Confirmed Signing with Link: [COL] Avs Sign Devon Toews (4 Years, $4.1M AAV)

[AvatarAang]

I mean even this is part of my point haha, Toews is a lot more than a great top 4 defenceman

No he isn’t. Despite his fantastic season, Toews is not good enough to be the top D on a playoff team. He is not a legit top pairing D, overvaluing him is just as bad as undervaluing him.

 

[Patagonia]

No he isn’t. Despite his fantastic season, Toews is not good enough to be the top D on a playoff team. He is not a legit top pairing D, overvaluing him is just as bad as undervaluing him.

Toews plays on the Top line averaging the most minutes per game of any AVs player. Team has the best record, #1 GF and #3 GA in the entire league. Can you explain not being good enough when he already plays for the top team?

 

[Spilot23]

No he isn’t. Despite his fantastic season, Toews is not good enough to be the top D on a playoff team. He is not a legit top pairing D, overvaluing him is just as bad as undervaluing him.

He's absolutely a top pairing dman on one of the favorite team to win the Stanley Cup and will be a crucial part of the team if we do manage to win also signed at 4.1M$ for the next 3 years damnn. He is no Makar in term of game breaking talent but he is our most steady dman reliable in all situation.

 

[flyfysher]

No he isn’t. Despite his fantastic season, Toews is not good enough to be the top D on a playoff team. He is not a legit top pairing D, overvaluing him is just as bad as undervaluing him.

Has it ever occurred to you that what constitutes a top D-man depends on how the team is constructed?

The Avs system under Bednar allows the top D-men to thrive in his puck possession, transition oriented game.

Girard - top playmaker

Makar - D-man equivalent of MacKinnon. Terrorize them with his offense.

Toews - outstanding D, especially on the PK.

I'll take this set up any day. Versatility at its finest.

You want a traditional top D-man? Seth Jones is sitting out the POs.

 

[AvatarAang]

Has it ever occurred to you that what constitutes a top D-man depends on how the team is constructed?

The Avs system under Bednar allows the top D-men to thrive in his puck possession, transition oriented game.

Girard - top playmaker

Makar - D-man equivalent of MacKinnon. Terrorize them with his offense.

Toews - outstanding D, especially on the PK.

I'll take this set up any day. Versatility at its finest.

You want a traditional top D-man? Seth Jones is sitting out the POs.

Lmao is this a joke? Is your argument that Toews is better because he’s on a top playoff team while Columbus sucks?

If Seth Jones was on Colorado, and Devon Toews was on Columbus, do you actually believe that Columbus would be a playoff team and Colorado wouldn’t?

It’s not an insult to be a great top 4D. The Avs don’t need Toews to be a top pairing D because their D is stacked. It’s one of the best overall groups in the league, but Makar is the only one I’d actually consider a top pairing D.

I still can’t believe you are trying to compare Toews/Jones, wow.

 

[AvatarAang]

Toews plays on the Top line averaging the most minutes per game of any AVs player. Team has the best record, #1 GF and #3 GA in the entire league. Can you explain not being good enough when he already plays for the top team?

So by your logic, Zach Hyman is a 1st line winger?

The Avs have one of the best overall D groups in the entire league, I’m not sure if there are many teams I would choose over them if any at all.

That doesn’t mean Toews is a 1st pairing D. Another member tried to compare the Avs and Columbus so I’ll use them as an example again.

If Seth Jones and Devon Toews switched places, how much better off would their teams be? Do you actually think Toews is a legit top pairing D that could bring Columbus into a playoff position?

I entered this thread praising Toews thinking he was undervalued, but it’s clear there are just as many people overvaluing him.

 

[flyfysher]

Lmao is this a joke? Is your argument that Toews is better because he’s on a top playoff team while Columbus sucks?

If Seth Jones was on Colorado, and Devon Toews was on Columbus, do you actually believe that Columbus would be a playoff team and Colorado wouldn’t?

It’s not an insult to be a great top 4D. The Avs don’t need Toews to be a top pairing D because their D is stacked. It’s one of the best overall groups in the league, but Makar is the only one I’d actually consider a top pairing D.

I still can’t believe you are trying to compare Toews/Jones, wow.

Did you see how much Toews was playing minutes wise per game when Makar was out of the line up?

Anyway, I'm not trying to compare Toews and Jones. What I'm trying to do is get you to realize you have a rather narrow definition or view of what it means to be a top D. Perhaps you should try defining that first.

 

[flyfysher]

So by your logic, Zach Hyman is a 1st line winger?

The Avs have one of the best overall D groups in the entire league, I’m not sure if there are many teams I would choose over them if any at all.

That doesn’t mean Toews is a 1st pairing D. Another member tried to compare the Avs and Columbus so I’ll use them as an example again.

If Seth Jones and Devon Toews switched places, how much better off would their teams be? Do you actually think Toews is a legit top pairing D that could bring Columbus into a playoff position?

I entered this thread praising Toews thinking he was undervalued, but it’s clear there are just as many people overvaluing him.

Define what you think a top D is then. That's really the essence of the argument.

I get that you think some Avs fans are overvaluing Toews which is fair. But you should explain why you think we are overvaluing him. When Makar was out, Toews and Girard were playing upwards of 29 minutes a night IIRC. He was on the PK and he was scoring and playing great D. It was the epitome of versatility and really benefitted the Avs, especially in terms of how Bednar has the team play.

If that's the case, then the worst that can be said is that Toews is not a top D-man by your definition but he certainly fits the Avs needs in a top pairing D-man role.

I would venture to guess even Toews most enthusiastic supporters among the Islanders fans didn't foresee him excelling quite like he has with the Avs. A lot of them thought he would do well but he has really exceeded most people's expectations.

 

[AvatarAang]

Define what you think a top D is then. That's really the essence of the argument.

I get that you think some Avs fans are overvaluing Toews which is fair. But you should explain why you think we are overvaluing him. When Makar was out, Toews and Girard were playing upwards of 29 minutes a night IIRC. He was on the PK and he was scoring and playing great D. It was the epitome of versatility and really benefitted the Avs, especially in terms of how Bednar has the team play.

If that's the case, then the worst that can be said is that Toews is not a top D-man by your definition but he certainly fits the Avs needs in a top pairing D-man role.

I would venture to guess even Toews most enthusiastic supporters among the Islanders fans didn't foresee him excelling quite like he has with the Avs. A lot of them thought he would do well but he has really exceeded most people's expectations.

I think Zach Hyman is a perfect example to explain why I think Avs fans are overvaluing Toews. He can play on the top line, he can play PK, he can score etc. Does that mean he’s a legit top pairing skater? Hell no.

Just because Toews can play on the top pair, doesn’t mean he is a legit top pairing D. Again, if Toews is the best D on an NHL team, do you actually think that team is going to make the playoffs?

 

[22FUTON9]

I think Zach Hyman is a perfect example to explain why I think Avs fans are overvaluing Toews. He can play on the top line, he can play PK, he can score etc. Does that mean he’s a legit top pairing skater? Hell no.

Just because Toews can play on the top pair, doesn’t mean he is a legit top pairing D. Again, if Toews is the best D on an NHL team, do you actually think that team is going to make the playoffs?

Devon Toews, who led the avs in ice-time, led the league in +/-, came in 7th in goals scored for defensemen, 10th in average ice time per game, usually in the top 5 for a bunch of advanced stats isn’t a top pairing d-men? And you’re comparing him Hyman?
Do you really we’re the one overrating him??

You also mentioned how the avs only have one top pairing guy, which is really strange considering how the avs pretty much dominated every defensive stat that exists this year.

 

[flyfysher]

I think Zach Hyman is a perfect example to explain why I think Avs fans are overvaluing Toews. He can play on the top line, he can play PK, he can score etc. Does that mean he’s a legit top pairing skater? Hell no.

Just because Toews can play on the top pair, doesn’t mean he is a legit top pairing D. Again, if Toews is the best D on an NHL team, do you actually think that team is going to make the playoffs?

I don't watch Hyman so I can't address him from that perspective. But your unwillingness to define what you think a top pairing D-man is goes to the heart of the problem.

Define what YOU think a top D is.

 

[BigEezyE22]

So by your logic, Zach Hyman is a 1st line winger?

The Avs have one of the best overall D groups in the entire league, I’m not sure if there are many teams I would choose over them if any at all.

That doesn’t mean Toews is a 1st pairing D. Another member tried to compare the Avs and Columbus so I’ll use them as an example again.

If Seth Jones and Devon Toews switched places, how much better off would their teams be? Do you actually think Toews is a legit top pairing D that could bring Columbus into a playoff position?

I entered this thread praising Toews thinking he was undervalued, but it’s clear there are just as many people overvaluing him.

So any D < Jones isn't a top pairing caliber D?

 

[Adele Dazeem]

So by your logic, Zach Hyman is a 1st line winger?

The Avs have one of the best overall D groups in the entire league, I’m not sure if there are many teams I would choose over them if any at all.

That doesn’t mean Toews is a 1st pairing D. Another member tried to compare the Avs and Columbus so I’ll use them as an example again.

If Seth Jones and Devon Toews switched places, how much better off would their teams be? Do you actually think Toews is a legit top pairing D that could bring Columbus into a playoff position?

I entered this thread praising Toews thinking he was undervalued, but it’s clear there are just as many people overvaluing him.

Carolina has a better D group.

 

[AvatarAang]

Carolina has a better D group.

Yes you are probably right I was thinking more about competition in the West. Sakic loaded up on puck moving D and it paid off fantastically.

 

[AvatarAang]

I don't watch Hyman so I can't address him from that perspective. But your unwillingness to define what you think a top pairing D-man is goes to the heart of the problem.

Define what YOU think a top D is.

Someone mentioned that Toews is a top pairing D because he plays PK, he can score, plays on the first line etc. Since you don’t watch Hyman, I can tell you that he does those same things yet he is clearly not a legit 1st line forward.

My definition of a top D (or top F) is someone that can be the best player at that position on a cup contending team. I have confidence that Makar can be that guy. But I don’t think that Toews can be the best D on a team that expects to win the cup. He’s good, just not THAT good. Which again isn’t supposed to be an insult but if you think he’s a #1D there’s not much I can do to convince you otherwise.

 

[flyfysher]

Someone mentioned that Toews is a top pairing D because he plays PK, he can score, plays on the first line etc. Since you don’t watch Hyman, I can tell you that he does those same things yet he is clearly not a legit 1st line forward.

My definition of a top D (or top F) is someone that can be the best player at that position on a cup contending team. I have confidence that Makar can be that guy. But I don’t think that Toews can be the best D on a team that expects to win the cup. He’s good, just not THAT good. Which again isn’t supposed to be an insult but if you think he’s a #1D there’s not much I can do to convince you otherwise.

Thank you for making the attempt to define what you think is a top D-man for F for that matter. My point is that what you view as a top D may not line up with someone else's. That's why I was trying to establish a metric by which someone can actually cite stats that offer some measure of objectivity.

I think all of the Avs D men that I mentioned qualify as top D-men in different respects as I outlined in my initial response to you. Girard as a playmaker, Toews in terms of his D especially on the PK and scoring and long minutes played and Makar as the offensive terrorist on the D corps. I don't take your critique personally because others on the Avs board don't see eye to eye either about what constitutes top pairing D either. Nevertheless, the Avs have been structured very differently from a team like the Lightning. More akin to the Hurricanes. And I realize you think Toews has been really good and he has. So I appreciate that. To each their own.

 

[AvatarAang]

So any D < Jones isn't a top pairing caliber D?

Cool so you’re just going to ignore my response and then take it to the complete extreme. I’ll just respond to the other posters who are contributing to a meaningful discussion, have a good day!

 

[AvatarAang]

Thank you for making the attempt to define what you think is a top D-man for F for that matter. My point is that what you view as a top D may not line up with someone else's. That's why I was trying to establish a metric by which someone can actually cite stats that offer some measure of objectivity.

I think all of the Avs D men that I mentioned qualify as top D-men in different respects as I outlined in my initial response to you. Girard as a playmaker, Toews in terms of his D especially on the PK and scoring and long minutes played and Makar as the offensive terrorist on the D corps. I don't take your critique personally because others on the Avs board don't see eye to eye either about what constitutes top pairing D either. Nevertheless, the Avs have been structured very differently from a team like the Lightning. More akin to the Hurricanes. And I realize you think Toews has been really good and he has. So I appreciate that. To each their own.

Thank you for not criticizing me and being open to other viewpoints. I agree with you, the Avs have a great D system which I think benefits a lot from the fact that they have a lot of puck moving D. Do you even have any “shutdown” D on your team anymore, everyone on the backend seems like they can score.

But after reading the many responses from Avs fans I still disagree and feel he is not a top pairing D. I just don’t see Toews being the #1 guy on a serious cup contending team. It’s unfortunate that so many people feel that I’m trying to knock Toews but that wasn’t my intention at all. Oh well thanks for the great discussion.

 

[Ambisextrous]

Not a top dman. Top 30 in the league I'd argue though. Makar/Girard/Toews is such an insane skillset on Avs puck movement oriented style. Its just a perfect situation for all

 

[BigEezyE22]

Cool so you’re just going to ignore my response and then take it to the complete extreme. I’ll just respond to the other posters who are contributing to a meaningful discussion, have a good day!

Awww f***...I really feel left out now.

 

[flyfysher]

Thank you for not criticizing me and being open to other viewpoints. I agree with you, the Avs have a great D system which I think benefits a lot from the fact that they have a lot of puck moving D. Do you even have any “shutdown” D on your team anymore, everyone on the backend seems like they can score.

But after reading the many responses from Avs fans I still disagree and feel he is not a top pairing D. I just don’t see Toews being the #1 guy on a serious cup contending team. It’s unfortunate that so many people feel that I’m trying to knock Toews but that wasn’t my intention at all. Oh well thanks for the great discussion.

If you're saying a top D is a 'shutdown' D then I think you mean someone like Hedman or Jones which is fine. I get it. For the vast majority of teams and the way that they're structured I might agree that's a necessity. That's what I was driving at. But there was recently a discussion in the Avs forum about how teams are structured so we're watching the Panthers/Bolts series in terms of seeing how their respective styles match up. If the Bolts and Canes advance then it should be even more revealing. I'd argue the 'shutdown' aspect you're referring to is less on the individual D man and more a matter of a team effort for the Avs.

I recently had a discussion with another Avs fan whom I consider to be very knowledgeable. We were pointing out that what bugged us about Kadri's incident other than injuring Faulk (inexcusable) was that it was undisciplined in terms of playing within Bednar's system. The whole team structure is geared towards intercepting the puck, if possible towards the NZ or OZ and get it going the other way on a quick breakout. It's key to the transition effort. Kadri's effort, while well intended, was completely opposite to what JB's system was trying to accomplish. So in that sense, it's more a team effort with the Avs and less a reliance on a shutdown D. In fact, one of the themes that has been repeated on the Avs boards is how the forwards, including MacKinnon, are quickly getting back to play D. They are much more involved in overall team D and it's key to the quick breakout.

Moreover, the Avs use their D-men unlike some other teams. These guys are going down low and charging around the net. Simply stated, their skating ability allows them that flexibility whereas a lot of other D-men would stay high in the OZ towards the blue line.

Zadorov used to shut down the other team's players. He was on a stretch last season for a handful of games where he was literally shutting down the likes of McDavid. But Zadorov isn't a top pairing guy, at least at this point in his career, even though he was one of my favs. That other Avs fan pointed out that this shutdown ability, shadowing the other team's top guy was a popular take but it literally didn't fit in with JB and that's why he was always in the doghouse. But I'd take Toews over Z any day on the Avs.

Interestingly enough, some Islanders fans noted how Toews had not done well for the Islanders in the POs and they didn't think he had top pairing ability. So I can definitely see where you're coming from. But it's really about how you use the player in your system.

If it's anything, a lot of people on the Avs board will refer to Makar as our top D man, some other Avs fans will say it's Toews and still others will say it's Girard. I really don't care. It's kind of like Avs fans arguing about our second and third lines. Nowadays, I'm not so sure the second line is definitively better than the third line or vice versa anymore. It's definitely the sort of problem that a hockey fan is happy to have.

With that said, I'll take a stab at defining what traditional top D-man is:
Shutdown ability
Big enough to lay some nasty hits and does so with regularity
Skating skill - Makar
Hockey IQ - Heiskanen, Hedman, Doughty, Keith (would be some examples)
Scoring
Excellent D - doesn't have to include hitting, having a very active stick is something Toews does.
Excellent on the PK - definitely Toews
Ability to jump in - definitely Toews
Carries the load minutes wise

 

[shadow1]

Not to pile on, but Toews had a great year.

He played nearly 200 minutes more than the next closest Avalanche player (198 mins more than Sam Girard), and tied for the NHL defenseman lead with a +29 (ironically with MacKenzie Weegar, who Colorado reportedly was looking at last off-season before trading for Toews).

Colorado used 15 defensemen in this shortened 56 game season, which is probably some kind of horrible record. Toews was a rock, especially on the many nights Colorado had (2) of Burroughs/Gilbert/MacDonald/Middleton/Pateryn/Renouf in the line-up.

Regardless of what you want to call him, he's clearly the piece that put the Avalanche over the top. But if he wasn't a top-2 caliber defenseman, I don't think I'd be able to say that.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Yes you are probably right I was thinking more about competition in the West. Sakic loaded up on puck moving D and it paid off fantastically.

That's because Sakic is probably the best GM in the league.

 

[John Mandalorian]

No he isn’t. Despite his fantastic season, Toews is not good enough to be the top D on a playoff team. He is not a legit top pairing D, overvaluing him is just as bad as undervaluing him.

Way off the mark here. I have to believe you’ve only seen him playing for the Islanders. Not surprising. It’s a typical East coast fat headed comment that constantly is imposed on people in the west.

Other than that, good job!

 

[NYR94]

Looks top pair to me.