Claude Giroux - Hart Trophy

[983 others]

Why is it that in other threads it’s “Coots is amazing, is Provorov a top 10 defenseman, Konecny is awesome, Voracek is so underrated and underappreciated, Patrick is playing so well lately and looks like a future elite 2C, etc”, but now Giroux has carried the Flyers on his back all year? Give me a break.

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

Why is it that in other threads it’s “Coots is amazing, is Provorov a top 10 defenseman, Konecny is awesome, Voracek is so underrated and underappreciated, Patrick is playing so well lately and looks like a future elite 2C, etc”, but now Giroux has carried the Flyers on his back all year? Give me a break.

Because his DPPG is so good and makes him the face of the league, apparently.

Honestly, it's alright to admit that a fantastic player has fantastic players helping him. He has some hard fanboys this year though.

 

[Striiker]

Because his DPPG is so good and makes him the face of the league, apparently.

Honestly, it's alright to admit that a fantastic player has fantastic players helping him. He has some hard fanboys this year though.

Not many players (if any, I haven’t looked at too many guys) have a higher DPPG and that’s becuase they can’t do what Giroux does.

He’s considered elite for a reason.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I agree but when is the last time an Art Ross winner wasnt at least nominated?

Here are the Art Ross winners who finished outside of the top three in Hart voting:

Year	Art Ross winner	Rank in Hart voting
1950	Ted Lindsay	7
1954	Gordie Howe	4
1955	Bernie Geoffrion	7
1958	Dickie Moore	8
1959	Dickie Moore	5
1964	Stan Mikita	5
1965	Stan Mikita	7
1990	Wayne Gretzky	4
1992	Mario Lemieux	5
1994	Wayne Gretzky	NR
2013	Martin St. Louis	9
2015	Jamie Benn	12

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It wasn't uncommon for the Art Ross winner to not be a Hart finalist during the Original Six era (probably because the league was smaller, so the voters spent more time watching the players, rather than relying on statistics).

The last three players who won the Art Ross, without getting a Hart nomination, were all on teams that missed the playoffs.

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

Not many players (if any, I haven’t looked at too many guys) have a higher DPPG and that’s becuase they can’t do what Giroux does.

He’s considered elite for a reason.

Explain this magic stat because I've literally never f***ing heard of it. Where is it tracked? Why are you the only one using it? Why does it sound completely made up?

It's a joke, right?

In fact, googling that shit results in this thread. That's it. That's all there is.

Stop using made up crap.

 

[Rich Nixon]

That's fair but I think it is also fair to say that each of those guys has been much better than anyone expected, even Flyers fans.

Couturier yes, but most Flyers fans knew Ghost was pretty damn special and his season doesn't surprise me one bit. Both he and Giroux came into last season coming off the same exact surgery and had what will likely end up the worst seasons of their careers (up until they're getting ready to retire, that is).

But yeah, no comment on Hart, don't really care about that argument. But Giroux's 2 weak seasons have gotten him somewhat underrated around here (4-5 years ago it was the opposite). He's one of the best hockey players on the face of this planet. The idea that Couturier is somehow responsible for his return to dominance is laughable. Couturier was always more than a 40 point player, but he sure as hell isn't a 70+ point player on his own. Funny thing is, his goal scoring has been absent for more than a month (5 goals in his last 28 games after 26 in his first 50) and Giroux is still piling up points.

 

[Striiker]

Explain this magic stat because I've literally never ****ing heard of it. Where is it tracked? Why are you the only one using it? Why does it sound completely made up?

It's a joke, right?

In fact, googling that **** results in this thread. That's it. That's all there is.

Stop using made up crap.

I can understand not liking the results on an evaluation, but to try to discredit the statistic itself... come on man... this isn't +/-.

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

I can understand not liking the results on an evaluation, but to try to discredit the statistic itself... come on man... this isn't +/-.

It's literally not a statistic.

How about instead of dodging, you spell it out for me? How do you get DPPG? Where is it tracked? What websites can I use? Name other posters that have used it? Give me specific stats on other players' DPPG? Literally just prove that it is real.

[mod]

While I'm at it, DOES ANYBODY ELSE HERE USE THAT STAT? DOES ANYBODY TRACK IT OR KNOW WHAT IT IS?

 

[Adam Warlock]

Here are the Art Ross winners who finished outside of the top three in Hart voting:

Year	Art Ross winner	Rank in Hart voting
1950	Ted Lindsay	7
1954	Gordie Howe	4
1955	Bernie Geoffrion	7
1958	Dickie Moore	8
1959	Dickie Moore	5
1964	Stan Mikita	5
1965	Stan Mikita	7
1990	Wayne Gretzky	4
1992	Mario Lemieux	5
1994	Wayne Gretzky	NR
2013	Martin St. Louis	9
2015	Jamie Benn	12

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It wasn't uncommon for the Art Ross winner to not be a Hart finalist during the Original Six era (probably because the league was smaller, so the voters spent more time watching the players, rather than relying on statistics).

The last three players who won the Art Ross, without getting a Hart nomination, were all on teams that missed the playoffs.

Thanks. Benn and St. Louis mustve slipped my mind.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not arguing G should get Hart, but if 80 point winger and 60+ point Dman on the same team is reason not to be named then why Malkin or MacKinnon should be considered?

Because on HF, if you play with good players, that automatically means you should never win the Hart. It's basically been HF's argument whenever Crosby is in the running.

 

[Striiker]

Because on HF, if you play with good players, that automatically means you should never win the Hart. It's basically been HF's argument whenever Crosby is in the running.

Apparently making your teammates better is a bad thing.

 

[nightfighter]

This is great. Even better than loose puck recoveries. Somebody get chayka on the line to offer Striiker a job.

 

[The Rage Kage]

It's literally not a statistic.

How about instead of dodging, you spell it out for me? How do you get DPPG? Where is it tracked? What websites can I use? Name other posters that have used it? Give me specific stats on other players' DPPG? Literally just prove that it is real.

[mod]

While I'm at it, DOES ANYBODY ELSE HERE USE THAT STAT? DOES ANYBODY TRACK IT OR KNOW WHAT IT IS?

Can you explain to me DPPG and what it's derived from? Obviously it sounds like a way of analyzing production.

Its an older stat, it mainly circulated around some internet forums in the early 2000s. The guy who first started tracking it had a website, though he gave up on hockey after the 2005 lockout and shutdown the website, he let a few people in on how he came to it @Striiker may be one of them, which is why it isnt very common. It makes use of a mixture of tertiary assists, zone entries, goals, assists, and teammates points with or without the player to determine how much a player helps vs relies on their teammates for their success. Giroux and Crosby are the leaders for the last few years (Giroux over Crosby by a few DPPG), players like Kopitar and Malkin are lower, suggesting that they benefit more from their teammates than their teammates benefit from them.

 

[Striiker]

Its an older stat, it mainly circulated around some internet forums in the early 2000s. The guy who first started tracking it had a website, though he gave up on hockey after the 2005 lockout and shutdown the website, he let a few people in on how he came to it @Striiker may be one of them, which is why it isnt very common. It makes use of a mixture of tertiary assists, zone entries, goals, assists, and teammates points with or without the player to determine how much a player helps vs relies on their teammates for their success. Giroux and Crosby are the leaders for the last few years (Giroux over Crosby by a few DPPG), players like Kopitar and Malkin are lower, suggesting that they benefit more from their teammates than their teammates benefit from them.

Pretty much spot on, although it was actually slightly before the 2005 lockout. It was because he got a new job and was unable to continue both the website and this job at the same time. He valued his work and his high standards above all else, so he refused to sell it or make it public (I suspect in case he ever comes back to it).

I know him because he's a close friend of my brother-in-law, so he shared with me allowed me to use it as I see fit for my personal records/evaluations. Although obviously I wasn't given permission to share the exact proprietary formula.

So you can disregard it, but I wouldn't have shared it unless I was 100% convinced it was it was comprehensive and relevant to this discussion.

 

[Adrianopolous]

Pretty much spot on, although it was actually slightly before the 2005 lockout. It was because he got a new job and was unable to continue both the website and this job at the same time. He valued his work and his high standards above all else, so he refused to sell it or make it public (I suspect in case he ever comes back to it).

I know him because he's a close friend of my brother-in-law, so he shared with me allowed me to use it as I see fit for my personal records/evaluations. Although obviously I wasn't given permission to share the exact proprietary formula.

So you can disregard it, but I wouldn't have shared it unless I was 100% convinced it was it was comprehensive and relevant to this discussion.

Does he plan on ever returning?

 

[Striiker]

Does he plan on ever returning?

I haven't talked to him for a few months, but last time I did he was really happy with his new job and extremely busy, so nothing imminent.

I think something drastic would have to change to make him quit that and focus on this full time again, but honestly it's probably better for his quality of life if he stays with that great job.

 

[Morlu]

The Hart trophy this year is so hard to predict, honestly could be any 5-6 guys

McDavid will probably take it cause so many players will split the vote . So many people deserve it. Been a good year for hockey.

 

[Captain Bowie]

This is such a tough year to pick, too many guys having great years but no one having a historical year or breaking away from the rest.

McDavid would win it in a "Had the best season" sense. I was in the MacKinnon boat much of the year but he's fallen a bit, and staying healthy and playing all the games is part of winning the Hart, you're not helping your team if you're out of the lineup. Malkin and Kucherov are both right there as well. Giroux's made a push of late. Kopitar and Hall both have a claim by being far and away the best player on their teams while having great seasons.

I could see any of the top 5 winning it or not even being a finalist. Sure will be exciting. McDavid probably the least likely to not be top 3, because most voters probably put him 2nd after the guy who they think is the real MVP simply for having the most points by a fair margin (at the moment).

 

[Spawn]

McDavid will probably take it cause so many players will split the vote . So many people deserve it. Been a good year for hockey.

Nah, there are too many hockey writers who think playoffs are a requirement. McDavid wont crack a lot of guys top 5 ballots I bet.

 

[Sasso09]

This is such a tough year to pick, too many guys having great years but no one having a historical year or breaking away from the rest.

McDavid would win it in a "Had the best season" sense. I was in the MacKinnon boat much of the year but he's fallen a bit, and staying healthy and playing all the games is part of winning the Hart, you're not helping your team if you're out of the lineup. Malkin and Kucherov are both right there as well. Giroux's made a push of late. Kopitar and Hall both have a claim by being far and away the best player on their teams while having great seasons.

I could see any of the top 5 winning it or not even being a finalist. Sure will be exciting. McDavid probably the least likely to not be top 3, because most voters probably put him 2nd after the guy who they think is the real MVP simply for having the most points by a fair margin (at the moment).

So true....

If I had to bet on it though....i think I'd have to say.... well I was gonna say Kucherov but I can't, then Malkin but can't say That either...

Kucherov
Malkin
Giroux
Hall
Kopitar
McDavid
MacKinnon

Literally all have the same chance imo

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Why, currently, would Giroux have a chance over MacKinnon? Way fewer goals, better team, and he's scored as many points as MacKinnon but in 8 more games

I know, I know, MacKinnon has had a cold handful of games at the worst possible time and everyone is hopping off the wagon, but Giroux doesn't have much of an argument here.

 

[Laveuglette]

Just read the first page... guys, Couturier has been amazing, but don't kid yourself, Giroux is the much better player and deserves Hart talk.

 

[Adrianopolous]

Just read the first page... guys, Couturier has been amazing, but don't kid yourself, Giroux is the much better player and deserves Hart talk.

Can't both be true?

 

[boredmale]

I have to think if Colorado misses the playoffs Giroux's chances increase bigtime

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Why, currently, would Giroux have a chance over MacKinnon? Way fewer goals, better team, and he's scored as many points as MacKinnon but in 8 more games

I know, I know, MacKinnon has had a cold handful of games at the worst possible time and everyone is hopping off the wagon, but Giroux doesn't have much of an argument here.

I hate whenever people use "more goals" as an argument, especially when comparing a player to a guy who's a playmaker.