Player Discussion: Cole Perfetti 10th OA Pick - signed ELC 9/11

[surixon]

just because you're on a defensive line it doesn't mean you never use your offense. you think roslovic just forgot offense because he spent a year playing on the 3rd line? really? Copp's and Lowry's lines actually tilts the ice positively interms of shot and chance share so comparatively, they are spending more time producing shots rather than against.

again, he's been given ample opportunity in top 6 last 2 seasons, plays the pp. idk if it's due to maurice, or he just isn't good enough, probably a mix of both.

I would agree its likely due to both but I think he actually played pretty well in the top 6 last season he just didn't have much to show for it. His goal production was pretty good and his primary point production was okish. He didn't pick up any secondary assists to boost his numbers though.

It doesn't so much matter for him now though as he is only likely to get injury spot duty there for us moving forward barring us trading Laine.

I brought it up as I am a bit concerned how Moe will use Perfetti if he breaks him in on a bottom 6 line.

With Cole I would like to see a more Tampa approach to his development. Put him on at center in a sheltered third scoring line and let him get comfortable and work his way up.

 

[DRW204]

I would agree its likely due to both but I think he actually played pretty well in the top 6 last season he just didn't have much to show for it. His goal production was pretty good and his primary point production was okish. He didn't pick up any secondary assists to boost his numbers though.

It doesn't so much matter for him now though as he is only likely to get injury spot duty there for us moving forward barring us trading Laine.

I brought it up as I am a bit concerned how Moe will use Perfetti if he breaks him in on a bottom 6 line.

With Cole I would like to see a more Tampa approach to his development. Put him on at center in a sheltered third scoring line and let him get comfortable and work his way up.

playing top 6 and having nothing to show for is not good. it does nothing for us as a team. he was carried by ehlers and wheeler in terms of shot/chance share stats. and the year before he was even worse with Little and Laine.

 

[surixon]

playing top 6 and having nothing to show for is not good. it does nothing for us as a team. he was carried by ehlers and wheeler in terms of shot/chance share stats. and the year before he was even worse with Little and Laine.

Anyhow it doesn't much matter as I doubt the org sees him as a top 6 option at this point so no use continuing to discuss him.

 

[ps241]

Man did they get that one wrong.

They were in good company seems like 30 NHL teams didn't think he was a top 75 pick that year?

 

[surixon]

I'm just bummed that we won't be able to talk about his camp performance for another two weeks.

Looks like team Canada is going to have to pick their team based on prior information.

 

[Atoyot]

They were in good company seems like 30 NHL teams didn't think he was a top 75 pick that year?

That's not what being picked 76th means though. That just means that when their turn came to pick, that individual team had somebody higher on their list. A team could pick 45, have Point on their list at 30, but still have #29 on their list available so they go with that pick. I would bet heavily that most teams had Point higher than 76.

EDIT: 79th rather than 76th.

 

[surixon]

That's not what being picked 76th means though. That just means that when their turn came to pick, that individual team had somebody higher on their list. A team could pick 45, have Point on their list at 30, but still have #29 on their list available so they go with that pick. I would bet heavily that most teams had Point higher than 76.

EDIT: 79th rather than 76th.

I think the point is most missed hard on their analysis and had him rated far too low on their lists. I think you always bet on skill especially if the work ethic is there. Skating and strength can be Improved upon to a great extent if the will is there. There is much less room for growth in terms of talent and smarts.

 

[ps241]

That's not what being picked 76th means though. That just means that when their turn came to pick, that individual team had somebody higher on their list. A team could pick 45, have Point on their list at 30, but still have #29 on their list available so they go with that pick. I would bet heavily that most teams had Point higher than 76.

EDIT: 79th rather than 76th.

Technically you are right as far as the numerical ranking so to restate my point in a different fashion when Point made it to the mid 3rd round the entire market in general clearly chunked it in the woods.

 

[Atoyot]

Technically you are right as far as the numerical ranking so to restate my point in a different fashion when Point made it to the mid 3rd round the entire market in general clearly chunked it in the woods.

Agree 100%. I wanted to trade into the 2nd round to get him, then was flabbergasted when we took Glover and he was still on the board. Though I'm not sure he would have ever gotten the same opportunity here that he has in Tampa.

 

[KingBogo]

Agree 100%. I wanted to trade into the 2nd round to get him, then was flabbergasted when we took Glover and he was still on the board. Though I'm not sure he would have ever gotten the same opportunity here that he has in Tampa.

#1 centers make their own opportunities, they don't need to be given them.

 

[Atoyot]

#1 centers make their own opportunities, they don't need to be given them.

Impossible to argue either side of that debate with facts without access to parallel universes, but if we had that access I'd put any money on whatever odds you asked for on that being wrong.

For this specific scenario though, given that we have players in the lineup who played their whole lives as centers, that in their limited time as centers in this league have shown that they're more useful and comfortable at center than wing, and Maurice has come to the conclusion that he likes them better on the wing than center, you don't think it's possible that a player like Brayden Point could have come into the lineup and never gotten the opportunity as a center? That he could have been deemed too small to play that role, given that there are many coaches every year who look at undersized players and think "they'll never be a center in this league"? I think half the teams in the league would have developed Point as a winger.

Here's a thought on opportunity, Tampa just won the cup without a single forward picked in the first round, save 2 minutes of Stamkos. Do you think those players get the opportunities they did in Tampa everywhere? Opportunity is important, I don't doubt some players force hands, but I also have no doubt that there have been players that could have been more but never got their opportunity.

 

[Whileee]

Agree 100%. I wanted to trade into the 2nd round to get him, then was flabbergasted when we took Glover and he was still on the board. Though I'm not sure he would have ever gotten the same opportunity here that he has in Tampa.

Glover... ugh!

One of the few misses by Giese?

 

[KingBogo]

Impossible to argue either side of that debate with facts without access to parallel universes, but if we had that access I'd put any money on whatever odds you asked for on that being wrong.

For this specific scenario though, given that we have players in the lineup who played their whole lives as centers, that in their limited time as centers in this league have shown that they're more useful and comfortable at center than wing, and Maurice has come to the conclusion that he likes them better on the wing than center, you don't think it's possible that a player like Brayden Point could have come into the lineup and never gotten the opportunity as a center? That he could have been deemed too small to play that role, given that there are many coaches every year who look at undersized players and think "they'll never be a center in this league"? I think half the teams in the league would have developed Point as a winger.

Here's a thought on opportunity, Tampa just won the cup without a single forward picked in the first round, save 2 minutes of Stamkos. Do you think those players get the opportunities they did in Tampa everywhere? Opportunity is important, I don't doubt some players force hands, but I also have no doubt that there have been players that could have been more but never got their opportunity.

I'm guessing if Chevy drafted Kuch and Point Maurice would be thrilled to be playing them on the first line.

 

[Atoyot]

I'm guessing if Chevy drafted Kuch and Point Maurice would be thrilled to be playing them on the first line.

Again, impossible to tell without parallel universes and easy to say with the success they're having now, but you honestly can't imagine a scenario where Point is deemed too small to be a center, so he's put on the wing? There's a potential shot to his confidence in a very critical part of his career developmentally. Maybe it's hard to adjust to a new position, another shot and also could give off the impression where the powers that be are watching a kid struggle and attribute it to his overall game rather than the specific situation he's in. So, since he's not burning it up as a winger, and he'll never make it as a center because he's too small, suddenly he's playing fewer minutes on a team, getting fewer opportunities, all while he needs to be developing. Maybe now he's lost confidence and starts to think about other careers, fall back plans in case this hockey thing doesn't work out, so now the time that he puts into training his game is lessened because there's only so much time in a day and he needs to focus on said fall back plans.

That's a ton of hypotheticals to the point where it's just silly, but I'd say that exact scenario is more likely than the idea that every player who could be a #1 center is because that's who they are and nobody has ever gotten left by the wayside because of lack of opportunity.

 

[KingBogo]

Again, impossible to tell without parallel universes and easy to say with the success they're having now, but you honestly can't imagine a scenario where Point is deemed too small to be a center, so he's put on the wing? There's a potential shot to his confidence in a very critical part of his career developmentally. Maybe it's hard to adjust to a new position, another shot and also could give off the impression where the powers that be are watching a kid struggle and attribute it to his overall game rather than the specific situation he's in. So, since he's not burning it up as a winger, and he'll never make it as a center because he's too small, suddenly he's playing fewer minutes on a team, getting fewer opportunities, all while he needs to be developing. Maybe now he's lost confidence and starts to think about other careers, fall back plans in case this hockey thing doesn't work out, so now the time that he puts into training his game is lessened because there's only so much time in a day and he needs to focus on said fall back plans.

That's a ton of hypotheticals to the point where it's just silly, but I'd say that exact scenario is more likely than the idea that every player who could be a #1 center is because that's who they are and nobody has ever gotten left by the wayside because of lack of opportunity.

Sorry man, I have no interest in chasing you down this rabbit hole. I've yet to see TNSE give up on a prospect that went on to another organization to prove them wrong. Until that happens I will trust they know what they are doing especially considering the development of Scheifele, Trouba, Morrissey, Helly, Ehlers, Connor, Laine Copp etc.

 

[surixon]

I'm guessing if Chevy drafted Kuch and Point Maurice would be thrilled to be playing them on the first line.

He would use Point as he is now as a center no questions asked but that isn't the question being asked. The question being asked is would Maurice start a 20 year old 5"10 not overly big rookie Point at center and allow him to grow into that role the same way Tampa did.

Keep in mind its not like Point was instantly an elite center. He took a few years to blossom into that 90 point elite center. Would that have happened under Maurice here or would Maurice would have moved him to the wing right from the get go to play Lowry and his vet Little big minutes at center? Even if Point played extremely well at wing would Maurice even entertain moving him back to the middle or would he rather move a vet Wheeler to the middle.

I think these questions are highly relevant because we have continually seen Maurice do everything but give the younger potential centers such as a Roslovic or even Petan a shot at a skilled center position even when there are injury vacancies. He would rather convert his veteran RW to center then to give a kid an opportunity. To me that speaks volumes of the amount of discomfort he has with regards to trusting a young player in a key position. Had Mark not already been a center for this team prior to Maurice getting here I wonder just what would have transpired with him.

I sincerely hope that Chevy has laid out what is expected with Cole and his development to the coach. Maurice can't be allowed to get in the way of it. Cole needs the freedom to be able to grow his game in the center position and if that is uncomfortable for Maurice then too bad.

 

[Whileee]

He would use Point as he is now as a center no questions asked but that isn't the question being asked. The question being asked is would Maurice start a 20 year old 5"10 not overly big rookie Point at center and allow him to grow into that role the same way Tampa did.

Keep in mind its not like Point was instantly an elite center. He took a few years to blossom into that 90 point elite center. Would that have happened under Maurice here or would Maurice would have moved him to the wing right from the get go to play Lowry and his vet Little big minutes at center? Even if Point played extremely well at wing would Maurice even entertain moving him back to the middle or would he rather move a vet Wheeler to the middle.

I think these questions are highly relevant because we have continually seen Maurice do everything but give the younger potential centers such as a Roslovic or even Petan a shot at a skilled center position even when there are injury vacancies. He would rather convert his veteran RW to center then to give a kid an opportunity. To me that speaks volumes of the amount of discomfort he has with regards to trusting a young player in a key position. Had Mark not already been a center for this team prior to Maurice getting here I wonder just what would have transpired with him.

I sincerely hope that Chevy has laid out what is expected with Cole and his development to the coach. Maurice can't be allowed to get in the way of it. Cole needs the freedom to be able to grow his game in the center position and if that is uncomfortable for Maurice then too bad.

Maurice developed Scheifele as a C, even though he started as a weak player physically. I really don't see evidence to suggest that Maurice is hide-bound on size as a key determinant of role or effectiveness.

 

[surixon]

Maurice developed Scheifele as a C, even though he started as a weak player physically. I really don't see evidence to suggest that Maurice is hide-bound on size as a key determinant of role or effectiveness.

Its more defensive ability then size. He takes a while to trust players defensively to use them at center. He would rather have them study on the wing for a couple of seasons prior to going into the middle full time. That seems to be what he likes to do with his more skilled centers that he has had in Roslovic, Harkins, Petan, heck even Copp played a lot of wing his first three years as well.

With regards to Mark, he had already forced his way into the second line center spot ahead of Olie by the time Maurice took over. Yes Maurice played a big role in his development but Scheifele was already playing as an everyday center in the second line spot when he arrived. I think picking up the development of a player already somewhat established and showing that they can perform in a role is a bit different then developing them from day 1. It is the difference between seeing someone doing something and the speculation someone may do it, and I think Maurice who I would dub very risk adverse has some issues with the latter. I feel that is why you see Wheeler move into the middle instead of giving Roslovic an extended look at center for instance.

Scheifele in the 17 games prior to Maurice taking over was tied for the team lead in points with Wheeler while averaging 18:30 per game. He was also driving shots at an elite level with a 54 CF%. I mean any coach would have seen how well Mark was playing as a center at that time and continued to groom him.

I think Cole will prove an excellent case study in assessing Maurice's ability to develop a skilled center from scratch. How will he go about doing it and ultimately will it be successful. I have my thoughts on how it should be done but we will just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[surixon]

just because you're on a defensive line it doesn't mean you never use your offense. you think roslovic just forgot offense because he spent a year playing on the 3rd line? really? Copp's and Lowry's lines actually tilts the ice positively interms of shot and chance share so comparatively, they are spending more time producing shots rather than against.

again, he's been given ample opportunity in top 6 last 2 seasons, plays the pp. idk if it's due to maurice, or he just isn't good enough, probably a mix of both.

They do tilt it, but they tilt it via being elite at suppressing other teams chances not by generating a whole whack of them themselves.

 

[Mud Turtle]

With Cole I would like to see a more Tampa approach to his development. Put him on at center in a sheltered third scoring line and let him get comfortable and work his way up.

Agree. Too bad that’s never going to be an option as long as Adam Lowry is here.

 

[Whileee]

I would agree its likely due to both but I think he actually played pretty well in the top 6 last season he just didn't have much to show for it. His goal production was pretty good and his primary point production was okish. He didn't pick up any secondary assists to boost his numbers though.

It doesn't so much matter for him now though as he is only likely to get injury spot duty there for us moving forward barring us trading Laine.

I brought it up as I am a bit concerned how Moe will use Perfetti if he breaks him in on a bottom 6 line.

With Cole I would like to see a more Tampa approach to his development. Put him on at center in a sheltered third scoring line and let him get comfortable and work his way up.

Point started at C with Palat and Kucherov as his most common line as a rookie.

 

[surixon]

Point started at C with Palat and Kucherov as his most common line as a rookie.

So Tampa sheltered him quite nicely as a rookie center Hopefully we see the same with Cole when he makes it.

Edit: I think you mean Killorn instead of Kucherov though as he and Palat were his most common linemates that year which would have been their second or third line depending on how the other lines shook out.

An equivilant line for Cole would be Copp on one wing and one of our top 6 RW or Ehlers on the other.

 

[Finnflash]

I think Cole did enough to make team canada.

I even liked his physical game more.

He isn’t at the point where Chuck Noris will wear Cole Perfetti underwear but it will come.

 

[ps241]

I think Cole did enough to make team canada.

I even liked his physical game more.

He isn’t at the point where Chuck Noris will wear Cole Perfetti underwear but it will come.

In the scrimmages he was one of the top forwards on team red and did way more than Byfield but most of this will be what the coach and GM of team Canada wants. Are they going to build a skilled team or are they going to want grit and tenacity to be prominent?

Honestly with the current fiasco with team Canada and the overall Covid challenges in Canada right now does this thing stay on the rails?

 

[Finnflash]

In the scrimmages he was one of the top forwards on team red and did way more than Byfield but most of this will be what the coach and GM of team Canada wants. Are they going to build a skilled team or are they going to want grit and tenacity to be prominent?

Honestly with the current fiasco with team Canada and the overall Covid challenges in Canada right now does this thing stay on the rails?

Keep the faith brother. Not that the tournament is more important than what is going on in the world but I believe we will prevail.

If not for the simple reason to give me more video to watch while I’m cooped up in my house. Lol

Seriously though, I for one understand this “Covid fatigue” and how Covid has hurt my business and killed one of my friends. But I’ll refuse to give in and let it win.

I’ll continue to believe that this will pass soon.