Confirmed with Link: Coburn Traded to Tampa Bay for Radko Gudas & 2 Picks (1st & 3rd)

bobbyboucher24

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I've been to the Czech Republic and Slovakia; friends in and around Prague and Bratislava and family in eastern Slovakia. Had these awesome little mini type steaks that were delicious. Of course you washed everything down with Becherovka.
 

Gert B Frobe

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Anybody else think it's hilarious how this story broke 8 hours before a single Philly writer knew about it? My brother texted me on Monday morning that Coburn had been traded and I checked Twitter (where I follow most of the Philly hockey writers) and there was nothing. I thought he was messing with me... I think the Flyers themselves announced it before "the Panotch" got wind of it.

We're privileged to have such insiders here in Philly.
 

GKJ

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Anybody else think it's hilarious how this story broke 8 hours before a single Philly writer knew about it? My brother texted me on Monday morning that Coburn had been traded and I checked Twitter (where I follow most of the Philly hockey writers) and there was nothing. I thought he was messing with me... I think the Flyers themselves announced it before "the Panotch" got wind of it.

We're privileged to have such insiders here in Philly.

Well, it was the middle of the night. Pantoch said they were trying to get it done on Sunday. No one could nail down the team though. Hextall stayed up through the night, and they didn't.
 

DrinkFightFlyers

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We were a bad team with him.

So I'm going to love having two 1st's this year as well as an additional 3rd.

Not really a fan of this logic. We were a bad team with Giroux and Voracek and Simmonds and everyone else on the roster. We would be worse if we traded them and we are worse for trading Coburn. The picks we got might in a couple years turn out to be as good, better, or worse than Coburn, but for the time being, the team is objectively worse. I'm fine trading Coburn, but I don't understand the attitude that this trade was some great fleecing by Hextall.
 

duffy9748

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Not really a fan of this logic. We were a bad team with Giroux and Voracek and Simmonds and everyone else on the roster. We would be worse if we traded them and we are worse for trading Coburn. The picks we got might in a couple years turn out to be as good, better, or worse than Coburn, but for the time being, the team is objectively worse. I'm fine trading Coburn, but I don't understand the attitude that this trade was some great fleecing by Hextall.

I don't think it's that hard of a concept to grasp. Coburn is due for a raise after next season and it wouldn't make sense to sign him to a long term deal with the prospects coming up. He acquired a 24 year old defenseman who can likely play a bottom pairing role for the foreseeable future in Gudas. He also brought a 1st rounder which will bring another quality asset into the organization at the draft. Considering Coburn has been on the decline, hasn't played much this year due to injury, and isn't a part of the future plans, it's easy to see why Hextall did very well here.
 

GKJ

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Not really a fan of this logic. We were a bad team with Giroux and Voracek and Simmonds and everyone else on the roster. We would be worse if we traded them and we are worse for trading Coburn. The picks we got might in a couple years turn out to be as good, better, or worse than Coburn, but for the time being, the team is objectively worse. I'm fine trading Coburn, but I don't understand the attitude that this trade was some great fleecing by Hextall.

Better learn to love it then, because that's where Hextall is taking this team.
 

DrinkFightFlyers

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I don't think it's that hard of a concept to grasp. Coburn is due for a raise after next season and it wouldn't make sense to sign him to a long term deal with the prospects coming up. He acquired a 24 year old defenseman who can likely play a bottom pairing role for the foreseeable future in Gudas. He also brought a 1st rounder which will bring another quality asset into the organization at the draft. Considering Coburn has been on the decline, hasn't played much this year due to injury, and isn't a part of the future plans, it's easy to see why Hextall did very well here.

We hope. A late first rounder obviously has a good chance at making the NHL as a regular, but that is about as far as it goes. The argument I am making isn't that Coburn should not have been traded, quite the contrary, I just think Hextall should have gotten more. Coburn is on a very reasonable caphit for a guy that can play 20+ minutes a night and play those minutes well. He gets ripped on here constantly, but like most things, his "poor" play is greatly overstated. Last year he was untradeable to some unless we had a backup plan for a guy to take his minutes or were getting a top liner, now half a season or so later we are fine with picks and a bottom pairing guy with a goon-ish reputation.

If we are rebuilding, fine. Trade him. No problem with that at all. But now who plays those minutes? Who plays them next year? You don't think we were going to re-sign Coburn? The return did not improve this team. It gave us a draft pick that hopefully one day turns into a player that is as good as Coburn. I would have liked to see a better prospect coming our way or a better player than Gudas. TBL has one of the best prospect pools in the league, I would have pressed for more. If Yzerman says no, then I say ok and keep Coburn. Maybe deal him at the draft. Maybe hang on to him. If the plan is to insert a rookie in the lineup next year in Coburn's place, we are likely worse than this year. If we are going to sign someone to fill his shoes, it will likely be at a cost of at least the same hit as Coburn. I just think if we are going this route he should have gotten more.

Better learn to love it then, because that's where Hextall is taking this team.

Yes! Then everyone can be happy that the Flyers have the most draft picks and we can win the draft pick Cup! The dreams of HFBoard posters are finally coming true!
 

flyershockey

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Yes! Then everyone can be happy that the Flyers have the most draft picks and we can win the draft pick Cup! The dreams of HFBoard posters are finally coming true!

It certainly worked out nicely for teams like Chicago and LA. And it appears to be working out nicely for up and comers like Nashville and the Islanders.

I know you're anti-draft, but that's how sustainably great teams are built in the cap era.
 

Van Buren Boy

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Yes! Then everyone can be happy that the Flyers have the most draft picks and we can win the draft pick Cup! The dreams of HFBoard posters are finally coming true!


Sure, so let's continue with the same formula that has brought us nothing for the last 40 years. I love what Hextall is doing. Even if it produces no championships, i am still curious to see what comes of it. It's a breath of fresh air. I actually think this team is good enough to compete next year if Mason stays healthy and they can get MDZ under contract.

Hextall traded the only chip which could bring back a decent return. Streit is the only other dman that could of brought back a good package but why deal a guy who has been a missing piece on this team for years (PMD).
 

Appleyard

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The Flyers already have their eggs in the Sanheim, Morin and Gostisbehere basket.

Everything in the next ~5 years will depend on how they pan out.

If one becomes a legit #1 and another a top 4 guy the Flyers will have a serious cup window from the age the #1 is ~23 years old (when generally guys become #1s) until Giroux is ~34. (when #1 centres fall off.)

That will mean ~2017-18 to ~2022-23 is the wider window. That is 6 years where if things go well the Flyers should contend.

I think the Flyers know that... in his interview Hextall basically said that good teams need 'older' guys to win, but that those players go from being ~70% of the team success to more like ~50% of the team success as younger players develop. (the %'s I garnered looking at his hand gestures!) He was quite clearly talking about Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds.
 

DrinkFightFlyers

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It certainly worked out nicely for teams like Chicago and LA. And it appears to be working out nicely for up and comers like Nashville and the Islanders.

I know you're anti-draft, but that's how sustainably great teams are built in the cap era.

I'm not "anti-draft." And I am not even anti-trade Coburn. I just think people are overjoyed about getting a first and a third as some great coup that shows this team is moving in the right direction. Draft picks are so overvalued around here it is nuts. It worked out nicely for Chicago and LA by getting superstars high in the draft and supplementing that by hitting some homeruns late in drafts (in years when they missed the playoffs I might add). You want to suck for 10 years then win a Cup? Fine. That's great. But don't pretend like these teams have been contenders for years based solely on having draft picks. That just isn't true.

As for Nashville and the Islanders, the Predators, how many of their key players were acquired via the draft? Weber (2nd round home run), Rinne (eighth round home run), Jones (top four pick), Josi (2nd round pick), Wilson, and I'll give you Ellis too if you want to count him as a key player. Their top seven forward scorers were a acquired via trade or UFA with the exception of Wilson. I'm not sure I would point to them as a model of building through the draft. They certainly have not done a bad job, but again, let's not pretend like their success is based solely on their drafting. They got extremely lucky with Rinne, and very lucky with Weber and Josi in the second round, both in years when they missed the playoffs.

The Islanders are an example you are using too? The team that missed the playoffs for the last hundred years? They've built well through the draft recently, but it sure helps to get a guy like Tavares at the top of the draft with numerous other top picks.

I'm not saying don't build through the draft. I'm not saying don't trade for draft picks or trade away all our draft picks. I'm just not seeing some great move here by Hextall to trade one of our best defenseman for a guy three or four years from now that we hope will be as good as Coburn (or comparable value to Coburn as a forward). No problem trading Coburn. I don't even really have a problem with the return we got, I just think we could have gotten more and I would have passed on this deal. I'm not saying fire Hextall for the deal, I just don't think it was a good deal and I'm not a fan of the trade.

Sure, so let's continue with the same formula that has brought us nothing for the last 40 years. I love what Hextall is doing. Even if it produces no championships, i am still curious to see what comes of it. It's a breath of fresh air. I actually think this team is good enough to compete next year if Mason stays healthy and they can get MDZ under contract.

Hextall traded the only chip which could bring back a decent return. Streit is the only other dman that could of brought back a good package but why deal a guy who has been a missing piece on this team for years (PMD).

Once again, not what I am saying. I'm totally fine trading Coburn and have been in favor of this since the offseason. I was more in favor of trading to acquire a guy like Eberle. I don't know if that was actually on the table but that was the type of return for which I was looking. Draft picks sound great and if this was a very high pick maybe I'm singing a different tune, but people seem to always be so excited our draft picks and our prospects and what could be and blah blah blah. I'm in no way saying that these picks are worthless or anything like that, I just think they are worth less than folks around here care to believe.

And I would have rather traded Streit as I think he probably could have gotten the same or better than what Coburn got (even better than what I think Coburn could have gotten regardless of this deal).
 

CanadianFlyer88

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Ah, the board contrarian. Never sides with the majority.

The Flyers got a chance to watch what the current roster looks like without Coburn due to his injuries. Given that the overall play of the team didn't differ that much, it made him easier to trade.

DFF, I don't know what you thought a good return for Coburn would be, but this is about as good as you were going to see. Maybe you wanted a prospect instead of Gudas, but Gudas has actually proven he can play at the NHL level. A prospect is as much of a gamble as a 1st round pick and you don't seem to like to be so high on the 1st rounder.

This was a good trade and is one in a series of moves that will be made to pave the way for the young guys to earn their way into the defensive line up. At least one of Schenn, Grossmann, or Gudas will be on their way out in the summer. Hopefully more than one, really.

Streit, Schultz and MacDonald are coming back for sure. MDZ will most likely be re-signed. For the young guys to get a chance to be part of the big club, there needs to be an open roster spot. Coburn got a better return that anyone else the Flyers could move and, while it won't be easy to fill his minutes, the team has shown that they can distribute his minutes across the board and not lose too much.

Edit: I see that you wanted Eberle for Coburn. While making no sense from a roster stand point (the Flyers have two RWs more useful than Eberle already), who's to say someone at Eberle's level was ever in play for Coburn? Sounds like your expectations were way too high for Coburn.
 

duffy9748

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We hope. A late first rounder obviously has a good chance at making the NHL as a regular, but that is about as far as it goes. The argument I am making isn't that Coburn should not have been traded, quite the contrary, I just think Hextall should have gotten more. Coburn is on a very reasonable caphit for a guy that can play 20+ minutes a night and play those minutes well. He gets ripped on here constantly, but like most things, his "poor" play is greatly overstated. Last year he was untradeable to some unless we had a backup plan for a guy to take his minutes or were getting a top liner, now half a season or so later we are fine with picks and a bottom pairing guy with a goon-ish reputation.

If we are rebuilding, fine. Trade him. No problem with that at all. But now who plays those minutes? Who plays them next year? You don't think we were going to re-sign Coburn? The return did not improve this team. It gave us a draft pick that hopefully one day turns into a player that is as good as Coburn. I would have liked to see a better prospect coming our way or a better player than Gudas. TBL has one of the best prospect pools in the league, I would have pressed for more. If Yzerman says no, then I say ok and keep Coburn. Maybe deal him at the draft. Maybe hang on to him. If the plan is to insert a rookie in the lineup next year in Coburn's place, we are likely worse than this year. If we are going to sign someone to fill his shoes, it will likely be at a cost of at least the same hit as Coburn. I just think if we are going this route he should have gotten more.




Yes! Then everyone can be happy that the Flyers have the most draft picks and we can win the draft pick Cup! The dreams of HFBoard posters are finally coming true!

Coburn's value isn't going up from here on out. This was the perfect time to deal him considering what other top-4 defensemen around the league were going for. Coburn will be likely be looking for one last big pay day. Do you think it would make sense to give him 5.5-6 mil for 5+ years when we already have MacDonald on a long term deal and a number of defensive prospects getting ready to join the team in the next 2-3 years? That money is better spent on Voracek, Couturier, and Brayden Schenn. In 3-4 years there will be several other players looking for raises as well.

To your other point on whether this makes us a better team next year, no it doesn't. This team's focus shouldn't be on next year though, it should be 3-4 years from now. The way I see it, the team has Streit, McDonald, Schenn, Schultz, Del Zotto, and Gudas moving forward on the back end. I would hope that Hextall only plans on having 2-3 of them on the team in 2017 when the young prospects are hopefully ready to take on a bigger role. While the above isn't an attractive group of defenseman above, try and picture the following 3 years from now:

Morin(22)-Ghost(23)
Sanheim(21)-Del Zotto(27)
Gudas(27)-Hagg(22)
Schenn(27)

Yes, I understand the likelihood of all those defenseman filling their potential is slim to none, but if even two of them can turn into solid top 4 defenseman it is a much better situation than they had three days ago.

The extra 1st round pick is a gamble, but I think you have to trust what the team has done in the 1st round over the years. As the team stands right now, it is best to acquire as many assets as possible. Three years from now this is what they will have up front if no deals are made and the right forwards are re-signed:

Raffl(29)-Giroux(30)-Voracek(29)
Schenn(26)-Couturier(25)-Simmonds(29)
Leier(24)-Laughton(24)-Read(31)
Aube Kubel(21)-Cousins(24)-Bellemare(32)

That is a very capable group of forwards and that is filled with guys that can play a 2-way game.

The goaltending situation looks promising with Mason(29) and Stolarz(24).

That is a potential team without even including a top 10 pick and late 1st rounder this year who could both very well be players on that team. I don't foresee Hextall moving any high picks for the next several years either and they will likely have another top 15 pick next season.

If some of those defenseman don't pan out, which is very likely, you have plenty of assets to trade for one without crippling the system. Keep in mind all of the cap room that will be available after losing Lecavalier, Streit, Umberger, and Grossmann in a few years. The only players that are due for big raises are Voracek and possibly Mason. The defense core above won't be expensive at all and they will be in a position to be players in free agency.

I am aware this is an optimistic approach but it really is the only way you can succeed in the cap era. Build through drafting and developing players and make your move in trades/free agency when you have enough assets within the organization where you can afford to. Hextall is following the same blue print that led LA to two Stanley Cups. This method gives the organization a larger window to succeed.
 

deadhead

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Coburn without Timonen isn't a top defensemen, he's basically mediocre
He had five solid seasons, but the last three have been meh, and this year he's maybe the 4th best defenseman on the team (after Streit, Schultz and MDZ) when he was healthy. The team was no worse without him than with him. He's been injured two of the last three seasons.

Given they're not going to be a playoff team next year without some lucky breaks (a couple young players emerging), his value to the Flyers was limited, and they'd be nuts to extend him at age 32 in 2016-17.

So Hextall got a nice return for a 100 games of a 2nd pair defenseman who struggles to stay healthy.
 

GKJ

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Tell us, DFF. What was an acceptable return for Coburn?
 

duffy9748

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If Coburn was good enough to return a higher package than what he received, then it wouldn't make any sense to deal him because he would be filling a huge void within the organization.
 

Tripod

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Seems pretty simple to me:

Cuburn's value was not going to be higher in the summer or at next years deadline, than it is now. So trading him now maxes value.

We don't want to re-sign him to the next deal he can get on the market

We are RARELY in a sellers posotion...take advantage of a bad situatuion.

We are in a hold pattern until we dump Vinny and Umberger and decide on Grossmann and Schenn. ALL 4 of those can be cleaned up by summer 2016.

No matter what...we have Streit and MacD here. Then add in re-signing Shultz and MDZ....so 4 vets + Gross and Schenn....who could/should be moved by next years deadline.

And hey, if they really want to, they could try and sign Coburn as a UFA if the term and $ makes sense....not that I would expect that.

But reality is 1st+Gudas+3rd+UFA to replace Coburn>>>Coburn IF they decide the need to replace him this summer. Reality is, I would not expect that and Hextall will ride with what we have.

Trading Hartnell for Umberger was a sign of short term pain for long term gain. Coburn being traded is another sign of that.
 

DrinkFightFlyers

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Ah, the board contrarian. Never sides with the majority.

The Flyers got a chance to watch what the current roster looks like without Coburn due to his injuries. Given that the overall play of the team didn't differ that much, it made him easier to trade.

DFF, I don't know what you thought a good return for Coburn would be, but this is about as good as you were going to see. Maybe you wanted a prospect instead of Gudas, but Gudas has actually proven he can play at the NHL level. A prospect is as much of a gamble as a 1st round pick and you don't seem to like to be so high on the 1st rounder.

This was a good trade and is one in a series of moves that will be made to pave the way for the young guys to earn their way into the defensive line up. At least one of Schenn, Grossmann, or Gudas will be on their way out in the summer. Hopefully more than one, really.

Streit, Schultz and MacDonald are coming back for sure. MDZ will most likely be re-signed. For the young guys to get a chance to be part of the big club, there needs to be an open roster spot. Coburn got a better return that anyone else the Flyers could move and, while it won't be easy to fill his minutes, the team has shown that they can distribute his minutes across the board and not lose too much.

Edit: I see that you wanted Eberle for Coburn. While making no sense from a roster stand point (the Flyers have two RWs more useful than Eberle already), who's to say someone at Eberle's level was ever in play for Coburn? Sounds like your expectations were way too high for Coburn.

I'm a contrarian because I don't immediately get on board with every single more or hate every single move with a passion? Got it. I call them as I see them. It should really be noted that I'm not all that jacked up about this trade and have been fully in favor of trading Coburn from the beginning (even when people were against it...I know, contrarian right?). All I said is I'm not a fan and was immediately questioned about it. I'm not going to change my mind because everyone else loves it. I loved the Timonen trade. I love the PEB signing. I love plenty of the moves that the majority loves, and have been against plenty of the moves that the majority doesn't love. But when I see something I don't like, I'm not just gonna be like, "well I better shut up because everyone else loves it."

As far as what I wanted instead, I've made it pretty clear. A better NHLer that Gudas, or an additional prospect close to NHL-ready (i.e., not a real big gamble) or an additional pick of some sort. I don't think that is some crazy addition to this trade, which is also why all I really said was that I'm not a fan and that I would have asked for more. Not screaming from the mountain tops that this trade is going ruin the team. Not condemning Hextall and asking for his head. Not speaking in hyperbole about the ramifications of this trade. All I'm saying is they took a player that is useful now and will be useful in the future and turned him into a slight chance of getting a player of similar value. But of course, that makes me a contrarian because I am not in lock step with the rest of the board.

As for Eberle, again I don't know if it was in play or not, and I'm not saying that is the only deal they should have made, that was just an example that was previously discussed. In terms of roster logjam, if you can get a player like Eberle, you figure it out. He is a legit top line player, if he was in play for Coburn and you would prefer draft picks and a bottom pair defenseman, then I guess I am crazy.
 

YEM

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All I'm saying is they took a player that is useful now and will be useful in the future and turned him into a slight chance of getting a player of similar value.
well, you're wrong about this

could be that hexy & co realized that they would not be able to resign coburn [at what his likely market value would be] and hence he would not be "useful in the future" and therefore they moved him a) while he still had more value than just a short rental & b) didn't let him walk for nothing

the fact of the matter is that some space has to be made on the blueline for the younglings and homer's moves combined with the general suckiness of the rest of the D [that prevented them from being moved] hasn't given hexy too much flexibility
 

GKJ

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It's strange someone who thinks that Paul Holmgren was always the smartest guy in the room despite never having any kind of plan, doesn't trust Ron Hextall when he does.
 

BackToTheBrierePatch

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it really didn't break with many news outlets because all the parties involved were not contacted. It wasn't made "official" until Coburn and Gudas were told officially. Coburn said he wasn't told officially until 6:30 am Monday. He was asleep with his phone off. His wife woke him up and told him to check his phone.
 

DrinkFightFlyers

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It's strange someone who thinks that Paul Holmgren was always the smartest guy in the room despite never having any kind of plan, doesn't trust Ron Hextall when he does.

Holy **** I'm not saying I don't trust Ron Hextall, nor have I ever said Paul Holmgren was always the smartest guy in the room. I guess I forgot that on HFBoards if you have to be 100% agreement with something or 100% hating something more than life itself and there is no middle ground. I am so, so sorry to have offended anyone. This is a great trade and this team is so much better off now than they were yesterday. Those draft picks are valuable assets that will improve this team and the defense is fine moving forward because we have so many current capable defensemen and our young guys surely make an impact next season and we have so many draft picks. Case closed.

Or maybe I will go the opposite. This is the worst trade ever and will ruin this team's chances for the next couple years. We have nothing in the system to replace Coburn right now and we will now have to overpay in the offseason or simply have a ****tier defense than we had yesterday moving forward. I hate Ron Hextall and every single thing he does.

You guys pick which position I take because apparently it doesn't matter what I say because it means I hate Hextall or something anyway.
 

Embiid

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While I'm not thrilled with the trade yet since the only tangible thing we got back is Gudas who is Grossmann and L Schenn 2.0..... there is logic in the trade. What Hextall did with Coburn and Kimmo is at least decent asset management with the latter actually being great asset management.

Again this is what Holmgren should have done with Carle...if you don't want to sign a known and good commodity to an extension and don't view them in your long term plans...at least get something in return! Jeebus!
 

CanadianFlyer88

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I'm a contrarian because I don't immediately get on board with every single more or hate every single move with a passion? Got it. I call them as I see them.

No, you're a contrarian because your immediate reaction often differs from the majority. Whether that's actually your opinion or whether you want to initiate a discussion... well...

As far as what I wanted instead, I've made it pretty clear. A better NHLer that Gudas, or an additional prospect close to NHL-ready (i.e., not a real big gamble) or an additional pick of some sort. I don't think that is some crazy addition to this trade, which is also why all I really said was that I'm not a fan and that I would have asked for more. Not screaming from the mountain tops that this trade is going ruin the team. Not condemning Hextall and asking for his head. Not speaking in hyperbole about the ramifications of this trade. All I'm saying is they took a player that is useful now and will be useful in the future and turned him into a slight chance of getting a player of similar value. But of course, that makes me a contrarian because I am not in lock step with the rest of the board.

What you've completely glossed over is the cost of the players involved. Coburn will be UFA after next year and will be in line for a suitable raise from his current salary and AAV. Gudas is on a cap friendly deal through next year and the picks won't factor into the cap for a couple of seasons. It was an asset management move both to clear a body on the ladder above the defensive prospects the Flyers have while clearing out salary. Maybe a prospect instead of Gudas would have been nice, but the value was more than fair for the Flyers.

As for Eberle, again I don't know if it was in play or not, and I'm not saying that is the only deal they should have made, that was just an example that was previously discussed. In terms of roster logjam, if you can get a player like Eberle, you figure it out. He is a legit top line player, if he was in play for Coburn and you would prefer draft picks and a bottom pair defenseman, then I guess I am crazy.

Again, you're ignoring how much a player like Eberle earns. Part of the reason for moving Coburn is to jettison some salary. Eberle makes more than Coburn and and I'd rather have Jake and Simmer over Eberle in all situations. You also don't trade into a position of strength; left wing is the Flyers' position of weakness and that's the only other place a 1-for-1 swap makes sense for Coburn. Coburn for Glencross (+ something else)? Would that have worked for you?... because he's probably the best LW that was moved at the deadline...

Pickings were slim and Hextall did a good job for this team moving forward.

To me you come off as reactionary on the small scale move because you always seem to look at the trade/signing on its own and ignore the big picture.
 

GKJ

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187,477
39,479
Trading Eberle for Coburn makes no sense for the Oilers. They're in a worse position than we are, and would just be trying to sell Coburn again next year. As we saw with the Petry trade, they're not very good at doing that either.
 

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