it's got some decent enough zip on it (more so than his passes in terms of crispness for me). Doesn't get a lot of shots from the interior, I looked at his shot attempt charts and watched a bunch of them...he can't really work it inside...a lot of it from the high left corner of the attack zone...so again, we're talking about wasted mobility there almost...that's a player that could walk the line probably, or even cut into that mid-layer with a give n' go play behind the high defensive winger, but he just doesn't think the game out that fast...

Even watching him support the rush (meaning, he doesn't have the puck but is joining the rush), he doesn't identify the lanes and areas that would support it ideally. For those that have seen my few YT videos, the one on Evan Bouchard comes to mind here. He'll follow up the rush, right up the ass of a forward...so, he's not open...no one passes to the human centipede, ya know? There's other times when you see him have an opportunity to widen out and create depth to the attack at the line, maybe even get an isolation play in the high attack zone, but he's just not in the right spot for it.

As I'm typing it out, there's just this weird thing that clicked into my head...he really just doesn't have a great grasp of where he is at any time...I've seen him try to be the last man back defensively and end up in the middle of the crease...I watched him go back on a retrieval and have his heels clack off the kick plate and nearly knock him off his saddle...he really needs the ol' "You are here" star that you see in malls or whatever...but it leaks into his defensive play too...very inconsistent gap...he's not as sharp, nah, that's not it, not as...concise? Maybe that's the word, on his edges as I'd like, especially with backward C-cuts, he leaks and oozes into other lanes and out of position...sometimes he'll out backpedal the speed of the rush...and by the time he realizes it, he doesn't absorb it really well...so then he's sitting there playing catching up in what was an even-numbered situation...he turns his back a lot to the play...he'll take these headlong pokecheck attempts and then curl back outside and have to try to play defense from outside in, which is a fool's errand for most...

Definitely a stick checker...I couldn't find a meaningful hit really...oh, speaking of, here's another one of those detail things that's really lacking for me...you have wheels, right? You got 30 sheets to skate. So when you go back on puck retrievals, use the wheels. Some guys slow up when they don't have heavy pressure on them on the forecheck, they lollygag back, allow the forechecker to gain some speed, and then the d-man kisses the glass and rims it D-to-D. But that's not efficient, especially if you have gifts to the contrary...so, what I teach my d-men is...when you turn, shoulder check, and then zip back there and get the puck because then you can swing the net, and moreover, you can get your head around...you can play on your forehand...everybody wants to play on their forehand and except maybe Sid and Paul Kariya...everyone else needs to. So Matheson eats so many unnecessary hits because of this lacking detail...if anything, Sergei Gonchar probably would have taught him that...on heavy forecheck pressure, Sarge slowed up (later in his career he got the old muleta out even), absorbed some of the pressure early on...then used his skill to win the battle. So, MM has that backwards for me...some defense coaches may disagree, and that's fine...

I don't know his vitals...looking at him on the ice, I'd say he's about 6'3" 175...he's very weak on his skates for me. I watched him take on a bunch of challenges in a row against the Isles, and I'm not sure Marcus Pettersson couldn't take him for a ride...so, part of me thinks, if anyone is gonna go from the left, it's Pet-Pet, not Johnson...say what you will about Johnson, but the guy is a vending machine at least...

So this is the risk play that I was kind of looking out for when I was talking about playing 7 D earlier...there's a situation where this guy works, there's an out for him...we're much faster on the backend than we were yesterday...he's more skilled than some of the guys we have...but again, you have to preface that with, crudely, "useful skill" and "vacuum skill"...he might have better hands than Dumo, but Dumo might have him on useful skill...he might not, I'm just kind of getting more acquainted with where he's at right now, it's been a while since I've really dialed in on him...

But, I mean, look...sometimes the numbers lie, and sometimes they don't, right?

ES scoring:
7 goals, 8 assists
9 goals, 13 assists
8 goals, 11 assists
7 goals, 11 assists

This is a d-man. You think this guy is dropping Erik Karlsson UFO saucers on Mike Hoffman's tape from his own 5 yard line...? Probably not, right? I'm not convinced that we didn't let go the coaches that salvage these players...and if we did in fact do that, let him roam...groom what you can, but this guy with 30 feet of runway is gonna get it into the zone for us and he'll be the first guy on it too as F1...I'm a big believer in defense pinching, I'm a big believer in having that momentum and speed come from behind the puck (look at Jon Cooper's Lightning, for instance)...we really don't have a multi-line carrier from the back line anymore, Sid isn't as dynamic in space as he once was...so if this guy wants to skate three miles a night, let's harness it and try to work off of it...

If this is just a (better) Brett Lebda regen, well, whatever...we're younger and faster than we were yesterday. Hornqvist is my favorite player and my spirit animal, so it sucks to see him go in this fashion. He's exactly what Florida needs and I wish him well. But let's see where this goes...he did play some RD (and LW), and frankly, I might go RD with him because he'll get the interior shots more, he needs the boards and glass to exit less than any other non-Letang d-man, and he doesn't fundamentally play defense in a way where this should negatively affect him...so, go nuts for donuts...play him on the right side of Jack...or if they're out against Casey Mittelstadt and Luca C-unti (what a censor, this is a real player) only, then play him with Pettersson...

And with Sceviour, I mean, you kind of know what this is...you got a RHS forward for the fourth line...not a lot to say about him, I had some time for him a few years ago... thought he was one of the league's better fourth liners, now I think at 31 we're talking about just your regular fork and spoon operator here...skating is good, not where it used to be...I do still like his shot release actually, I thought he had a pretty decent release when I covered him for Dallas way back in the day...this is a kid who really worked his way, I think he was an overager in the WHL, he spent a while on the bus in Texas, wasn't an NHL regular til like 25 or 26...he'll kill penalties all day long for ya, but not a ton else...he can't do a lot with the puck while his feet are moving, so that's a detriment, a lot of throwaways...I wish he was tougher to play against, but that's just how it goes...I don't think he moves the needle much, even in a fourth line role...I think I've seen him play his wrong side, so if ZAR ends up losing his seat, maybe this is where it ends up...he takes the odd faceoff too...but he's just a regular fourth liner for me give or take...pronounced SEE-vee-yuhr (I'm never great at those) by the way...

I don't know...it's tough with these kind of guys...is he a better shooting, less physical Kuhnhackl...? I don't know, probably not...just, whatever, you guys will figure it out soon enough...

Thank you for all that.

Sorry to hear about your pup, and I hope your mother recovers.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The aging of Crosby, Malkin and Letang has closed our cup window.

But JR & Sully are expediting it to "closing our playoff window."

Mate, our window was firmly closed the moment JR & Sully placed a JJ sized turd in front of the window so no one opens it again for a while.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

He averaged 15:49 a night, playing with ZAR (who had an extremely good season defensively) and Tanev. "4th line" is just a title. They still had favorable matchups too. That could easily be a 3rd line on mediocre and bad teams.

Like I said I like Blue a lot, but I don't see a 40 point guy there. Don't see him being that much better than last year. Hope I'm wrong cuz we'll need the help with this manager in charge.

70% defensive zone start and they had favorable starts? Mate, I get it, he's not the sexy name you want for 3C, but he is a 3C caliber player and the Pens not seeing that will soon result in him walking when he's a free agent or his demands force them to release or move him and we get to watch him be a damn good player in that role, for someone else.

 

[JackFr]

Are we basing this literally on just the last season? Or do those fancy stat wankers have anything to compare in regards of Matheson's play season by season?

It's easy to trash a bloke on his worst year without taking in to context his previous years to get a better average. Imagine if people ran a business like that.

I mean, I can literally speak to that. The numbers I posted are from a 3 year weighted average and show a timeline of the past three seasons. Micah's model uses prior seasons as well.

This was his best season statistically, especially defensively. But he's actually been relatively consistent. I only used his transition numbers from 2016-19 because he played some forward this year.

 

[JackFr]

I think some of the stuff you in Farkas pointed out is just inherent with Panthers hockey. They are the most undisciplined systemless team in the league.

Well, we'd better hope so I guess. I don't know if I agree, especially this season with Quenneville stepping in.

I just didn't see a lot of hockey IQ from him.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I mean, I can literally speak to that. The numbers I posted are from a 3 year weighted average and show a timeline of the past three seasons. Micah's model uses prior seasons as well.

This was his best season statistically, especially defensively. But he's actually been relatively consistent. I only used his transition numbers from 2016-19 because he played some forward this year.

A couple of defensemen have played forward for the Panthers from what I can remember, just an observation rather than an in addition to comment, that Panthers group wasted so much cap on Bobs and certain players, they used D as their depth forwards, yikes.

Petrovic (before), Pysyk, Matheson, and I believe even Brown played forward for that team.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Some of the things @Mike Farkas pointed out, I think Reirden & Co can coach out of his game, but there will always be tendencies he will have, old habits, that will be impossible to iron out. But his positional play on the rush, what he does with the puck while he skates it out of the zones, I think those can be fixed.

All he needs is enough hockey IQ and the willingness to learn and be open to it.

I recall Dmitry Orlov being an adventure in his own end before Reirden joined that team, he's smoothed out a lot of the wrinkles in his game to be a decent defenseman (same with Kempny), but it also depends on the talent of the player. I'm not expecting a miracle out of Reirden, but Matheson has enough good with the bad to be a decent project that could pay off.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Deleted

 

[Gurglesons]

Well, we'd better hope so I guess. I don't know if I agree, especially this season with Quenneville stepping in.

I just didn't see a lot of hockey IQ from him.

Yeah, I think that’ll be the biggest question. Can Marino and Reirden get him to simplify his game enough to outweigh the brain farts?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah, I think that’ll be the biggest question. Can Marino and Reirden get him to simplify his game enough to outweigh the brain farts?

I have faith in them being able to, well Reirden, we can't expect Marino to do anything but be a solid defenseman like he has been. So really, Reirden and whatever Sullivan and Vellucci can do with the bloke.

It's not like Matheson is dumb as a pile of shit like Jack Johnson. There's some intelligence in some of the things Matheson does, he has a lot of bad habits that to me, sound and look like things that could have been coached out of his game if someone took a better approach with him. It remains to be seen if Reirden can be the person to figure that out with his game.

I mean so far it's that he skates too fast and forgets where he is and what he should do while he's skating too fast. I think Reirden can work with that.

Whereas, you can't fix the train filled with elephant turds, on fire, that is Jack Johnson.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

70% defensive zone start and they had favorable starts? Mate, I get it, he's not the sexy name you want for 3C, but he is a 3C caliber player and the Pens not seeing that will soon result in him walking when he's a free agent or his demands force them to release or move him and we get to watch him be a damn good player in that role, for someone else.

No you don't get it. I don't care about sexy names.

I care about getting a ~20 goal, ~20 assist 3C, to compensate for when our top 6 go to sleep. Funds and assets should have been allocated towards that goal, instead of overloading a defense corps that was already set. That included using Murray or the 1st.

He's used in a defensive role because that's what he does best.

I'll be very happy if he produces like you claim he will. But I don't expect those 3 to recreate that chemistry in January. HBK certainly didn't.
I like him at 4C more. We had enough assets to roll out a good forward corps again. MAYBE Poulin makes a push to help out, but I don't see it. We're probably gonna use that plug Sceviour.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Deleted

What we all wish Jack Johnson, Rutherford, and Sullivan were.

 

[YYCLetangStan]

I don’t know what to make of this trade. I don’t even know where Sceviour fits in in the top-9. 3rd line RW next to McCann?

Matheson is a train-wreck in his own end. We have enough of those on the bottom pairing.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don’t know what to make of this trade. I don’t even know where Sceviour fits in in the top-9. 3rd line RW next to McCann?

Matheson is a train-wreck in his own end. We have enough of those on the bottom pairing.

I don't have Sceviour in my top-12.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Idk why some think our window is closed. We won it all with a worse lineup than this. We now have two very good LWs for Sid and Geno. We now have two very good RWs for both as well.

McCann will be improved. Poulin will add a needed spark to the team. Blueger should be improved. Tanev will have another year of experience here. Like McCann, Zucker, Marino, etc.

We have just about the same lineup finally for the first time in awhile. Except for Horny being gone and out of 3RW purgatory. And Matheson instead.

JJ wont continue to " curse us". Still dont get why his contract is talked about like he is being paid over 6mil a year. Like plenty of teams around the league have. Its not that bad. As long as he doesnt play its fine. Even if we are stuck with it for now. Would rather not be but if Poulin makes the team, Marino would also be on his ELC for next year. Its something we can afford for now.

We didnt have perfect rosters for the b2b cups.

The biggest thing other than Jarry being able to carry us to a cup, is Sullivan. If this roster cant do anything then he needs to go. So many are underestimating what a full year of Guentz/Zucker in the top 6 will do for us. Along with Kap and Rust. McCann will be 24 and another year of experience here. Forget about whether he will be 3LW or 3C, he will add scoring for the bottom 6 , period. So would Poulin if given the chance. Then Tanev/Blueger.

And since our D is basically set, expect another forward back from the Murray trade. Thats 11 forwards who can make an impact. Couldnt care less who the 12th one is.

Its about coaching. Its about our system. If he cant get it done, time for another change. So we can win another cup or two

 

[Andy99]

Can we please stop pretending like Pens coaches are the only ones who know how to coach defense and that they can work miracles by fixing broken players? A change of scenery can help, as can more experience, but it didn’t help Jack Johnson...a low IQ player is not going to suddenly gain smarts

 

[Honour Over Glory]

No you don't get it. I don't care about sexy names.

I care about getting a ~20 goal, ~20 assist 3C, to compensate for when our top 6 go to sleep. Funds and assets should have been allocated towards that goal, instead of overloading a defense corps that was already set. That included using Murray or the 1st.

He's used in a defensive role because that's what he does best.

I'll be very happy if he produces like you claim he will. But I don't expect those 3 to recreate that chemistry in January. HBK certainly didn't.
I like him at 4C more. We had enough assets to roll out a good forward corps again. MAYBE Poulin makes a push to help out, but I don't see it. We're probably gonna use that plug Sceviour.

Blueger was on pace to put up 26pts while getting incredibly heavy DZ starts with 2 players that could barely score on an open net. ON the 4th line. Tanev barely out paced him while getting more opportunities in the top 9.

He was on a 29pt pace in his 28 game stint before last season. Blueger has the talent and hockey smarts to be able to produce closer to 40pts given a less restrictive deployment and better linemates that can actually finish. People forget, Blueger wasn't some 5th or later pick. He was taken in the 2nd round, he has far more pedigree than people want to realize, or admit.

The only knock anyone can have on Blueger is that his faceoffs winning percentage should be better, he was at around 45% and that's something that can be fixed if Malkin can go from dreadful to pretty decent, so can he with the hockey IQ that Blueger displays.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don’t know what to make of this trade. I don’t even know where Sceviour fits in in the top-9. 3rd line RW next to McCann?

Matheson is a train-wreck in his own end. We have enough of those on the bottom pairing.

Ideally, he's rotating with Lafferty on the 4th line RW.

 

[EightyOne]

This all just hurts my head

 

[AuroraBorealis]

And since our D is basically set, expect another forward back from the Murray trade. Thats 11 forwards who can make an impact. Couldnt care less who the 12th one is.

With what money? We have 6.1 mil left, to re-sign Jarry, Simon and Lafferty. What about an ELC contract for POJ or Poulin?

Idk why some think our window is closed. We won it all with a worse lineup than this. We now have two very good LWs for Sid and Geno. We now have two very good RWs for both as well.

Because mindset is everything. And this team isn't hungry enough anymore. They are satisfied. We saw that in game 4 against Montreal.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Can we please stop pretending like Pens coaches are the only ones who know how to coach defense and that they can work miracles by fixing broken players? A change of scenery can help, as can more experience, but it didn’t help Jack Johnson...a low IQ player is not going to suddenly gain smarts

You can take on reclamation projects and lottery tickets. But a 6-year deal is marrying one.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

This all just hurts my head

Now you know how JJ feels literally all the time when he tries to think.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Blueger was on pace to put up 26pts while getting incredibly heavy DZ starts with 2 players that could barely score on an open net. ON the 4th line. Tanev barely out paced him while getting more opportunities in the top 9.

He was on a 29pt pace in his 28 game stint before last season. Blueger has the talent and hockey smarts to be able to produce closer to 40pts given a less restrictive deployment and better linemates that can actually finish. People forget, Blueger wasn't some 5th or later pick. He was taken in the 2nd round, he has far more pedigree than people want to realize, or admit.

The only knock anyone can have on Blueger is that his faceoffs winning percentage should be better, he was at around 45% and that's something that can be fixed if Malkin can go from dreadful to pretty decent, so can he with the hockey IQ that Blueger displays.

Let's just revisit this in January. I'll believe it when I see it. I expect him to become sort of a ghost and the top 6 will have to full carry, as usual.

Remember when everyone was so hyped about Guentzel having time to return for the Montreal series? What did he do in those 4 games again? Oh...

A lot of empty words were used on that topic it turns out.