Confirmed with Link: COL trades Barrie(50% retained)/Kerfoot/2020 6th to TOR for Kadri/Rosen/2020 3rd

[Spirits]

Send him back to Colorado, you can pick one of EJ, Zads or Cole to replace him with!

...Babs would love Cole...

You would let Z go for Barrie??? Come on man!

 

[cgf]

Crazy? Ian Cole can't skate, can't handle the puck, "steps up in the playoffs" to not-completely-terrible...at least when not committing Zads-level-stupid penalties...and most importantly he comes from a very traditional hockey family.

I wouldn't be surprised if Babs used footage of Cole to show Tyson how he wanted him to play.

 

[cgf]

You would let Z go for Barrie??? Come on man!

Is that a serious question? Zads has been one of my two favorite avs since we acquired him -- Zads & Landy flip flop in the top spot; landy being prettier & playing the way I tried to as a kid; zads having all of the charisma -- but Barrie is simply better at hockey, by a wide margin. So yeah, I'd rather improve our team than keep the Zadorable Giant.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

You would let Z go for Barrie??? Come on man!

Is this just a joke post? Has to be right?

 

[Spirits]

Is that a serious question? Zads has been one of my two favorite avs since we acquired him -- Zads & Landy flip flop in the top spot; landy being prettier & playing the way I tried to growing up; zads just have all of the charisma -- but Barrie is simply a lot better at hockey. So yeah, I'd rather improve our team than keep the Zadorable Giant.

I liked Barrie when he was here. I like him more knowing we aren't going to be out of pocket the money him and Newport thinks he is worth. He isn't reliable in the D Zone and Makar is looking to be about twice as good as Barrie at least. I think Z is more important for this team than Barrie would be, given Makar's probable ceiling (top 3 league). I don't know how you can justify giving up Z for Barrie at this point. Please elaborate if possible?

Z almost singlehandedly took Matt Tkachuk out of his game in the Flames series last year...

 

[Spirits]

Is this just a joke post? Has to be right?

No, we don't need Barrie. We have what Barrie brings, only far better. Z has grit and is better in his own zone than Barrie ever was. I'm not saying Z is a shut down at all, but he may be a late bloomer and has gotten better every year he has been here, not as many ups and downs.

 

[LTC Pain]

Keep Z. Sign him to a three year/$4M per deal. With Byram developing, forget Barrie.

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

I'd keep Z over Barrie too, based on team needs. Makar seems more than capable of making up for the o-zone production that we lost when Barrie departed. But Barrie does not even remotely get close to the level of d-zone responsibility of Z. Not that Z is a magician and flawless, but Barrie was too easily pushed around.

 

[cgf]

I liked Barrie when he was here. I like him more knowing we aren't going to be out of pocket the money him and Newport think he is worth. He isn't reliable in the D Zone and Makar is looking to be about twice as good as Barrie at least. I think Z is more important for this team than Barrie would be, given Makar's probable ceiling (top 3 league). I don't know how you can justify giving up Z for Barrie at this point. Please elaborate if possible?

I don't know what more to say other than he's a lot better and our blue would improve immensely if he were to rejoin the squad. Makar isn't an argument against adding Barrie in any way; as having both of them would be amazing...see our playoff run last spring when having those two on the ice for ~45 minutes a night neutered Calgary's forecheck and for stretches even scared the Sharks off of launching low-percentage shots at net.

Zads must be great for the locker-room and his hits can change momentum; at least when he's not sent to the box for being too-big. But that doesn't erase the braindead mistakes he makes, even when he's in top form...like the one that cost us so dearly against the Sharks...or the penalty minutes that he manages to rack up even with playoff refs.

TL;DR:
#3 > #5

 

[cgf]

I'd keep Z over Barrie too, based on team needs. Makar seems more than capable of making up for the o-zone production that we lost when Barrie departed. But Barrie does not even remotely get close to the level of d-zone responsibility of Z. Not that Z is a magician and flawless, but Barrie was too easily pushed around.

Our blueline didn't become a difference-maker until we were able to throw one of them out there for ~45 minutes a night. So Cale would need to make up for not just Barrie's minutes...which he hasn't replaced in full, yet (~19 vs ~14 ES min)...but also his own PT. At least until Byram/Timmins are able to tilt the ice for us when Cale isn't out there and so they replaced the minutes we got from Cale last spring.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Barrie is better than Z but due to team's need I keep Z as well right now. This team needs Z more right now than Barrie. Oh and let's not pretend that Barrie doesn't have braindead mistakes as well, even when he is in top form.

Now Cole....yeah I'll take Barrie back with open arms.

 

[Spirits]

I don't know what more to say other than he's a lot better and our blue would improve immensely if he were to rejoin the squad. Makar isn't an argument against adding Barrie in any way; as having both of them would be amazing...see our playoff run last spring when having those two on the ice for ~45 minutes a night neutered Calgary's forecheck and for stretches even scared the Sharks off of launching low-percentage shots at net.

Zads must be great for the locker-room and his hits can change momentum; at least when he's not sent to the box for being too-big. But that doesn't erase the braindead mistakes he makes, even when he's in top form...like the one that cost us so dearly against the Sharks...or the penalty minutes that he manages to rack up even with playoff refs.

TL;DR:
A #2/3 > #5

I don't understand this love affair with a Defenseman that is ONLY good in the O Zone and gives up constant 2 on 1s. You can say Z makes "braindead mistakes" but somehow Tyson is absolved of all of his because he puts up 60 points? The guy simply doesn't play defense, at all. Can't win puck battles and is worse than our rookie doing what he does best. What do you do with the cap by keeping Barrie? How would you manage that?

Btw, having Makar is an argument for not bringing Barrie back. Salary cap, kinda important. I would not be keen on stunting Makar's growth so Barrie can QB PP1 or get O Zone starts. We don't need to pay 7-9 million for someone worse than Makar at every aspect of hockey.

 

[Ceremony]

Not that it's relevant to the thread, but Zadorov should be given a contract for life and be allowed to do whatever he wants for the duration of it.

 

[Avsboy]

Not that it's relevant to the thread, but Zadorov should be given a contract for life and be allowed to do whatever he wants for the duration of it.

The Pasta Pass of contracts

 

[Pokecheque]

I don't understand this love affair with a Defenseman that is ONLY good in the O Zone and gives up constant 2 on 1s. You can say Z makes "braindead mistakes" but somehow Tyson is absolved of all of his because he puts up 60 points? The guy simply doesn't play defense, at all. Can't win puck battles and is worse than our rookie doing what he does best. What do you do with the cap by keeping Barrie? How would you manage that?

I don't think he gives up "contstant 2-on-1s". He requires the forwards to drop back in the event he jumps into the play and provide support. He had that in Colorado, he doesn't have that in Toronto.

And WTF was up with that reporter's question?

Anyway, it ain't happenin', Barrie's gone and he's not coming back. The Avs appear to be doing fine without him, and I can only hope Tyson eventually finds himself in a better situation and a coach who actually knows what the f*** he's doing.

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

Our blueline didn't become a difference-maker until we were able to throw one of them out there for ~45 minutes a night. So Cale would need to make up for not just Barrie's minutes...which he hasn't replaced in full, yet...but also his own PT.

They only played together in the playoffs last year for what, 10 games? Barrie played 474 games for the Avs without Makar. Makar eventually will be a direct swap out for Barrie minutes-wise I'm sure, he may not be there yet though. We don't necessarily need more production from the blueline and we sorely need more defense-capable defensemen especially given the demise of Cole and EJ. I don't see why Makar needs to make up time for two offensive d-men. I still stand by Z fills our needs more than Barrie does, because our needs are defense, not offense and with the forthcoming contracts we don't need another bloated salary.

 

[SaltySkywalker]

the infatuation for players that have left this org, whether in a trade or FA is astounding to me. Our team keeps getting better and better as we make moves and improve and yet we are clamoring to get old players back. Idk, man.

 

[Spirits]

They only played together in the playoffs last year for what, 10 games? Barrie played 474 games for the Avs without Makar. Makar eventually will be a direct swap out for Barrie minutes-wise I'm sure, he may not be there yet though. We don't necessarily need more production from the blueline and we sorely need more defense-capable defensemen especially given the demise of Cole and EJ. I don't see why Makar needs to make up time for two offensive d-men. I still stand by Z fills our needs more than Barrie does, because our needs are defense, not offense and with the forthcoming contracts we don't need another bloated salary.

Well said.

 

[Ceremony]

the infatuation for players that have left this org, whether in a trade or FA is astounding to me. Our team keeps getting better and better as we make moves and improve and yet we are clamoring to get old players back. Idk, man.

Well when the bottom six has been woeful since Jay McClement left, can you blame people?

 

[cgf]

They only played together in the playoffs last year for what, 10 games? Barrie played 474 games for the Avs without Makar. Makar eventually will be a direct swap out for Barrie minutes-wise I'm sure, he may not be there yet though. We don't necessarily need more production from the blueline and we sorely need more defense-capable defensemen especially given the demise of Cole and EJ. I don't see why Makar needs to make up time for two offensive d-men. I still stand by Z fills our needs more than Barrie does, because our needs are defense, not offense and with the forthcoming contracts we don't need another bloated salary.

Correct...and during the first 464 of those games our blueline vacillated between a massive weakness and mostly-passable. Which is why we'd need Cale to eat 45 minutes a night or to get him some help, to turn our blueline back into an advantage.

the infatuation for players that have left this org, whether in a trade or FA is astounding to me. Our team keeps getting better and better as we make moves and improve and yet we are clamoring to get old players back. Idk, man.

What does one have to do with the other?

I don't understand this love affair with a Defenseman that is ONLY good in the O Zone and gives up constant 2 on 1s. You can say Z makes "braindead mistakes" but somehow Tyson is absolved of all of his because he puts up 60 points? The guy simply doesn't play defense, at all. Can't win puck battles and is worse than our rookie doing what he does best. What do you do with the cap by keeping Barrie? How would you manage that?

Because the bolded simply isn't true and doesn't describe the player that Barrie was for us accurately

Barrie has flaws, but he's not the Hunnybunny/Cumiskey that you're describing. Tyson objectively made fewer mistakes, while providing us with a lot more between those mistakes...which included more than just the point totals; although you're not alone in perpetuating the myth that puck-movement only matters on the score sheet, ignoring all of the other benefits of quality puck-movement.

As avs fans...who had to watch Cole & EJ launch icing after icing, while hoping that they didn't give back all of the momentum that our other pairings had built up...we really should know better than to buy into that antiquated ideology, but I don't argue with ideologues. So it is what it is. If you disagree, then that's your prerogative, but I'm not really interested in arguing this any further. I've made my point & I'm sorry for having let myself get involved with another Barrie-debate.

 

[Spirits]

What does Barrie do better than Makar?

I think you have rose colored glasses on about Barrie. He was good and his play helped get us into the playoffs but he isn't someone that will be worth the $ he is asking for (presumably) and apparently Sakic agrees with me and that is why he was dealt. It wasn't because he didn't benefit us, he simply wasn't going to be worth what some team will pay for him and we have his heir apparent on the roster. Don't forget Girard too. He can move the puck as well. I don't see where Barrie fits in on this roster with the salary cap issue looming large.

EJ & Cole, I agree with your assessment. Ice the puck, ice the puck, ice the puck. I get it and I am with you here.

As far as puck movers go, we have Makar, Girard and Byram coming up. Where do we fit in an overpriced, one dimensional Defenseman that can't play defense? Please address the salary cap as this is an issue you keep avoiding (presumably because it is the dagger in your plan?).

 

[Spirits]

If you disagree, then that's your prerogative, but I'm not really interested in arguing this any further. I've made my point & I'm sorry for having let myself get involved with another Barrie-debate.

You haven't made your point. You simply said, "I like Barrie and wish he was here" essentially. Which I am fine with, these are just opinions but I am very interested in hearing how you manage the cap after that. The issue is cost and you won't address that for some reason even though the rest of your posts are well constructed and reasonable.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I said it before...this team needs a Byram/Timmins-type player much more than they need Barrie back. Does the team need another PMD? Yes absolutely but it needs to be a guy that is also fairly strong in his own zone as well in order to take some of those important minutes guys like EJ, Cole and Graves have right now. We have replaced Barrie's points with Makar's. Now we need to replace Girard on the top line so we can play in a more suitable role as a #3-4 dman. I would argue that our problem at D this season stems a lot more from Girard struggling in a top role than losing Barrie. Bring him back down one notch and replace him with a true two-way dman capable of around 40 pts and strong defensive play and this team is even much better. Now the question is: Does Sakic gambles (an educated gamble mind you) on one of these two panning out in that role and waiting for him to do so or does he go and acquire onather dman that would fill that role in the meantime? The latter wouldn't be cheap of course.

 

[Pokecheque]

What does Barrie do better than Makar?

We really gotta do this again?

Barrie has been well-established as one of the better puckmoving defensemen in the league. He is tremendous at skating the puck out of danger and into the attacking zone to create offense. He is also able to get shots through traffic on the power play. Makar is proving himself already to be a better long-distance passer, and better defensively, and while his ability to drop down low and snipe it in is really starting to show up, his shot from the point is nowhere near as good as Barrie's. Maybe it will be someday, but it isn't now. I think their puckmoving ability may be comparable at this point, but it's hard to say.

Personally I find the constant comparisons a bit unfair. One guy was a fourth-overall pick. The other got snagged in the third round. Why do they have to be compared? As I've said before, the team bet on Makar (and to a lesser extent, Girard) to replace the offense lost from Barrie. So far that's been a good bet. But I also don't think it's been a seamless transition.

Not everyone is pining for Barrie to return, I just want the guy to land on his feet, get his payday, and enjoy the rest of his career (and hopefully banish Babcock back to the 90s where he belongs).

 

[cgf]

You haven't made your point. You simply said, "I like Barrie and wish he was here" essentially. Which I am fine with, these are just opinions but I am very interested in hearing how you manage the cap after that. The issue is cost and you won't address that for some reason even though the rest of your posts are well constructed and reasonable.

This topic got a lot of discussion last year and many of us are sick of re-hashing it; so I don't wanna annoy folks by 'continuing to bring Barrie up'; which is why I shouldn't have responded to this thread in the first place. So if you really want, there are some essays in my posting history about it and if the crappy search function can't help you find them, I can check my bookmarks at some point to see if I have any of them saved so I could PM them to you.

...but I dunno if it'll accomplish much, based on the way you describe Tyson I suspect that we just see the game radically differently. As I don't really care whether a goal is prevented by a dude breaking up the cycle by force, or if a goal is prevented because our guy won the puck-race for a dump-in and had the talent to move us up ice right away...but if you forced me to pick, I'd say that the latter is even more valuable at ES because it puts the other team on the backfoot more; keeping more constant pressure on them.


Re: the cap;
Realistically, it would've required Joe to be more cold-blooded with the last year (or two) of EJ's contract than I suspect he is capable of...and it would've become even more important that we stop overpaying depth guys like Cole, Calvert & Compher as much, to minimize how much Retooling we'd need to do by the time MacK & Mikko's next contracts kicked in...but the math is doable if you play around on capfriendly/excel, even without the cap rising dramatically.

So if you really want I'm sure I can figure out my capfriendly password to find the examples I provided of how the next 4-5 seasons...beyond which there's just way too much uncertainty...could've worked out if we had been able to fill our 2C hole without losing Barrie; and PM those to you too. But I'm pretty sure that the trade-Barrie folks don't love seeing yet another wall of text from me about this...not to mention that I'm just not in the mood to pound out another diatribe atm