Coach Discussion: Coaching Thread 3

[surixon]

Do you think the rosters have been comparable over the past 6-7 years?

16/17 - 18/19 I would say we were in the same league talent wise. Prior to that and subsequent to that no.

 

[surixon]

They started very slow, but by December were looking more and more like the 2017/18 team, and then Buff and Ehlers and Morrissey went down, so I find it hard to assess how the season might have gone. I don't think Maurice changed the system, so much as the players performed poorly. I think the 2017/18 success might have gone to their heads early. Maurice can take some blame for that.

I get injuries play a role but numerous teams seem to be able to overcome them. Heck our team overcame a rash of injuries in 2014-15.

Tampa shit kicked Boston the other night without Stamkos for instance. 2018-19 was a disappointing year in which we failed to meet expectations.

It's professional sports where injuries and other stuff happen often. Enough with the excuses, the org has been around for almost a decade and has had pockets of moderate success that they can't seem to sustain more then a year at a time.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

If we moved Winnipeg to Tampa and Tampa to Winnipeg we wouldn't be having this dicussion right now we would be waiting for game 3 against Dallas with us up 2 to 0.

 

[Whileee]

I get injuries play a role but numerous teams seem to be able to overcome them. Heck our team overcame a rash of injuries in 2014-15.

Tampa shit kicked Boston the other night without Stamkos for instance. 2018-19 was a disappointing year in which we failed to meet expectations.

It's professional sports where injuries and other stuff happen often. Enough with the excuses, the org has been around for almost a decade and has had pockets of moderate success that they can't seem to sustain more then a year at a time.

Once again, injuries aren't "excuses" any more than saying having a worse roster than the other team is an "excuse". Game performance is highly dependent on which players play.

Here's a quick summary of the shot metrics (5v5 adjusted xGF%) for the Jets for 2017/18 and 2018/19. They performed better in 2017/18, but the clear divergence in performance is in the 2nd have of the season, after Buff and Ehlers were injured simultaneously.

 

[surixon]

Once again, injuries aren't "excuses" any more than saying having a worse roster than the other team is an "excuse". Game performance is highly dependent on which players play.

Here's a quick summary of the shot metrics (5v5 adjusted xGF%) for the Jets for 2017/18 and 2018/19. They performed better in 2017/18, but the clear divergence in performance is in the 2nd have of the season, after Buff and Ehlers were injured simultaneously.

View attachment 364581

I've seen that chart many times. It's still a let down year for me. Hopefully they can do better next year, cant play much worse then they did this year so that's a start.

 

[grieves]

One thing is for sure, you absolutely cannot have a culture where excuses fly. There are so many possible solutions that could be tried for any problem in this world, that it almost doesn't even matter if there are legitimate reasons or not, someone has to be accountable no matter how legitimate any reason might seem.

Give me a reason for failure and I will tell you the problem that you failed to properly address. Excuses cannot be allowed to become part of the culture. Plus just the fact that there is barely any experimentation going on only magnifies this point.

 

[10Ducky10]

Give me a reason for failure and I will tell you the problem that you failed to properly address. Excuses cannot be allowed to become part of the culture. Plus just the fact that there is barely any experimentation going on only magnifies this point.

An AHL D corps for most of the season.

 

[surixon]

One thing I would like the Maurice fans to explain is why are certain players like Scheifele not held to task for a declining defensive game?

You would think given the focus on defense that our coach would be holding the vets accountable for not exhibiting a good enough example. A good coach would be addressing the regression with the player and trying to get the player back on track.

Its times like these whe his "I don't coach specific players" pisses me off. As much as the roster was an issue, the lack of bothering to hold certain players accountable and actually coaching them/correcting bad habits when they need it is incredibly troubling.

I sometimes think Maurice cares more about staying in a positive light with his i group players then actually doing what he's paid to do and coach.

 

[grieves]

An AHL D corps for most of the season.

So did we adapt by changing the game plan to be more offensive minded? Was anything of the sort even tried?

We have extremely talented offensive players and a vezina-level goaltender. There would have been a way.

 

[Gm0ney]

They started very slow, but by December were looking more and more like the 2017/18 team, and then Buff and Ehlers and Morrissey went down, so I find it hard to assess how the season might have gone. I don't think Maurice changed the system, so much as the players performed poorly. I think the 2017/18 success might have gone to their heads early. Maurice can take some blame for that.

Whether the team might be tuning him out was discussed at length here as well - it's kind of a tell-tale sign of when to fire the coach.

Another thing discussed on these very boards was the timing mismatch between the old and new cores...the old one aging out just as the new one hits its stride. At least we got a season or two of overlap...but it seems those fears have come to pass and it's almost as if we're back to square one. Ehlers is now the same age as Wheeler was when the Jets first arrived here. Scheifele is now older than any of the core Atlanta players were then - Buff, Enstrom, Ladd, Wheeler, Little...

 

[tbcwpg]

One thing I would like the Maurice fans to explain is why are certain players like Scheifele not held to task for a declining defensive game?

You would think given the focus on defense that our coach would be holding the vets accountable for not exhibiting a good enough example. A good coach would be addressing the regression with the player and trying to get the player back on track.

Its times like these whe his "I don't coach specific players" pisses me off. As much as the roster was an issue, the lack of bothering to hold certain players accountable and actually coaching them/correcting bad habits when they need it is incredibly troubling.

I sometimes think Maurice cares more about staying in a positive light with his i group players then actually doing what he's paid to do and coach.

Starting discussions with "Maurice fans" and "Maurice haters" usually doesn't lead to great discussion.

I'd say for Scheifele it's a combination of his offensive output is great enough to outweigh the d-zone lapses, and just because a player isn't benched, it doesn't mean that it's not an area of focus.

 

[surixon]

Starting discussions with "Maurice fans" and "Maurice haters" usually doesn't lead to great discussion.

I'd say for Scheifele it's a combination of his offensive output is great enough to outweigh the d-zone lapses, and just because a player isn't benched, it doesn't mean that it's not an area of focus.

That is a pretty terrible take if that is what Maurice as justification. The issue is that it is getting worse, not better so even if its an area of focus the coach isn't able to get the player to correct the behavior

 

[tbcwpg]

That is a pretty terrible take if that is what Maurice as justification. The issue is that it is getting worse, not better so even if its an area of focus the coach isn't able to get the player to correct the behavior

And what steps do you take then? Do you think Scheifele is receiving bad coaching, in which case he's doing what he is being asked and wouldn't need to be "held accountable", or he's receiving good coaching and not doing what he's being asked. In that case, you have to weigh taking your 1C and PPG player out of the lineup and hope that benching him, works.

 

[surixon]

And what steps do you take then? Do you think Scheifele is receiving bad coaching, in which case he's doing what he is being asked and wouldn't need to be "held accountable", or he's receiving good coaching and not doing what he's being asked. In that case, you have to weigh taking your 1C and PPG player out of the lineup and hope that benching him, works.

As mentioned in another thread if you have specific expectations and agreed to accountability then it shouldn't be an issue. It's why coaches like Trotz have no issue benching their star center.

 

[tbcwpg]

As mentioned in another thread if you have specific expectations and agreed to accountability then it shouldn't be an issue. It's why coaches like Trotz have no issue benching their star center.

Trotz also plays an ultra defensive system.

I don't get the "held accountable" mantra, it's almost as though we'd be more ok with losing if people are getting benched, at least. Benching isn't always effective anyway.

 

[Whileee]

One thing I would like the Maurice fans to explain is why are certain players like Scheifele not held to task for a declining defensive game?

You would think given the focus on defense that our coach would be holding the vets accountable for not exhibiting a good enough example. A good coach would be addressing the regression with the player and trying to get the player back on track.

Its times like these whe his "I don't coach specific players" pisses me off. As much as the roster was an issue, the lack of bothering to hold certain players accountable and actually coaching them/correcting bad habits when they need it is incredibly troubling.

I sometimes think Maurice cares more about staying in a positive light with his i group players then actually doing what he's paid to do and coach.

I posted a somewhat extensive note in another thread... I'm not sure if it's all about Scheifele changing his effort or style. There is statistical evidence that Scheifele's defensive metrics were very, very good with Buff, and not without him (even back in earlier seasons). This is more pronounced for Scheifele than for other Jets' Cs - my hypothesis is that Scheifele needs a D that is very good at "stopping" the other team in his own zone, and without Buff (and Trouba), the Jets don't have that.

 

[10Ducky10]

So did we adapt by changing the game plan to be more offensive minded? Was anything of the sort even tried?

We have extremely talented offensive players and a vezina-level goaltender. There would have been a way.

You want us to be more offensive minded with Bitetto, Boolow, Dahlstrom, Sbisa, Poolman and Kuli playing the back end? Really?

The issue there was what the GM gave the caoch as D men.

 

[ps241]

I posted a somewhat extensive note in another thread... I'm not sure if it's all about Scheifele changing his effort or style. There is statistical evidence that Scheifele's defensive metrics were very, very good with Buff, and not without him (even back in earlier seasons). This is more pronounced for Scheifele than for other Jets' Cs - my hypothesis is that Scheifele needs a D that is very good at "stopping" the other team in his own zone, and without Buff (and Trouba), the Jets don't have that.

View attachment 364620

Makes sense that Mark is a complimentary D asset that needs others to do the heavy lifting like Buff. Always good to look at teammates impact on both O and D.

 

[10Ducky10]

Buff had great anticipation. He broke up plays in all zones.

 

[Roughneck1]

I posted a somewhat extensive note in another thread... I'm not sure if it's all about Scheifele changing his effort or style. There is statistical evidence that Scheifele's defensive metrics were very, very good with Buff, and not without him (even back in earlier seasons). This is more pronounced for Scheifele than for other Jets' Cs - my hypothesis is that Scheifele needs a D that is very good at "stopping" the other team in his own zone, and without Buff (and Trouba), the Jets don't have that.

View attachment 364620

His numbers this year will look worse too because the Jets played a pretty passive system in the Jets end. They basically took away the middle of the ice and let the other teams cycle and get low quality shots from the outside. I suppose our D group could be to blame why this was played but it’s what I saw.

 

[SUX2BU]

If we moved Winnipeg to Tampa and Tampa to Winnipeg we wouldn't be having this dicussion right now we would be waiting for game 3 against Dallas with us up 2 to 0.

And we would still have Bogosian....

 

[Whileee]

Makes sense that Mark is a complimentary D asset that needs others to do the heavy lifting like Buff. Always good to look at teammates impact on both O and D.

In the other thread I presented data on 2019/20: basically, Scheifele had bad xGA/60 with Poolman and Pionk, but very good with DeMelo.

 

[Whileee]

His numbers this year will look worse too because the Jets played a pretty passive system in the Jets end. They basically took away the middle of the ice and let the other teams cycle and get low quality shots from the outside. I suppose our D group could be to blame why this was played but it’s what I saw.

In 50 minutes with DeMelo, Scheifele's xGA/60 was a very tidy 1.49. That's based on only 50 minutes together, but that's much lower than Scheifele's metrics with Buff or Trouba.

 

[ps241]

In the other thread I presented data on 2019/20: basically, Scheifele had bad xGA/60 with Poolman and Pionk, but very good with DeMelo.

Good to take the deeper dives. I really think we just need to clean up the D core a bit. If and it’s a big If we can get DeMelo resigned and add a stop gap asset for The cap hit Only we might feel the trend reverse from last season. It’s never going to be easy when most of your D roster make $1 million or less. They threw the kitchen sink at it but there was a talent gap.

 

[10Ducky10]

Good to take the deeper dives. I really think we just need to clean up the D core a bit. If and it’s a big If we can get DeMelo resigned and add a stop gap asset for The cap hit Only we might feel the trend reverse from last season. It’s never going to be easy when most of your D roster make $1 million or less. They threw the kitchen sink at it but there was a talent gap.

Why do you think it is a big if that he re-signs?