Coach Discussion: Coaching Thread

[TheGovernment]

I think if you listened to him talk about it you'd disagree... Analytics are great but in a non 1 on 1 situation... Aren't the be all and end all... Works better in sports like baseball.. more 1 on 1 really...pitcher vs batter.
If you are putting your likes together based on analytics.... Just lol really. They play a role... So do human factors tho such as just overall skill and the chemistry factor.

• Not a huge Maurice coaching fan but who the f*** u kidding.. he knows more than you.

I have listens to his babbling. He charismatic and it hides his inability to coach to people like you.

you listen to him and go “he sounds so smart” when normal people listen to him and go “he’s not answering the question, he’s dancing around it”

You can love him all you want, I don’t give 2 craps if he knows more than me.... Me and PoMo have one thing in common, neither of us has won a Stanley cup as a coach in the NHL..... drops mic....

 

[Al Camino]

I think if you listened to him talk about it you'd disagree... Analytics are great but in a non 1 on 1 situation... Aren't the be all and end all... Works better in sports like baseball.. more 1 on 1 really...pitcher vs batter.
If you are putting your likes together based on analytics.... Just lol really. They play a role... So do human factors tho such as just overall skill and the chemistry factor.

• Not a huge Maurice coaching fan but who the f*** u kidding.. he knows more than you.

That’s not really how analytics in baseball work.

 

[Upperdeckjet]

Brilliant decision to put Dubois on the wing with Blake and Mark in this particular situation!

 

[Hunter368]

Brilliant decision to put Dubois on the wing with Blake and Mark in this particular situation!

Agreed well done PMO......now stop playing Thompson.

 

[surixon]

Agreed well done PMO......now stop playing Thompson.

Yup the fourth line had no speed on it and couldn't get anything going.

The kids with Lewis looked way better. I'd like to get back to Ves Harkins and lewis

 

[Upperdeckjet]

I wonder how much pressure is on Paul to play a vet like Thompson. Chevy brings these guys in and one would think that he tells them there is a role for them on the team.

Whether perceived or real, it would not be hard to imagine other influences are at play that allow an inferior player to take the ice.

 

[GumbyCan2]

If you want the easy version:

Numbers matter because they measure the actual objectives of the game.

Eye test and other context matters.

Nuance is king.

Right on. Thanx for "apprenticing it all" for me and a few others.

 

[surixon]

I wonder how much pressure is on Paul to play a vet like Thompson. Chevy brings these guys in and one would think that he tells them there is a role for them on the team.

Whether perceived or real, it would not be hard to imagine other influences are at play that allow an inferior player to take the ice.

I have to think Chevy brings these vets in because Moe wants these vets on the team. I would think it would be the opposite that there would be more pressure to play the young home grown prospect by management.

 

[Upperdeckjet]

I have to think Chevy brings these vets in because Moe wants these vets on the team. I would think it would be the opposite that there would be more pressure to play the young home grown prospect by management.

Maybe. I would have more of a lean to that line of thought a few years a go when our team was quite young. Whatever Paul is, he is certainly not blind to the talent level available to him.

Time will tell. Harkins and Ves need to play.

 

[voyageur]

I liked quite a bit of your post, but I hate this argument.

- "Harkins is a - player on the year" is meaningless with the number of minutes he has and the linemates he plays with. If - was so important, Wheeler should be stapled to the bench/pressbox, but that would be an equally ridiculous argument to make.

- "Harkins has no impact on special teams." That is due to a choice and some false narrative that Thompson is better. When Thompson has been on the ice on PK, the PK has been terrible. Maurice quotes his faceoffs, but he has the worst faceoff % on the team of the centers. Harkins has the best (granted a much lower sample size against weaker competition). Thompson is so good at PK he never was on the PK last game. You can't tell me that Harkins would not be a good 3rd PK pair option. His game is nothing but speed and grind, but doesn't get a chance on it. Unless Harkins has said he doesn't want to PK (which would be a ridiculous assumption) I can't see why he hasn't been given a chance at it in TC.

- "Ves has the same Corsi as Thompson, and Thompson has been given more defensive responsibility." Corsi doesn't care which player on the line has the defensive responsibility.

- "His future impact will be on the PP" Why isn't that his current impact? Why is Lowry, Copp and Perreault on PP2 and not Ves when Ves is in the lineup?


In my opinion any argument that Harkins/Ves must come out because they don't do special teams (especially Harkins) should be immediately countered with "they should be on special teams, but the coach won't let them, because Thompson is a veteran and thus there is a fantasy belief that he must be better at PK"

This is a pretty easy one to answer.

Harkins has not had much of an impact at all to start the year, and getting scored on a 4th line shift is a way to the pressbox. Ask Nic Petan about that. It's a results based league. Thompson still is holding his own 5 on 5, at least not giving up goals.

Harkins is not a better PKer than Thompson. In fact to make that claim is a giant stretch since at no point has he killed penalties on the Jets, so it's not even an argument just a biased hope. That small sample size that holds true for every young player's failure to produce should also apply to vets, if they have early struggles. Thompson was good on the draw tonight. He had a decent PK shift. He didn't get scored on again, which is important for every minute you play on a 4th line. And if you watched the games you would have seen the same thing as me, that Harkins and Ves on a 4th line had some pretty scrambly shifts in their own end. Not real momentum builders. And if you can't see the difference between an even Corsi, with two players playing on opposite ends of the rink, having a determination, I'm not sure what else to add. Do I think Harkins could be a good PKer? Maybe, one thing you have to watch out for is being fast, but not being in position because you are so fast. It's easy for a player to skate themselves out of position on the PK, keeping the box and the seams tight, isn't just about speed. But awareness.

The simple fact that Copp and Perreault have more points should tell you why they are on the PP. None of them have played their way off it. And Lowry has produced on the PP too. This reeks of rookie entitlement. The kid has 1 point this year, let's not get carried away in his impact. There is still some developing to do before he becomes an everyday player. Getting a taste of the action is a good thing, not a bad thing. But the love of non producing young players is somewhat of a hyperbolic diatribe in these parts, with consistency.

Maybe Maurice is a good coach, but the biases towards him aren't so good.

 

[surixon]

This is a pretty easy one to answer.

Harkins has not had much of an impact at all to start the year, and getting scored on a 4th line shift is a way to the pressbox. Ask Nic Petan about that. It's a results based league. Thompson still is holding his own 5 on 5, at least not giving up goals.

Harkins is not a better PKer than Thompson. In fact to make that claim is a giant stretch since at no point has he killed penalties on the Jets, so it's not even an argument just a biased hope. That small sample size that holds true for every young player's failure to produce should also apply to vets, if they have early struggles. Thompson was good on the draw tonight. He had a decent PK shift. He didn't get scored on again, which is important for every minute you play on a 4th line. And if you watched the games you would have seen the same thing as me, that Harkins and Ves on a 4th line had some pretty scrambly shifts in their own end. Not real momentum builders. And if you can't see the difference between an even Corsi, with two players playing on opposite ends of the rink, having a determination, I'm not sure what else to add. Do I think Harkins could be a good PKer? Maybe, one thing you have to watch out for is being fast, but not being in position because you are so fast. It's easy for a player to skate themselves out of position on the PK, keeping the box and the seams tight, isn't just about speed. But awareness.

The simple fact that Copp and Perreault have more points should tell you why they are on the PP. None of them have played their way off it. And Lowry has produced on the PP too. This reeks of rookie entitlement. The kid has 1 point this year, let's not get carried away in his impact. There is still some developing to do before he becomes an everyday player. Getting a taste of the action is a good thing, not a bad thing. But the love of non producing young players is somewhat of a hyperbolic diatribe in these parts, with consistency.

Maybe Maurice is a good coach, but the biases towards him aren't so good.

None producing vets get a free pass though right?

Where you happy with the fourth line tonight? They were painfully slow and couldn't win races or even get set up in the other zone to cycle. You need multiple elements on a line and all 3 of those players can't skate well enough to be on a line together. They got crushed tonight.

It's only luck that Thompson hasn't been on for goals against. It has nothing to do with his play.

 

[Adam da bomb]

This is a pretty easy one to answer.

Harkins has not had much of an impact at all to start the year, and getting scored on a 4th line shift is a way to the pressbox. Ask Nic Petan about that. It's a results based league. Thompson still is holding his own 5 on 5, at least not giving up goals.

Harkins is not a better PKer than Thompson. In fact to make that claim is a giant stretch since at no point has he killed penalties on the Jets, so it's not even an argument just a biased hope. That small sample size that holds true for every young player's failure to produce should also apply to vets, if they have early struggles. Thompson was good on the draw tonight. He had a decent PK shift. He didn't get scored on again, which is important for every minute you play on a 4th line. And if you watched the games you would have seen the same thing as me, that Harkins and Ves on a 4th line had some pretty scrambly shifts in their own end. Not real momentum builders. And if you can't see the difference between an even Corsi, with two players playing on opposite ends of the rink, having a determination, I'm not sure what else to add. Do I think Harkins could be a good PKer? Maybe, one thing you have to watch out for is being fast, but not being in position because you are so fast. It's easy for a player to skate themselves out of position on the PK, keeping the box and the seams tight, isn't just about speed. But awareness.

The simple fact that Copp and Perreault have more points should tell you why they are on the PP. None of them have played their way off it. And Lowry has produced on the PP too. This reeks of rookie entitlement. The kid has 1 point this year, let's not get carried away in his impact. There is still some developing to do before he becomes an everyday player. Getting a taste of the action is a good thing, not a bad thing. But the love of non producing young players is somewhat of a hyperbolic diatribe in these parts, with consistency.

Maybe Maurice is a good coach, but the biases towards him aren't so good.

This favouring of vets can also be seen in how copp is still a top 6 player and on the pp when Apple has as many goals playing fewer minutes and not playing with a superstar.
Edit: Apple has 5 copp has 4.
Copp has a fewer more assists playing in top 6 and power play.

 

[voyageur]

This favouring of vets can also be seen in how copp is still a top 6 player and on the pp when Apple has as many goals playing fewer minutes and not playing with a superstar.
Edit: Apple has 5 copp has 4.

Really that's your argument? How many points does Copp have? And which line was he on tonight? Appleton has been good and he's earned that PK2 spot, over Thompson because of it.

 

[voyageur]

None producing vets get a free pass though right?

Where you happy with the fourth line tonight? They were painfully slow and couldn't win races or even get set up in the other zone to cycle. You need multiple elements on a line and all 3 of those players can't skate well enough to be on a line together. They got crushed tonight.

It's only luck that Thompson hasn't been on for goals against. It has nothing to do with his play.

Actually I thought the 4th line was pretty poor tonight, but they did their job of getting the puck over the blueline, and not giving up a goal or a penalty. Against Vancouver I don't think Thompson played terrible at all, and he did take important PK reps during the game.

Ask me if I'd like to see Harkins out against Montreal? Yes I would. Did we win two games on the road with Thompson in the lineup? Yes we did.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Really that's your argument? How many points does Copp have? And which line was he on tonight? Appleton has been good and he's earned that PK2 spot, over Thompson because of it.

Copp has 12 pgs to Appleton’s 10 getting to play in top 6. Copp was bumped down but for the start of the season first 16 games Copp has vetted his way into the top 6.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Actually I thought the 4th line was pretty poor tonight, but they did their job of getting the puck over the blueline, and not giving up a goal or a penalty. Against Vancouver I don't think Thompson played terrible at all, and he did take important PK reps during the game.

Ask me if I'd like to see Harkins out against Montreal? Yes I would. Did we win two games on the road with Thompson in the lineup? Yes we did.

The 4th line was hemmed in their end. Only reasons Vancouver didn’t score is helly. So Thompson gets credit for us having a great goalie? How many pk reps did Thompson play tonight? Last game?

 

[voyageur]

Copp has 12 pgs to Appleton’s 10 getting to play in top 6. Copp was bumped down but for the start of the season first 16 games Copp has vetted his way into the top 6.

Which is fine. We won games because of Copp-Stastny-Ehlers, and we won games because of Perreault-Lowry-Appleton. Not sure that top 6 and top 9 is that different on the Jets. Playing with Lowry, who is maybe the biggest play driver isn't exactly a demotion. Copp may get more playing time, because the Jets want to keep him here long term, and he's a pretty important player. If we lose him it will reverberate.

 

[voyageur]

The 4th line was hemmed in their end. Only reasons Vancouver didn’t score is helly. So Thompson gets credit for us having a great goalie? How many pk reps did Thompson play tonight? Last game?

He had one shift on the PK tonight. To cover for Lowry. He played 4:54 and was 50% on the draw. Not really a factor, and was replaced on some shifts by Lowry/Scheifele. Not really an impact at all. Didn't cost us the game, so I'm not sure what the angle is. The first game our 4th line was good and won the possession battle. Even when we win, it's swords out for the vets.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Which is fine. We won games because of Copp-Stastny-Ehlers, and we won games because of Perreault-Lowry-Appleton. Not sure that top 6 and top 9 is that different on the Jets. Playing with Lowry, who is maybe the biggest play driver isn't exactly a demotion. Copp may get more playing time, because the Jets want to keep him here long term, and he's a pretty important player. If we lose him it will reverberate.

But is he really that important when you can really replace his points and defensive play with Apple? If you are looking at getting paid next contract you have a much better chance with ehlers or schief than Lowry. You aren’t going to put up nearly as many assists with Lowry. Especially since we may lose one of them in the ed. Also Copp has complained and might not seem himself here long term.
Instead of appeasing I’d rather take the tack cool we’d love you to be here but if you get greedy or make demands we got this other guy just as good ready to go.

 

[Adam da bomb]

He had one shift on the PK tonight. To cover for Lowry. He played 4:54 and was 50% on the draw. Not really a factor, and was replaced on some shifts by Lowry/Scheifele. Not really an impact at all. Didn't cost us the game, so I'm not sure what the angle is. The first game our 4th line was good and won the possession battle. Even when we win, it's swords out for the vets.

So I’m saying if it doesn’t matter and one pk shift doesn’t isn’t it better to play youth who can develop than vets who are what they are. Harkins can still get better, Thompson not so much.
It’s like Thompson is a 2 Harkins is a 2 but could also be a 3 or a 4.

 

[voyageur]

But is he really that important when you can really replace his points and defensive play with Apple? If you are looking at getting paid next contract you have a much better chance with ehlers or schief than Lowry. You aren’t going to put up nearly as many assists with Lowry.

I don't know bud, I'm pretty happy we won tonight so I'm not much in an arguing mood. I like Appleton, I like Copp. Their line didn't have a great game tonight, so let's hope they play better next game. If I had a say I'd put Lowry on the PP over Copp or Vesalainen, because I think getting in the goalie's kitchen is a good thing. That said I'd demote Stastny to the 2nd PP, to promote Dubois, and try to rekindle some of the chemistry that Copp-Stastny-Ehlers line had early in the year that put up some points. I'm also excited about Vesalainen but I think he should be pushed to be better, and maybe when his number gets called next time, he'll have a bigger impact, because he's developed some familiarity with his linemates. If Harkins came back in for Thompson, maybe he'll have more to prove too, because I'm sure he'll be hungry to stay in the lineup.

 

[Gnova]

This favouring of vets can also be seen in how copp is still a top 6 player and on the pp when Apple has as many goals playing fewer minutes and not playing with a superstar.
Edit: Apple has 5 copp has 4.
Copp has a fewer more assists playing in top 6 and power play.

Really you are using Copp as example of a grizzled vet getting minutes over a bushy tailed Appleton?
2 whole years separate them.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

The fact is Paul basically doesn't give a f about his 4th line for even strength. He wants to have top 6 offense, third line shutdown, 4th line muck who can contribute on special teams. Our 4th line is going to struggle to develop players because they are given no opportunity.

 

[WolfHouse]

He had one shift on the PK tonight. To cover for Lowry. He played 4:54 and was 50% on the draw. Not really a factor, and was replaced on some shifts by Lowry/Scheifele. Not really an impact at all. Didn't cost us the game, so I'm not sure what the angle is. The first game our 4th line was good and won the possession battle. Even when we win, it's swords out for the vets.

I haven't seen swords out for Trevor Lewis or Matty Perrault this year... but they actually earned their TOI - Thompson is getting credit from Mo for a PK that he's never actually been a part of

 

[voyageur]

I haven't seen swords out for Trevor Lewis or Matty Perrault this year... but they actually earned their TOI - Thompson is getting credit from Mo for a PK that he's never actually been a part of

Fair enough. Thompson was brought in because the game before he was Lowry drew 2 penalties. A game in which Harkins and Vesalainen barely played because they didn't factor into the special teams. Now Thompson isn't in the 4 man rotation, which is workable when no one is in the box, or there aren't a lot of penalties, but judging by the one shift Thompson did get on the PK, I'd say he's probably the first replacement ahead of Connor, and that may have something to do with Dave Lowry's reasoning too, as he seems to prefer shot blockers up front on the PK, as opposed to flyers.

I'm really not upset that Thompson got to play ahead of Harkins this weekend. You have a guy who you want to get into playing shape, you have another who isn't performing at the standard you'd like. So it's an easy switch. If Thompson goes on to play 10 games in a row of substandard hockey, and his impact is clearly negative, then I would have the swords out. I'd also expect that Harkins comes back better, and starts producing when he gets the call. Like I said before I thought Vancouver was the right team to play Thompson against.