News Article: Chris Ilitch noncommittal on Holland’s return

[Pavels Dog]

Right. So in 2011 or 2012, you wouldn't have traded Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Kronwall.

But you still had to have the ****ing common sense to know that you need to introduce CHEAP YOUTH to the lineup if you want have enough cap space to add the kind of piece Datsyuk or Zetterberg and Kronwall needed to get back to contender status.

Keep in mind 2011 or 2012 was shortly after back-to-back SCFs. How much cap space do you see Chicago with?

Nevertheless, we made a big play for Suter/Parise. Cap space wasn't the determining factor, but some will never buy it because it breaks their argument that Cleary, Samuelsson and Bertuzzi were the cause of everything that went wrong.

That sounds like a lack of changes than anything. Which is better than going 100% all-in, but there certainly is plenty of wiggle-room to say "this isn't enough and continues the trend of mediocrity". If anything the activity at the deadline shouldn't have decreased, and he should have been more focused on acquiring more futures instead of "not trading them away as often."


The team hasn't been #1 since 2008. That's a long time to "not fall down in the standings".

And I think if the team's best is 3rd in the division and you don't really know how you are going to get better without drafting high, then you need to take a hard look at the team and make a hard choice.

I'll just leave it at this: when a GM makes the kind of decision you're talking about, I'll concede that it's possible. Until then, what you're looking for is something that simply does not happen. Essentially what you're saying is that NOW is the time for Washington to start selling. Pittsburgh should be selling very soon, maybe next year. LA definitely should start rebuilding shortly. Anaheim? Yeah probably. Getzlaf and Perry are 32, pretty comparable to Wings ~5 years ago.
Let's see if any of these teams start selling while still being in a playoff position.

they tried to make a big win now move for bouwmeester in 2013.

We don't know exactly what they tried and criticiszing Holland for rumors about things that never materialized is kinda silly.

 

[kliq]

They started the season as having the most expensive roster in the league.

You think Detroit won't be a cap team again by July?

Do you think they will still be the oldest team in July? Will they be a cap team in July? This is a discussion that could be had if you want to have it, but is irrelevant to the present.

Your comment was based on present. Like I said before, you are playing "cynical Wings fan" and to do that you need to be over the top. But I'll call you out on it when you do.

 

[Redder Winger]

Keep in mind 2011 or 2012 was shortly after back-to-back SCFs. How much cap space do you see Chicago with?

Nevertheless, we made a big play for Suter/Parise. Cap space wasn't the determining factor, but some will never buy it because it breaks their argument that Cleary, Samuelsson and Bertuzzi were the cause of everything that went wrong.


I'll just leave it at this: when a GM makes the kind of decision you're talking about, I'll concede that it's possible. Until then, what you're looking for is something that simply does not happen. Essentially what you're saying is that NOW is the time for Washington to start selling. Pittsburgh should be selling very soon, maybe next year. LA definitely should start rebuilding shortly. Anaheim? Yeah probably. Getzlaf and Perry are 32, pretty comparable to Wings ~5 years ago.
Let's see if any of these teams start selling while still being in a playoff position.


We don't know exactly what they tried and criticiszing Holland for rumors about things that never materialized is kinda silly.

2011 was 2 full seasons after that.

Detroit underbid on Suter by $17million and was even further off on Parise.

You want to pretend that $3M for Samuelsson or $2.8M for Cleary weren't a factor, fine.

Then you're making the argument that Holland simply doesn't understand where to invest limited resources.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Do you think they will still be the oldest team in July? Will they be a cap team in July? This is a discussion that could be had if you want to have it, but is irrelevant to the present.

Your comment was based on present. Like I said before, you are playing "cynical Wings fan" and to do that you need to be over the top. But I'll call you out on it when you do.

I'm not being cynical. I just know this organization is incompetent.

How people still don't realize that is not my problem.

 

[kliq]

I'm not being cynical. I just know this organization is incompetent.

How people still don't realize that is not my problem.

If you want to go with that, go with that. If you don’t want to be called out, say factual things.

 

[InjuredChoker]

We don't know exactly what they tried and criticiszing Holland for rumors about things that never materialized is kinda silly.

we don't know exactly what they tried but it involved trading tatar and nyquist and was definitely a win-now move. came from bobby mac too so it's not like the source on the rumor sucks. the reason they didn't make big win-now moves (if we don't count the legwand trade) after 2012 wasn't because they fundamentally changed their philosophy/direction when it came to roster building, it was because they got outbid. which also did happen when lidström was still playing.


2016 offseason. zetterberg and kronwall have clearly declined. best player goes to russia. no top pairing dman on the roster. sign/extend frans nielsen and darren helm. doesn't seem like a team that is willing/preparing for rebuild.

I'll just leave it at this: when a GM makes the kind of decision you're talking about, I'll concede that it's possible. Until then, what you're looking for is something that simply does not happen. Essentially what you're saying is that NOW is the time for Washington to start selling. Pittsburgh should be selling very soon, maybe next year. LA definitely should start rebuilding shortly. Anaheim? Yeah probably. Getzlaf and Perry are 32, pretty comparable to Wings ~5 years ago.

washington is getting kinda close but they are still about as good regular season team as we were under lidström. leonsis doesn't really care that much about winning the SC though so they are going to tread there as long as they can.

pens still have their core in place from their cup teams and performing very well. zero need to even think about rebuilding.

LA is getting close. depends on doughty. if they can keep him, they probably won't be rebuilding for a while but winning with that core again is going to be very hard.

ducks close to us 5 years ago? who were our rakell, lindholm and manson?

 

[Syckle78]

If only we still had Calle Jarnkrok. The rebuild would already be over...

Meanwhile Washington throws away Filip Forsberg, Calgary has no 1st and they’re in the lottery, Ottawa is gonna suck next year with no lottery protection on their 1st, Boston had 3 1st rounders and passed 3 times on Barzal who is a PPG player, Montreal moved Sergachev for an okay winger, Edmonton moved a superstar for an okay d-man, etc etc etc.

God damn sometimes I wish we get a new GM and he actually makes some REAL mistakes so this fanbase can experience what it feels like.

Hilarious. Other gms made bad trades so high impact trades are bad. Why did you mention any good high impact trades? Ya,know, like the other side of the ones you listed.

 

[Syckle78]

Are we seriously talking about Jarnkrok again. We need to move on, since I joined this board in December this has come up in at least 3 maybe 4 or 5 threads.

Dude people stil bring up hossa vs. Franzen. Jarnkrok is still recent history in hf years.

 

[Syckle78]

Keep in mind 2011 or 2012 was shortly after back-to-back SCFs. How much cap space do you see Chicago with?

Nevertheless, we made a big play for Suter/Parise. Cap space wasn't the determining factor, but some will never buy it because it breaks their argument that Cleary, Samuelsson and Bertuzzi were the cause of everything that went wrong.


I'll just leave it at this: when a GM makes the kind of decision you're talking about, I'll concede that it's possible. Until then, what you're looking for is something that simply does not happen. Essentially what you're saying is that NOW is the time for Washington to start selling. Pittsburgh should be selling very soon, maybe next year. LA definitely should start rebuilding shortly. Anaheim? Yeah probably. Getzlaf and Perry are 32, pretty comparable to Wings ~5 years ago.
Let's see if any of these teams start selling while still being in a playoff position.


We don't know exactly what they tried and criticiszing Holland for rumors about things that never materialized is kinda silly.

The rangers literally did it this year. Lol They seen that the group wasn't working and traded what they could including they're prime number one defenseman.

 

[Frk It]

Hilarious. Other gms made bad trades so high impact trades are bad. Why did you mention any good high impact trades? Ya,know, like the other side of the ones you listed.

Nah, can’t mention how Calgary also acquired Hamilton via trade who’s a stud.

 

[Red Stanley]

The rangers literally did it this year. Lol They seen that the group wasn't working and traded what they could including they're prime number one defenseman.

The Rangers had been trending down for a while when they decided to sell. It was pretty clear they weren't making it regardless. That's kind of like us last year, not the years prior to that. Good on them for pulling the trigger asap, though. Still, they're a long way from rebuilding in the sense that people around here talk about all the time.

P.S. I'd say the Blues trading Stastny was a better example than what the Rangers did.

 

[kliq]

Dude people stil bring up hossa vs. Franzen. Jarnkrok is still recent history in hf years.

lol you're right. At least Hossa is a stud, we're talking a top 9 guy here.

 

[TheMule93]

The Rangers had been trending down for a while when they decided to sell.

We were on the downtrend since 2012 and didnt sell until 2017.

It was pretty clear they weren't making it regardless. That's kind of like us last year, not the years prior to that. Good on them for pulling the trigger asap, though. Still, they're a long way from rebuilding in the sense that people around here talk about all the time.

They were in the playoffs halfway through the season, until roughly about 45 games in. They could have made it. Last year they had a 102 pt season, we had a few of those in lidstroms final years.

 

[Red Stanley]

We were on the downtrend since 2012 and didnt sell until 2017.



They were in the playoffs halfway through the season, until roughly about 45 games in. They could have made it. Last year they had a 102 pt season, we had a few of those in lidstroms final years.

The Rangers were in free fall mode Chicago style. They weren't making it. Until last year we were never in that situation and made it every single year. Not the same thing. The Blues on the other hand are still right in it despite offloading Stastny and they're competing in a more difficult division/conference.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

lol you're right. At least Hossa is a stud, we're talking a top 9 guy here.

How much of a stud can you be if your immune system can't even handle shoulder pads?

 

[Pavels Dog]

ducks close to us 5 years ago? who were our rakell, lindholm and manson?

Nyquist, Tatar, Dekeyser. Mrazek.

Lindholm was #6 so they’ve already been in the gutter recently which impacts things though.

Hilarious. Other gms made bad trades so high impact trades are bad. Why did you mention any good high impact trades? Ya,know, like the other side of the ones you listed.

The point wasn’t about trades it was about mistakes. If you want to get into how Holland hasn’t had any big ”successes” in a while, go for it. But don’t talk about Jarnkrok as if we gave up Filip Forsberg for Erat.

The rangers literally did it this year. Lol They seen that the group wasn't working and traded what they could including they're prime number one defenseman.

They were not in a playoff spot and they were dropping like a brick in the standings. That’s the major difference, but being built mostly on trades and FA signings also leads to an easier time cutting the cord, for better or worse. If they had traded Lundy I would have been impressed. As it stands, they got a mediocre return on McDonagh and could draft outside the top 10.

Nah, can’t mention how Calgary also acquired Hamilton via trade who’s a stud.

So much a stud that they have won exactly zero playoff games since that trade. I’m sure they wouldn’t have been better off with Barzal/Connor/Chabot and their 1st round pick this year. Quick fix trades may look good once in a bluemoon, but as a strategy it’s not great longterm.

 

[HIFE]

The Rangers had been trending down for a while when they decided to sell. It was pretty clear they weren't making it regardless. That's kind of like us last year, not the years prior to that. Good on them for pulling the trigger asap, though. Still, they're a long way from rebuilding in the sense that people around here talk about all the time.

P.S. I'd say the Blues trading Stastny was a better example than what the Rangers did.

I'm stunned you believe that. Nearly swept by Boston in 2014, even a casual fan like myself knew the party was over. Rangers are doing what we should have done then- getting returns before their best players lose all value. They've basically tried to save themselves from 4 years of letting nature crumble your entertainment value to dust like the Wings.

I laugh when people say the rebuild began last season. No, the sucking did. It's comical the pat on the back Holland gets because for once we had all our draft picks. We traded meaningless players- Ott, Vanek, Jurco, and Smith ( a terrible mistake on NY's part). The Wings' excuse for the season was goaltending and the PP. Then Holland goes after the best defenseman he can with his last pennies, talking numerous times about the playoffs. Most GM's might say the the word as a goal but they don't speak on and on about it.

The rebuild began this season, 2017-18. Why? Because we sold an authentic roster player for futures- Tatar. It's the first admittance of failure and bold move to build for the future. Unfortunately like a lot of the Wings games it's too little, too late.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I've been a poster on this forum for nearly 11 years. Holland has done a lot of crummy stuff the last half a decade, or in many cases, hasn't done really much of anything in that span. We still talk about Hossa vs Franzen, we still talk about the crippling contracts, the futile deadline trades, and the questionable drafting. It's all true, and relevant. But what I'm going to say next is basically the reality of it all. None of it matters. None of it matters anymore. There were plenty of costly mistakes from varying degrees since we went to the finals in 2009, but that was nine years ago, and it doesn't matter now. We've been on a gradual descent ever since those finals and we've either hit the bottom, or we are another season or two away from hitting it.

The last remnant of this 25 year dynasty is nearly 38 years old, nearly 50 points away from 1000 points, and is on his final legs.

Management has finally acknowledged the inevitable, and while it's been frustrating to watch this team for some time, they are no longer in denial. What we do going forward is all that matters at this point, because the past is the past. There's merit in still criticizing the Datsyuk contract trade or drafting Rasmussen last summer, I still feel that sense of frustration as well, but it's because we're all so invested in the team, but spinning around the drain with decade old, tired arguments, at this point, none of it matters. It's all what ifs and what could have beens, and frankly, it's all irrelevant. We have two super great hockey players in Dylan Larkin and Anthony Mantha to start laying a foundation around, and it's going to take 2-5 solid drafts to build something around them, because the way I see it, Larkin is the next captain of this team. Zetterberg's pending retirement in the next couple of seasons is really symbolic of this all ending. This era of absolute dominance to meandering mediocrity, and with it, we have a new arena, a new owner (RIP Mr. I), and soon to be new coaches, and most importantly, a new General Manager. So as far as I see it, let's just look ahead.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'm stunned you believe that. Nearly swept by Boston in 2014, even a casual fan like myself knew the party was over.

Shame you skipped 14-15 because we were a very good team that year and a ton of fun to watch.

 

[Claypool]

I'm stunned you believe that. Nearly swept by Boston in 2014, even a casual fan like myself knew the party was over. Rangers are doing what we should have done then- getting returns before their best players lose all value. They've basically tried to save themselves from 4 years of letting nature crumble your entertainment value to dust like the Wings.

I laugh when people say the rebuild began last season. No, the sucking did. It's comical the pat on the back Holland gets because for once we had all our draft picks. We traded meaningless players- Ott, Vanek, Jurco, and Smith ( a terrible mistake on NY's part). The Wings' excuse for the season was goaltending and the PP. Then Holland goes after the best defenseman he can with his last pennies, talking numerous times about the playoffs. Most GM's might say the the word as a goal but they don't speak on and on about it.

The rebuild began this season, 2017-18. Why? Because we sold an authentic roster player for futures- Tatar. It's the first admittance of failure and bold move to build for the future. Unfortunately like a lot of the Wings games it's too little, too late.

Cool, no one cares. Enjoy the next five seasons of losing, worthless hockey. Hope you find some entertainment value in it.

 

[Red Stanley]

I'm stunned you believe that. Nearly swept by Boston in 2014, even a casual fan like myself knew the party was over. Rangers are doing what we should have done then- getting returns before their best players lose all value. They've basically tried to save themselves from 4 years of letting nature crumble your entertainment value to dust like the Wings.

I laugh when people say the rebuild began last season. No, the sucking did. It's comical the pat on the back Holland gets because for once we had all our draft picks. We traded meaningless players- Ott, Vanek, Jurco, and Smith ( a terrible mistake on NY's part). The Wings' excuse for the season was goaltending and the PP. Then Holland goes after the best defenseman he can with his last pennies, talking numerous times about the playoffs. Most GM's might say the the word as a goal but they don't speak on and on about it.

The rebuild began this season, 2017-18. Why? Because we sold an authentic roster player for futures- Tatar. It's the first admittance of failure and bold move to build for the future. Unfortunately like a lot of the Wings games it's too little, too late.

Well, whether I believe it or not, it's what happened. I was commenting on the claim that playoff teams don't force rebuilds. The Rangers were supposed to compete for a spot, gave up midway through the season and sold at the TDL. Last year we were supposed to compete for a spot, looked to be in terrible shape by the TDL and sold. It's a valid comparison in that regard imo. That was their third year of a steady decline that finally saw them fail in their goal to reach the post season. I don't know what goes on in their locker room or during front office meetings, but there's no doubt in my mind had they been in better shape going into the TDL that they would've been buyers instead.

 

[Winger98]

So much a stud that they have won exactly zero playoff games since that trade. I’m sure they wouldn’t have been better off with Barzal/Connor/Chabot and their 1st round pick this year. Quick fix trades may look good once in a bluemoon, but as a strategy it’s not great longterm.

I don't think you're insinuating it, but dealing a 1st and two 2nds for a 21/22 yr old D like Dougie Hamilton- who has since put up 40+ points in the three seasons since the trade - is not a quick fix. That's a guy you're building around for the next 10+ years, the sort of guy we hope to draft. Honestly, if we knew we weren't getting Dahlin, I'd be entirely okay making that deal this year if we could pull in that sort of player.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I'll just leave it at this: when a GM makes the kind of decision you're talking about, I'll concede that it's possible. Until then, what you're looking for is something that simply does not happen. Essentially what you're saying is that NOW is the time for Washington to start selling. Pittsburgh should be selling very soon, maybe next year. LA definitely should start rebuilding shortly. Anaheim? Yeah probably. Getzlaf and Perry are 32, pretty comparable to Wings ~5 years ago.
Let's see if any of these teams start selling while still being in a playoff position.

What kind of decision do you think I'm talking about, because it looks like you are going back to the "I am going to argue against a hyperbolic form of your position", which like I have already told you is incredibly disingenuous. Not all teams are created equal. Not all teams are in the same boat. Ovechkin is a threat to score 50 goals and 90 points. Pittsburgh isn't even a calendar year removed from back to back Cups. Los Angeles? Maybe. Anaheim? Maybe. We are talking about the Red Wings, here, and they are not in identical situations to these teams.

Then again what you don't address is the fact there are a ton of options to facilitate a "rebuild", and I am not advocating for all these teams to sell EVERYTHING and go for the tank. I was never a tank advocate post-2009 and wanted Holland to make moves to help ease the transition for Lidstrom retiring. Over time my opinion has been more drastic because the moves Holland has made up to this point have led to a need for more drastic measures.

Shame you skipped 14-15 because we were a very good team that year and a ton of fun to watch.

Sure, they weren't terrible, but did you think that was a contending team? Do you think the core that Holland assembled was on its way up?

The writing has been on the wall for awhile. The team having entertaining seasons here and there does not a Stanley Cup contender make.

 

[jkutswings]

I've been a poster on this forum for nearly 11 years. Holland has done a lot of crummy stuff the last half a decade, or in many cases, hasn't done really much of anything in that span. We still talk about Hossa vs Franzen, we still talk about the crippling contracts, the futile deadline trades, and the questionable drafting. It's all true, and relevant. But what I'm going to say next is basically the reality of it all. None of it matters. None of it matters anymore. There were plenty of costly mistakes from varying degrees since we went to the finals in 2009, but that was nine years ago, and it doesn't matter now. We've been on a gradual descent ever since those finals and we've either hit the bottom, or we are another season or two away from hitting it.

The last remnant of this 25 year dynasty is nearly 38 years old, nearly 50 points away from 1000 points, and is on his final legs.

Management has finally acknowledged the inevitable, and while it's been frustrating to watch this team for some time, they are no longer in denial. What we do going forward is all that matters at this point, because the past is the past. There's merit in still criticizing the Datsyuk contract trade or drafting Rasmussen last summer, I still feel that sense of frustration as well, but it's because we're all so invested in the team, but spinning around the drain with decade old, tired arguments, at this point, none of it matters. It's all what ifs and what could have beens, and frankly, it's all irrelevant. We have two super great hockey players in Dylan Larkin and Anthony Mantha to start laying a foundation around, and it's going to take 2-5 solid drafts to build something around them, because the way I see it, Larkin is the next captain of this team. Zetterberg's pending retirement in the next couple of seasons is really symbolic of this all ending. This era of absolute dominance to meandering mediocrity, and with it, we have a new arena, a new owner (RIP Mr. I), and soon to be new coaches, and most importantly, a new General Manager. So as far as I see it, let's just look ahead.

All very logical. But I reiterate, I'm one of the fans who still bring up the past for one simple reason:

I believe very strongly that the current regime is not the right collection of people to successfully move forward with.

If this April, the Wings clean house, and grab some great hockey minds to make a fresh start, I'll be content to completely leave the past behind. But if it's another internal move - or Holland gets an extension - it's going to take a lot to convince me that he and his staff won't continue to make some of the same very frustrating mistakes.

 

[kliq]

All very logical. But I reiterate, I'm one of the fans who still bring up the past for one simple reason:

I believe very strongly that the current regime is not the right collection of people to successfully move forward with.

If this April, the Wings clean house, and grab some great hockey minds to make a fresh start, I'll be content to completely leave the past behind. But if it's another internal move - or Holland gets an extension - it's going to take a lot to convince me that he and his staff won't continue to make some of the same very frustrating mistakes.

There is a chance that Holland steps down or that Illitch wants a fresh face as GM, but I would say that the chances are very very very slim that they "clean house". If that is your expectation, you are likely setting yourself up for disappointment. I fully expect Holland or Draper to be GM next year.