Claude Giroux: Part "Fire, Air, Water, Earth"

[Starat327]

Sometimes i wonder if people think theyre watching basketball or some sport other than hockey when they come on here.

 

[Striiker]

Blah blah blah blah.

If you have to make excuses for him, he aint doing his job.

This is exactly the kind of response I expect.

You actively ignore what's going on because you just want to complain and scapegoat.

 

[GKJ]

It's only unacceptable if you ignore context.

The first 6 games of that sample was when he was injured, the next six games were just a disaster for the whole team thanks to Hakstol doing stupid things, the next 3 are worthless because they were treated as exhibition games and after a 5 month break, and then these last 10 have been mostly a mixture of trash coaching and trash luck.

He's played well enough to deserve far more points than he has, especially this year, and those lack of points don't make the good play magically disappear. All he can do is play well himself... but he can't control the coaches mistakes, the play of his teammates, or the play of the opponents. There's far too many outside factors to be able to strictly look at points and think that tells the whole story.

As I showed a little while back, his scoring chances have stayed roughly the same all throughout his playoffs career, with the exception of that injured year. But sometimes good play doesn't get rewarded and he's not able to control his teammates or coaches.

Well enough doesn’t work anymore. The only time he’s been productive in the playoffs is when he had Briere as cover, and Briere was a high-level performer in the playoffs. If the bubble is getting to him or whatever, that is what it is. But the best players in this franchise’s history don’t get asked these questions in the playoffs. His defining time is right now, and he’s looked less dangerous offensively than Tyler Pitlick has.

If he’s supposed to be driving the bus then they need a new driver. Preferably someone who I know can help score and take heat off of him but we’ve been talking about that for years now, and now he’s not even playing center.

 

[Striiker]

Well enough doesn’t work anymore. The only time he’s been productive in the playoffs is when he had Briere as cover, and Briere was a high-level performer in the playoffs. If the bubble is getting to him or whatever, that is what it is. But the best players in this franchise’s history don’t get asked these questions in the playoffs. His defining time is right now, and he’s looked less dangerous offensively than Tyler Pitlick has.

Simply not true.

He was clearly our best forward in the Pens series and Pitlick absolutely has not been more dangerous offensively. The problem isn't Girouxs play this year, the problem is he's not getting the rewards he deserves.

 

[GKJ]

Simply not true.

He was clearly our best forward in the Pens series and Pitlick absolutely has not been more dangerous offensively. The problem isn't Girouxs play this year, the problem is he's not getting the rewards he deserves.

The problem is he has a resume where he doesn’t score in the playoffs when he is the top dog. There were circumstances like bad coaching and Couturier being hurt, but Giroux is 32, and the playoffs are a small-sample, results-oriented business. Run all the numbers you want, he has not looked dangerous at any point in these playoffs.

 

[deadhead]

Giroux is clearly past his prime, which is not surprising, he's 32 and he was never an "uber-talent" like Crosby.
Doesn't mean he's still not an effective veteran, but he shouldn't be on the 1st line anymore.
His best value going forward is reduced ES minutes, but remain on the PP1.
On the power play, with more space to work in, he's still highly effective.

It's been 7 years since he scored at a top line rate at ES in the playoffs, the smaller windows have become a real problem for him.

 

[Striiker]

The problem is he has a resume where he doesn’t score in the playoffs when he is the top dog. There were circumstances like bad coaching and Couturier being hurt, but Giroux is 32, and the playoffs are a small-sample, results-oriented business. Run all the numbers you want, he has not looked dangerous at any point in these playoffs.

Again, that's not true. He scored in the playoffs as the top dog in the last series Briere played here.

Difference is, after that series the team got three new atrocious head coaches, went into a rebuild, and now they're getting completely screwed by the current coach who is stiffing everyone's scoring.

And if you don't think he's been dangerous at any point in these playoffs then the problem is your eye test, not the player. Myself and others are seeing it. You guys just seem to forget anything that doesn't end in a goal.

 

[GKJ]

Again, that's not true. He scored in the playoffs as the top dog in the last series Briere played here.

Difference is, after that series the team got three new atrocious head coaches, went into a rebuild, and now they're getting completely screwed by the current coach who is stiffing everyone's scoring.

And if you don't think he's been dangerous at any point in these playoffs then the problem is your eye test, not the player. Myself and others are seeing it.

the last series Briere played here they got wiped off the map by the Devils. I really don’t give a shit what others think they’re seeing, the best players aren’t having this conversation, their analytics are leading to results. Yesterday was probably his best 5v5 game, because it was for mostly everyone, and he was still MIA for large stretches.

This is the 3rd coach since Lavy left, it’s time to stop blaming him. Vigneault actually has playoff results.

 

[TCTC]

Giroux is clearly past his prime, which is not surprising, he's 32 and he was never an "uber-talent" like Crosby.
Doesn't mean he's still not an effective veteran, but he shouldn't be on the 1st line anymore.
His best value going forward is reduced ES minutes, but remain on the PP1.
On the power play, with more space to work in, he's still highly effective.

It's been 7 years since he scored at a top line rate at ES in the playoffs, the smaller windows have become a real problem for him.

Patrick Kane is only one year younger and he looks as dangerous as ever. And he also doesn't need Toews to carry him. I always thought Kane and Giroux were on the same level.

 

[deadhead]

Patrick Kane is only one year younger and he looks as dangerous as ever. And he also doesn't need Toews to carry him. I always thought Kane and Giroux were on the same level.

Kane is horrible defensively, so you have to take his offensive production with a grain of salt.
Example, this year's playoffs, CF 44.06%, xGF 37.63%, HDCF 34.38%
Last time he had a playoff HDCF > 50% was 2012-13.
He can score for both teams.

 

[Striiker]

the last series Briere played here they got wiped off the map by the Devils. I really don’t give a shit what others think they’re seeing, the best players aren’t having this conversation, their analytics are leading to results. Yesterday was probably his best 5v5 game, because it was for mostly everyone, and he was still MIA for large stretches.

This is the 3rd coach since Lavy left, it’s time to stop blaming him. Vigneault actually has playoff results.

Still incorrect.

And I see that you also don't know how to evaluate coaches, so I guess we're done here.

You just want a scapegoat. You don't actually care how Giroux is playing or why he and the rest of the team aren't scoring.

 

[renberg]

Eddie O made an interesting point last night which bears discussion. He claimed that analytics are being used to the point where they are affecting the play of guys on the ice. Maybe that isn’t always good since it might be moving some players away from what they do well, negating some of their strengths.
Giroux at 32 isn’t what he once was but that doesn’t mean that he has no value. Bergeron is 35 and he still has great value on the ice for Boston but his role has changed quite a bit in the last five seasons. The club needs to reassess what Giroux’s role should be considering his skill set at this time. I’m sure that Giroux and A.V. will have a serious discussion along those lines in the off season.

 

[Striiker]

Just a recap since people either don't remember or are choosing to forget

Year (games)	Points
2008-2009 (6)	5	Rookie year
2009-2010 (23)	21	Cup finals run, played great in the bottom six.
2010-2011 (11)	12	Led team in scoring
2011-2012 (10)	17	Dominated, led team in scoring
2013-2014 (7)	6	Led team in scoring
2015-2016 (6)	1	Injured (and our top scorer in that series had 2 points)
2017-2018 (6)	3	Hakstol was awful, only Couturier scored more (he had 5 points in the last game)
2019-2020 (10)	5	Playing very well and one of our 2 best forwards

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So his three years of lesser scoring are injury, a disaster series, and now outside of his control. Sure doesn't seem like there's a good reason to be whining about him, does it?
Especially considering the fact that he's continued to prove he's still capable of playing at a very high level.

 

[GKJ]

Still incorrect.

And I see that you also don't know how to evaluate coaches, so I guess we're done here.

You just want a scapegoat. You don't actually care how Giroux is playing or why he and the rest of the team aren't scoring.

Bro, I’ve been around here a long time, you don’t just get to be done with my points just because you can’t accept another form of reasoning.

I care that the best player on the team has been a non-factor in the playoffs for almost a decade. 3 goals in 32 playoff games - $8m/year players DO NOT DO THAT. Full stop. I defended the guy for years but he comes up small when it matters most. That’s just the results. The only thing that can be done is to produce different results.

You know, Vigneault isn’t the one losing puck battles and making turnovers and not taking easy outs in the zone. This is a core group that’s been here when the fan base has been at its most apathetic. You can’t go through this many coaches and keep blaming the coach, holy shit we reamed out Hakstol for NEVER keeping guys accountable, now it’s ok because they get shots but rarely get high danger chances.

 

[Striiker]

Bro, I’ve been around here a long time, you don’t just get to be done with my points just because you can’t accept another form of reasoning.

I care that the best player on the team has been a non-factor in the playoffs for almost a decade. 3 goals in 32 playoff games - $8m/year players DO NOT DO THAT. Full stop. I defended the guy for years but he comes up small when it matters most. That’s just the results. The only thing that can be done is to produce different results.

You know, Vigneault isn’t the one losing puck battles and making turnovers and not taking easy outs in the zone. This is a core group that’s been here when the fan base has been at its most apathetic. You can’t go through this many coaches and keep blaming the coach, holy shit we reamed out Hakstol for NEVER keeping guys accountable, now it’s ok because they get shots but rarely get high danger chances.

This isn't another form of reasoning, it's a complete lack of reasoning. You've resorted to just making thing up so you can scapegoat him and ignore everything that doesn't go along with your terribly flawed conclusion.

He hasn't come up small when it matters most or been a non-factor in the playoffs for almost a decade. Both of these statements are completely false.
Then you attempt to defend the staff by making more ridiculous statements.

So yeah, done. Not gonna waste my time.

 

[GKJ]

This isn't another form of reasoning, it's a complete lack of reasoning. You've resorted to just making thing up so you can scapegoat him and ignore everything that doesn't go along with your terribly flawed conclusion.

He hasn't come up small when it matters most or been a non-factor in the playoffs for almost a decade. Both of these statements are completely false.
Then you attempt to defend the staff by making more ridiculous statements.

So yeah, done. Not gonna waste my time.

here’s the thing, there’s no more coaches after this. Everyone responsible for bringing in the cure group is gone. And for younger players on the team but that’s different, the only one of those guys. If it doesn’t work now, they’re gone. This is the first time in 8 years that group has made it out of round 1, they’re fortunate Hextall had such a risk-adverse approach and kept them together because no one else would. So if you’re just done, you can’t defend yourself because holding those accountable would just screw up your points.

 

[FadeToBlack]

End of story, G hasn't and won't get it done. If I'm Fletcher, I shop him around and see what we can get for him, to possibly retool our top line in combination with trading some picks/prospects to get Voracek/Coots a pure shooter. He's still two full seasons at an $8.275m cap hit from FA. His actual $ owed is $12.2m against that $16.55m cap hit, so there's a substantial $ savings to a cap floor team especially that last year of his contract, so he may have some value even to a team like that.

I have 2 Giroux jerseys, by the way. I am not a hater, but this is a business, and the business is lifting the cup. Hard decisions have to be made, watching Carter and Richards (guys I wanted in the O&B forever) get traded taught me that.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

For purely rational hockey reasons, I think we should trade Hayes and then see where we are. I think it's best if we trade him today, please and thank you.

 

[Starat327]

For purely rational hockey reasons, I think we should trade Hayes and then see where we are. I think it's best if we trade him today, please and thank you.

Its no less irrational than anything else being proposed here, so let's do it.

 

[Striiker]

End of story, G hasn't and won't get it done. If I'm Fletcher, I shop him around and see what we can get for him, to possibly retool our top line in combination with trading some picks/prospects to get Voracek/Coots a pure shooter. He's still two full seasons at an $8.275m cap hit from FA. His actual $ owed is $12.2m against that $16.55m cap hit, so there's a substantial $ savings to a cap floor team especially that last year of his contract, so he may have some value even to a team like that.

I have 2 Giroux jerseys, by the way. I am not a hater, but this is a business, and the business is lifting the cup. Hard decisions have to be made, watching Carter and Richards (guys I wanted in the O&B forever) get traded taught me that.

All emotion, no logic or truth.

 

[FadeToBlack]

All emotion, no logic or truth.

You want logic?

Then logic was implied, but... He still has plenty of value as a good player who can drive play and put up points (at least in the regular season), win faceoffs, and all-around excellent two-way play and then he has intangibles on top of that. His value right now is probably as high as it will ever be for the remainder of his career, excepting maybe after next season.

If we could get a relatively cost-controlled, younger goal-scoring winger for him, even tossing in a higher pick and a solid D prospect, I do it. I was ready to trade a pile for Svechnikov when it was rumored the 'Canes were shopping the pick, because I have firmly believed the Flyers need to remedy the organizational draft philosophy that focuses on playmakers over shooters with a few high-quality shoot-first players once in a blue moon to balance things out.

 

[Striiker]

You want logic?

Then logic was implied, but... He still has plenty of value as a good player who can drive play and put up points (at least in the regular season), win faceoffs, and all-around excellent two-way play and then he has intangibles on top of that. His value right now is probably as high as it will ever be for the remainder of his career, excepting maybe after next season.

If we could get a relatively cost-controlled, younger goal-scoring winger for him, even tossing in a higher pick and a solid D prospect, I do it. I was ready to trade a pile for Svechnikov when it was rumored the 'Canes were shopping the pick, because I have firmly believed the Flyers need to remedy the organizational draft philosophy that focuses on playmakers over shooters with a few high-quality shoot-first players once in a blue moon to balance things out.

I was referring to the "End of story, G hasn't and won't get it done" part, because the rest of it is just too unlikely to even bother considering.

 

[FadeToBlack]

I was referring to the "End of story, G hasn't and won't get it done" part, because the rest of it is just too unlikely to even bother considering.

He hasn't won a cup yet (fact), and it is my opinion he won't, at least not here, as a cornerstone piece. If he does stick around and takes a nice reduction in salary after 2022, I could see him as a nice second/third line complimentary piece for a cup contender in the twilight of his career.

 

[Striiker]

He hasn't won a cup yet (fact), and it is my opinion he won't, at least not here, as a cornerstone piece. If he does stick around and takes a nice reduction in salary after 2022, I could see him as a nice second/third line complimentary piece for a cup contender in the twilight of his career.

No hockey player can win a cup on his own. The fact that he hasn't won one says literally nothing about him as an individual player.

It's not his fault that he's been on awful rebuilding teams for most of his time here.

 

[Nabrules]

Idc how good or bad the analytics on him look, he didn’t look like the same G all year.

Truly heartbreaking that it seems he’s on the decline right as our young guns are rising. I will never blame a player for declining tho, he’s given our team his blood, sweat and tears.