Confirmed with Link: Chris Tierney Extension: 2 Years, $3.5 AAV

[Cosmix]

It's both actually

I never said a thing about Gudbranson

And no you don't really deal with intimidation by being mentally tough as an individual and as a team.

I am not certain about the two things you think are needed to address physical intimidation; however, I think you are referring to physically strong players who play both a skilled and physical game (e.g., Tkachuk, Fisher), when required, and to having some players who are big and strong enough to address goon type tactics employed by other teams (e.g., Carkner, Neil, McGrattan), when required. If so, I agree with you.

 

[Cosmix]

To think people thought Tierney would be our 4th line centre.

On a good team yes. But on the Sens like I've been saying, hes playing in the top 6.

A shame because I think hes a pretty useless player.

My view of Tierney is that he is a decent third line Center who can play higher in the lineup on a temporary basis, but is not sufficiently skilled to be a top 6 player on a good team. He is not useless.

 

[Sweatred]

My view of Tierney is that he is a decent third line Center who can play higher in the lineup on a temporary basis, but is not sufficiently skilled to be a top 6 player on a good team. He is not useless.

I’ve sorta viewed him as a very good 4C and stop gap 2C. I’m curious how he would preform as a shut down 3C or in Pager’s roll last season.

 

[Cosmix]

I think that fits the intent of what most mean

Lottery team evokes the idea of a team who finishes in the position where the lottery winners woukd end up picking. It's not tecnically correct (the best kind of correct) but is a more useful interpretationof the term imo.

Bottom-Dweller is a better term for teams near the bottom of the league.

 

[Cosmix]

I’ve sorta viewed him as a very good 4C and stop gap 2C. I’m curious how he would preform as a shut down 3C or in Pager’s roll last season.

I do not view the third line as strictly a “shut-down” line which implies playing against other team’s top line to prevent them from scoring (defensive oriented). Some teams try to have a line that can shut-down other team’s top lines, but that only works about half the time (on home ice). Some teams try to match their top line against the other team’s top line.

Personally, I like to have skilled lines that can score but also are defensively responsible. But that is hard to achieve and the skill sets of the players you have can limit what your team can reasonably do.

 

[Cosmix]

The Sens seem to turn into p***ycats when Boyle & Tanner Glass were having their way with the team until Carkner & Neil stepped in to stop it. Same for the teams that the Leafs knocked out of the playoffs four times.

And Evander Kane.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

The Sens seem to turn into p***ycats when Boyle & Tanner Glass were having their way with the team until Carkner & Neil stepped in to stop it. Same for the teams that the Leafs knocked out of the playoffs four times.

Guys like Smith and Pageau and Phaneuf and all the regular guys who played physical were playing physical in that series. Tanner Glass did nothing to stop that. Maybe he intimidated a player or two so we brought in Neil as retribution and he went after Glass. It didn't change anything else. It was a rallying point but it didn't deter anything for the rest of the series as Neil was scratched for most of it.

As for Carkner? I'd say that he was actually kind of a deterrent because he didn't give a shit about getting suspended. Players were legit afraid that he'd do something crazy. He was a rare enforcer in that he didn't just get in staged fights with other goons. Gudbranson, Brown and Watson are nothing like Carkner.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

It's both actually

I never said a thing about Gudbranson

And no you don't really deal with intimidation by being mentally tough as an individual and as a team.

Please elaborate.

Players like Patrick Kane, Kucherov, Point, Toews, Bergeron, Pastrnak, Kuznetzov, MacKinnon seem to get by without having a player like Austin Watson on their line. How do they avoid being intimidated? DO they fight every player who comes their way?

I'm genuinely interested in your theory as to why they aren't intimidated.

 

[OD99]

As for Carkner? I'd say that he was actually kind of a deterrent because he didn't give a shit about getting suspended. Players were legit afraid that he'd do something crazy. He was a rare enforcer in that he didn't just get in staged fights with other goons. Gudbranson, Brown and Watson are nothing like Carkner.

I agree. There just aren't many guys in the NHL anymore who only fill an enforcer role. Each roster spot is too important to have guys who aren't actual hockey players.

Teams play big together these days and someone stands up each shift if needed so I am not worried about TS at all.

That said, clearly Senators management wanted to get a lot bigger and meaner and they accomplished that. Whether we are a better team because of it will remain to be seen but in the short term we have players that will ALLOW our team to play more in your face hockey and I think that may be the bigger key.

Seems they are building a big, fast aggressive team and when you play like that other players may not react well - now we will have a few more guys who can step in to drop the gloves and deal with it.

 

[JD1]

Please elaborate.

Players like Patrick Kane, Kucherov, Point, Toews, Bergeron, Pastrnak, Kuznetzov, MacKinnon seem to get by without having a player like Austin Watson on their line. How do they avoid being intimidated? DO they fight every player who comes their way?

I'm genuinely interested in your theory as to why they aren't intimidated.

You deal with intimidation by pushing back on it

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Not the first time I read that the AAV is high, but really?

I mean 3.5 is pretty much the NHL average salary. Tierney would have gotten a bit more if it wasn't for the pandemic affecting the NHL market. He has stats to back it up

We also have to take into account, that virtually everyone on the team has more icetime and opportunity than most other teams in the league. That alone slightly inflates stats and value....but it's an artificial inflation. If the team actually improves with the kids, suddenly those 'good' contracts start looking lousy when the vets drop down the lineup.

That's why I like the length of the deal. Got to keep those vet deals as short as possible in a situation like this.

 

[Xspyrit]

We also have to take into account, that virtually everyone on the team has more icetime and opportunity than most other teams in the league. That alone slightly inflates stats and value....but it's an artificial inflation. If the team actually improves with the kids, suddenly those 'good' contracts start looking lousy when the vets drop down the lineup.

That's why I like the length of the deal. Got to keep those vet deals as short as possible in a situation like this.

Yeah but it's also what the player does with the ice-time. Look at Pageau, proved himself and got a 5.0 AAV as a result. Tierney is not as good but has been historically more productive so 3.5 certainly doesn't look bad vs Pageau. Like I said, Tierney gets more in a non-covid world

I understand your point that Tierney's value diminishes if he gets bumped by younger guys but the way this contract is made is also why he is tradeable or a possibility to be taken by Seattle... Going long term with Tierney would have been way less ideal but 2 years at 3.5 is absolutely no risk

Finally, yes Tierney got an opportunity in Ottawa but he also did in San Jose and had 40 pts in 2017-18. San Jose lacked forward depht that season but they were a contender and Tierney did well.

40-50 pts forwards are easily worth more than 3.5 in a non-covid environment, opportunity or not. Teams can't really use that argument during negotiations and say to the agent "your player was only good because we allowed him to be"

I say all this as a big non-Tierney fan.

Sure, call it what you want, but there are less and less teams willing to do that - or rather, there should be less and less teams because inevitably we hear about the whining and crying about cap space and if we could only move PLAYER X, then we could sign yet another guy to another massive contract that in 5 years they'll be trying anything to get rid of.

Some cycles are smart, some are meant to be broken.

If you want to look at how it's done correctly, then look no further than TB, that has but 1 guy signed past 35. And even they're in cap hell, but they paid their players correctly (perhaps not Johnson etc., but the idea is there) and won a Cup without dipping out into the realms of the dead contract, the over 35 and done contract.

Your initial point is that "many GMs cant resist giving massive money to plays as free agents that take them into their late 30s". They know the risk, they know players are always 1 injury away from becoming less efficient. They have the approbation to proceed by their ownership. Rich teams like Montreal (for example) are not scared to sign players (although Bergevin is a real penny pincher) and they'll deal with it if necessary (look at Alzner). Do you know much money the Habs print every year?

TB is one the favorite destination in the NHL. Very low taxes and the perfect weather all year. But yes they did a great job with their salary cap structure. I don't think it's realistic to expect that in certain markets though.

 

[Cosmix]

You deal with intimidation by pushing back on it

I remember watching the Oilers teams that would score goals against opponents who took bad penalties by trying to run the Oilers out of the building by playing physically. One of the deterrents against taking liberties against the Oilers skilled players was the fear of the goals being scored against them. But the Oilers had other deterrents as well, named Messier and Semenko.

 

[Leafmealone11]

Please elaborate.

Players like Patrick Kane, Kucherov, Point, Toews, Bergeron, Pastrnak, Kuznetzov, MacKinnon seem to get by without having a player like Austin Watson on their line. How do they avoid being intimidated? DO they fight every player who comes their way?

I'm genuinely interested in your theory as to why they aren't intimidated.

Those guys you listed are crazy skilled players and play by the motto don't want none don't start none.
The sens will not be playing like a team full of super stars they will be asked to play smash mouth all game long, they brought in these guys to show them how it's done and to be around when the other teams want to hold someone accountable
You can't get a bunch of kids to be big bullies if everyone kicks their ass and sends them packing. It's not about fighting or playing dirtty its about playing so hard the other team would rather make money against everyone or anyone else.

 

[JD1]

I remember watching the Oilers teams that would score goals against opponents who took bad penalties by trying to run the Oilers out of the building by playing physically. One of the deterrents against taking liberties against the Oilers skilled players was the fear of the goals being scored against them. But the Oilers had other deterrents as well, named Messier and Semenko.

Ya i remember those days too. Welcome to your carlsberg years

I'm not so much a deterrent or enforcer guy. The enforcer thing was effective back in the day, not so much now. I believe being able to play hard physical hockey is important but so is being able to play with some pace. We appear to be assembling a team that can do both and I've got no issues with some bigger tougher guys in the lineup in the next couple of seasons as we break in a young roster

 

[Alf Silfversson]

You deal with intimidation by pushing back on it

But do the players I mentioned do it themselves or what? Because they don't play with players like Austin Watson.

Let me put a hypothetical question to you. We're playing the Leafs and Wayne Simmonds has a chance to take out Tim Stuetzle. Do you think that he decides not to because Josh Brown or Austin Watson is on the ice? Honest answer.

Conversely do you think that Josh Brown will decide to not be tough on Mitch Marner (given the chance) just because Wayne Simmonds happens to be on the ice? If the answer to this question is yes then Josh Brown needs to start working on his resume. It's players like that job to get physical with players on the other team. It's an important role on the team that they're paid to fill. If they don't do it because a player like Austin Watson is out there the team WILL replace them.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I remember watching the Oilers teams that would score goals against opponents who took bad penalties by trying to run the Oilers out of the building by playing physically. One of the deterrents against taking liberties against the Oilers skilled players was the fear of the goals being scored against them. But the Oilers had other deterrents as well, named Messier and Semenko.

I watched those games too. But that was close to 40 years ago. The NHL now has an instigator rule, less goons and puts more of a premium on having all four lines be good at hockey.

And Semenko wasn't always on the ice with Gretz. In fact he only occasionally was with him. SO the argument (that started all this) that Stuetzle should be stapled to players like Watson or J.Brown is not really a good comparable.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Those guys you listed are crazy skilled players and play by the motto don't want none don't start none.
The sens will not be playing like a team full of super stars they will be asked to play smash mouth all game long, they brought in these guys to show them how it's done and to be around when the other teams want to hold someone accountable
You can't get a bunch of kids to be big bullies if everyone kicks their ass and sends them packing. It's not about fighting or playing dirtty its about playing so hard the other team would rather make money against everyone or anyone else.

This has nothing to do with anyone being a deterrent or Watson being Stuetzle's primary linemates. Watson, Brown and Gudbranson and other physical players have a role but it doesn't mean that they have to be on the ice with Tim Stuetzle regularly.

And BTW... Stuetzle IS a crazy skilled player and he's coming onto a team that is similar in skill level to the one Toews and Kane joined. The Hawks didn't feel the need to play those guys with tough guys all the time. They played with good players and, lo and behold, they did fine and the rest is history.

 

[Leafmealone11]

But do the players I mentioned do it themselves or what? Because they don't play with players like Austin Watson.

Let me put a hypothetical question to you. We're playing the Leafs and Wayne Simmonds has a chance to take out Tim Stuetzle. Do you think that he decides not to because Josh Brown or Austin Watson is on the ice? Honest answer.

Conversely do you think that Josh Brown will decide to not be tough on Mitch Marner (given the chance) just because Wayne Simmonds happens to be on the ice? If the answer to this question is yes then Josh Brown needs to start working on his resume. It's players like that job to get physical with players on the other team. It's an important role on the team that they're paid to fill. If they don't do it because a player like Austin Watson is out there the team WILL replace them.

If Batherson and Norris follow Brady and smash everything that moves Simmonds very well could skate over smack them around give them a beating and make sure they never do it again. Or at least threaten to beat them they do it one more time. These things could stop that in its tracks.
With the other guys on the team simmonds will be dealt with or smashed into the boards by guys he can not intimidate and he will either be forced to fight a monster or shut up..

 

[OD99]

If Batherson and Norris follow Brady and smash everything that moves Simmonds very well could skate over smack them around give them a beating and make sure they never do it again. Or at least threaten to beat them they do it one more time. These things could stop that in its tracks.
With the other guys on the team simmonds will be dealt with or smashed into the boards by guys he can not intimidate and he will either be forced to fight a monster or shut up..

I think this is pure hyperbole.

I agree that size and toughness is a part of hockey but these guys will have faced far more intimidation at lower levels than they would in the NHL plus almost everyone knows how to defend themselves now.

Someone drops the gloves and you grab hold and pull yourself tight until the linesmen (who are now trained to jump in early) come and break it up.

Nobody is out playing scared and afraid to hit somebody based on who else is on the ice - players are either physical or they aren't and they will play the way they play regardless.

 

[Leafmealone11]

I think this is pure hyperbole.

I agree that size and toughness is a part of hockey but these guys will have faced far more intimidation at lower levels than they would in the NHL plus almost everyone knows how to defend themselves now.

Someone drops the gloves and you grab hold and pull yourself tight until the linesmen (who are now trained to jump in early) come and break it up.

Nobody is out playing scared and afraid to hit somebody based on who else is on the ice - players are either physical or they aren't and they will play the way they play regardless.

I disagree watch toronto this year the first few times Mathews and Marner are picked on or hit too hard fists will fly. And yes people know what happens if they mess around against the wrong players don’t kid yourself.

 

[OD99]

I disagree watch toronto this year the first few times Mathews and Marner are picked on or hit too hard fists will fly. And yes people know what happens if they mess around against the wrong players don’t kid yourself.

But this has nothing to do with what you said before. Of course tougher players who fill a tough guy role should step in if star players are being manhandled (don't think I can use the term, "picked on" for grown men who are professional athletes though).

You are suggesting just the opposite - that our good players won't play an aggressive game for fear of retribution - and I think that is way overblown. Players play how they want, the days of the Philly flu are over because there is essentially no fighting in the league anymore and guys are just getting randomly jumped and pummeled, it never happens.

They have all been targets for years because they have been the best players on their team so I have no worries the guys know how to keep their heads up and not put themselves in to vulnerable positions.

 

[Leafmealone11]

But this has nothing to do with what you said before. Of course tougher players who fill a tough guy role should step in if star players are being manhandled (don't think I can use the term, "picked on" for grown men who are professional athletes though).

You are suggesting just the opposite - that our good players won't play an aggressive game for fear of retribution - and I think that is way overblown. Players play how they want, the days of the Philly flu are over because there is essentially no fighting in the league anymore and guys are just getting randomly jumped and pummeled, it never happens.

They have all been targets for years because they have been the best players on their team so I have no worries the guys know how to keep their heads up and not put themselves in to vulnerable positions.

I’m saying young kids will get shown their place without big brother types around to let them grown into being on their own.
You can’t scare the young kid If his big brother will whoop you on the spot. It’s the way of the human race.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I’m saying young kids will get shown their place without big brother types around to let them grown into being on their own.
You can’t scare the young kid If his big brother will whoop you on the spot. It’s the way of the human race.

But I'll ask again. Is Wayne Simmonds or Tom Wilson or Ryan Reaves or Pat Maroon going to decide not to pick on Tim Stuetzle because the likes of Gudbranson, J.Brown and Watson are on the ice or on the bench? You can answer the question however you want but from everything I've seen these players will play the way they've always played.

If physical players were so easily deterred there would be no place for them in the league. The fact is that there is still a place for tough players who will make things rough on the opposing team. It's precisely because they WON'T be deterred that they're still a significant part of the NHL.

 

[OD99]

I agree having some big bodies around who play physical is good to have.

Can't buy in to the fact we need them or else we get scared to play.

Happy to agree to disagree.