News Article: Chris Ilitch noncommittal on Holland’s return

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Pretty sure people would be even more upset if he had moved Larkin or Mantha for Phanuef like many around here wanted him to do.

But these are the same people that complain Holland doesn't make enough trades. So which is it? You only want Holland to make trades that only favor the Red Wings? Got it.

The Legward trade is hardly a bump in the road for this organization moving foward. They traded future depth for current depth. I'm not sure why people continue care about any of these trades.

Was Larkin for Phaneuf what people wanted?

What a lie that is

 

[Redder Winger]

The irony here is painful. You complain about trading for low impact mediocre players without acknowledging they only gave up low impact mediocre players.

Low-impact, young, cheap players.
Plus, we don't know what the first or second rounders would have netted.

 

[Redder Winger]

If only we still had Calle Jarnkrok. The rebuild would already be over...

Meanwhile Washington throws away Filip Forsberg, Calgary has no 1st and they’re in the lottery, Ottawa is gonna suck next year with no lottery protection on their 1st, Boston had 3 1st rounders and passed 3 times on Barzal who is a PPG player, Montreal moved Sergachev for an okay winger, Edmonton moved a superstar for an okay d-man, etc etc etc.

God damn sometimes I wish we get a new GM and he actually makes some REAL mistakes so this fanbase can experience what it feels like.

Yeah, what if we had Kuznetsov instead of Sheahan and had Jarnkrok.


How much better do you think our passing is?

What if we draft Mike Matheson or Olli Matta or Brady Skjei instead of trade for KFQ?

 

[BinCookin]

the main point here guys is it looks like Detroit has no facade anymore. they have to tell it like it is.

We have been rebuilding for 2 years now. (Selling players for picks)

As opposed to simply sucking by accident.

We are rebuilding, we all knew that. time to become experts on prospects.

 

[BinCookin]

Yeah, what if we had Kuznetsov instead of Sheahan

Every team can say this.
I find it to be an unfair complaint.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah, what if we had Kuznetsov instead of Sheahan and had Jarnkrok.


How much better do you think our passing is?

What if we draft Mike Matheson or Olli Matta or Brady Skjei instead of trade for KFQ?

What if your aunt had well you know the rest....

That's a lot of what ifs. What if the Cole doesn't have a career ending injury. What if Franzen stays healthy. What if the league doesn't botch a clean hit by Kronwall with a BS suspension.... We win a cup that year. Let's play the what if game because that is how you encapsulate reality....

Listen there are always things that could be done better, we should have drafted Lundqvist in the sixth round before the Rangers, Benn before the Stars...

The trade for Quincey made sense. We paced the league that year in early February until injuries. He gave us security for the impending departure of Stuart. He consolidated the third pairing as strong option for a Stanley Cup contender. I do the Quincey trade 10 out of 10 times given what was happening at the time.

This is what some mean by doing revisionist history so we can pick on things.

Let's play another what if one that virtually 29 other teams showed their hand on. Post the Datsyuk was his idol crap we heard the same on Burmistrov as well. Most still believe Kuznetsov never steps foot in Washington without Ovechkin one of his actual best friends that was in his wedding party before he came over. He also was coaxed out to do that by Ovechkin again years after the draft. Do we think that is Pavel? The quiet guy that dreams of Russia while he sits on the plane or might Ovie who offered him and his wife a place at his house be the better salesman for actually leaving Russia? Hey maybe Kuznetsov shows up and pulls the plug mid-year because he doesn't get the role he wants...

But it is what it is, there are a lot of ifs in life. Unfortunately for our team some of the ifs have not gone their way recently, but it also doesn't mean the other ifs everyone continuously posts are real in Detroit either. Maybe those guys are hot garbage here, maybe they never come at all once we make the pick. We don't know the alternate reality. Unfortunately we know that it didn't work, hopefully we get a few more breaks in the coming years, we had a bunch in the big run. You need some luck to smile on you in this process though and it won't just be the first round guys that bring us back.

 

[Shaman464]

Every team can say this.
I find it to be an unfair complaint.

I actually don't think it is. For a team at that time saying that they would rebuild through finding good players up and down the draft and not needing top picks to replenish the farm, striking out so many time in the lower rounds in recent years is unacceptable.

 

[Redder Winger]

What if your aunt had well you know the rest....

That's a lot of what ifs. What if the Cole doesn't have a career ending injury. What if Franzen stays healthy. What if the league doesn't botch a clean hit by Kronwall with a BS suspension.... We win a cup that year. Let's play the what if game because that is how you encapsulate reality....

Listen there are always things that could be done better, we should have drafted Lundqvist in the sixth round before the Rangers, Benn before the Stars...

The trade for Quincey made sense. We paced the league that year in early February until injuries. He gave us security for the impending departure of Stuart. He consolidated the third pairing as strong option for a Stanley Cup contender. I do the Quincey trade 10 out of 10 times given what was happening at the time.

This is what some mean by doing revisionist history so we can pick on things.

Let's play another what if one that virtually 29 other teams showed their hand on. Post the Datsyuk was his idol crap we heard the same on Burmistrov as well. Most still believe Kuznetsov never steps foot in Washington without Ovechkin one of his actual best friends that was in his wedding party before he came over. He also was coaxed out to do that by Ovechkin again years after the draft. Do we think that is Pavel? The quiet guy that dreams of Russia while he sits on the plane or might Ovie who offered him and his wife a place at his house be the better salesman for actually leaving Russia? Hey maybe Kuznetsov shows up and pulls the plug mid-year because he doesn't get the role he wants...

But it is what it is, there are a lot of ifs in life. Unfortunately for our team some of the ifs have not gone their way recently, but it also doesn't mean the other ifs everyone continuously posts are real in Detroit either. Maybe those guys are hot garbage here, maybe they never come at all once we make the pick. We don't know the alternate reality. Unfortunately we know that it didn't work, hopefully we get a few more breaks in the coming years, we had a bunch in the big run. You need some luck to smile on you in this process though and it won't just be the first round guys that bring us back.

Keep making excuses for poor, half-assed decisions.

Why don't you compare stats of Jarnkrok in Nashville to the stats of Legwand in Detroit?
Or Janmark in Dallas to Cole in Detroit.

You wouldn't dare do that. Because there are no what ifs.
The black and white facts paint these trades for what they are. Half-assed bandaids from a GM who spent 6 years pretending this team was something it was not.

 

[Frk It]

We are sitting on a pile of picks. Probably the first top 5 or 6 pick in 20+ years. We finally have succumbed to re-building being the biggest focus and aren’t talking about making the playoffs.

So not everything sucks. I’d like to draft a few more skilled guys and be more active in the trade market, but we are at least taking steps in the right direction.

 

[kliq]

Are we seriously talking about Jarnkrok again. We need to move on, since I joined this board in December this has come up in at least 3 maybe 4 or 5 threads.

 

[SantosHalper]

"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."

What they did or didn't do in the past, doesn't matter anymore. Look to the future, Red Wings are rebuilding now. McDavid, Matthews etc. they ain't gonna be last generational talents around here. New ones will come at some point and way things are right now, Red Wings are bound to get atleast one them.

Red Wings were successful for long long time and now we have pay the dues. Patience, is the word of the day.

 

[TheMule93]

"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."

What they did or didn't do in the past, doesn't matter anymore. Look to the future, Red Wings are rebuilding now. McDavid, Matthews etc. they ain't gonna be last generational talents around here. New ones will come at some point and way things are right now, Red Wings are bound to get atleast one them.

Red Wings were successful for long long time and now we have pay the dues. Patience, is the word of the day.

Thank you for your words of wisdom, Santos.

 

[avssuc]

Are we seriously talking about Jarnkrok again. Seriously, we need to move on from that. Since I joined this board in December this has come up in at least 3 maybe 4 or 5 threads.

It keeps coming up because those that supported it when it went down still don't see why it was bad move. When the team obviously needed to build for the future, it did the opposite.

Dude is better that Nielsen and Helm, makes far less, and probably has more good years left than those two combined. He would have made the tank less painful, and probably returned some good futures at the TDL. The Wings can't even give the other two away. It's pretty easy to be upset about shipping him away (with Patrick Eaves and a 2nd rd pick) for absolute trash. It's great that Holland is finally ready to give in to reality, but it doesn't change the past.

 

[Claypool]

It keeps coming up because those that supported it when it went down still don't see why it was bad move. When the team obviously needed to build for the future, it did the opposite.

Dude is better that Nielsen and Helm, makes far less, and probably has more good years left than those two combined. He would have made the tank less painful, and probably returned some good futures at the TDL. The Wings can't even give the other two away. It's pretty easy to be upset about shipping him away (with Patrick Eaves and a 2nd rd pick) for absolute trash. It's great that Holland is finally ready to give in to reality, but it doesn't change the past.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

 

[HIFE]

It keeps coming up because those that supported it when it went down still don't see why it was bad move. When the team obviously needed to build for the future, it did the opposite.

Dude is better that Nielsen and Helm, makes far less, and probably has more good years left than those two combined. He would have made the tank less painful, and probably returned some good futures at the TDL. The Wings can't even give the other two away. It's pretty easy to be upset about shipping him away (with Patrick Eaves and a 2nd rd pick) for absolute trash. It's great that Holland is finally ready to give in to reality, but it doesn't change the past.

I don't understand why a discussion on a hockey message board, in a thread about Ken Holland, is so personally offensive and difficult to understand. People say they're pleased enough with Holland's work they don't mind him continuing, other fans would like someone else in the position. And here's the shocker, they may try to express their opinion! Why be here if you're miserable and hate to hear other people's opinions?

 

[kliq]

It keeps coming up because those that supported it when it went down still don't see why it was bad move. When the team obviously needed to build for the future, it did the opposite.

Dude is better that Nielsen and Helm, makes far less, and probably has more good years left than those two combined. He would have made the tank less painful, and probably returned some good futures at the TDL. The Wings can't even give the other two away. It's pretty easy to be upset about shipping him away (with Patrick Eaves and a 2nd rd pick) for absolute trash. It's great that Holland is finally ready to give in to reality, but it doesn't change the past.

Who? If you have a quote to share, please do so. You may be right, but I can't recall anyone saying that it was a good move outside of maybe one person. It was an obvious fail, no question. I understand the motivation behind it, but I dont think many people are defending it in 2018. Jarnkrok is a decent top 9 forward, if I could go back in time and somehow veto it, sure I would, but when a minor move like that is discussed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, it just gets tiring.

Let me ask you this? Does the fact that I typed over 11 times cause it to mean more then if I typed it once? If your answer is no which I'm sure it is, I think I just made my point.

Lets move on.

 

[kliq]

I don't understand why a discussion on a hockey message board, in a thread about Ken Holland, is so personally offensive and difficult to understand. People say they're pleased enough with Holland's work they don't mind him continuing, other fans would like someone else in the position. And here's the shocker, they may try to express their opinion! Why be here if you're miserable and hate to hear other people's opinions?

Not personally offensive at all. To say I came across as "miserable" seems like a bit of a stretch. I promise you I am not sitting here screaming at my computer screen.

I like debate, and I like to hear other people's opinion's, not everyone agrees with me on things and that is 100% ok. But when a 3rd liner who was traded 5 years ago is brought up constantly, I just don't see the point. It's like watching the same episode of a TV show 24 times in a row rather then watching an entire season of the same show. Let's branch out.

Lets be forward thinking with our debates, lets offer new perspective, repeating the same rhetoric on both sides is pointless. If you hate Holland, that's cool, again you are entitled to think whatever you want, but can you try to come up with new arguments? I enjoy talking hockey on here, that's why I moved over here from the other place because the other place is dead half the time and people are active here, but when every thread turns into the same thing, its not enjoyable debate. It's lazy.

The irony here, and I really hope you see it because its quite funny is that you are criticizing me for not wanting to hear certain opinions, when in reality you are doing the EXACT SAME thing to me. My opinion on recycled opinions, is guess what.......here's the shocker, an opinion!
See what I did there? I hope it wasn't to difficult to understand.

 

[HIFE]

There's a very long article by HSJ about Detroit rebuilding. It includes more detail than I expected, and some comments that run closer to what several of us have asked for:

What's ahead for Red Wings? NHL GMs say rebuilds need time, luck

Holland:
“It’s about patience. Those teams in the league that are good now, they probably were bad for a period of time. They picked high, they used that bad period of time to acquire an excess of draft picks, and then they did a great job at the draft and they built up a core. Now they’re going to run it for six or seven or eight years and they’re going to see what that foundation can do.”

Holland:
“Finding superstars in the sixth and seventh rounds is not a sustainable model,” Holland said. “We beat the system a little bit by finding Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and they played basically their whole careers together. We found two top-five picks in the sixth and seventh rounds."
“The same franchise can’t keep beating the odds. When you pick late enough long enough, the system probably wins out. We’ve picked late enough long enough. So going forward, we are acquiring draft picks, we are building through the draft.”

HSJ:
"The lower the Wings finish in the standings, the better their draft odds, which have yet to be released. Drafting inside the top three can accelerate a rebuild. The Blackhawks missed the playoffs nine times from 1998-2008, but during that time they drafted Jonathan Toews (third, in 2006) and Patrick Kane (first, in 2007)."

"The Blackhawks won Stanley Cups in 2010, 2013 and 2015. The Pittsburgh Penguins had incredible luck in 2005 when they were awarded the No. 1 pick, which yielded superstar Sidney Crosby. That was a year after they'd used the second overall selection on Evgeni Malkin. The Penguins went on to win Stanley Cups in 2009, 2016 and 2017, and are contenders again this spring."


Holland:
“You need to have three or four super-duper stars that are in the prime of their careers,” Holland said. “I’m talking generational players. Wasn’t Lidstrom a generational player? Wasn’t Yzerman a generational player? Wasn't Fedorov?"

“We had generational players, Hall of Fame superstars. When you look at teams today who you think are Cup contenders, go to the NHL Guide and Record Book and figure out when the makings of those teams began. It takes a number of years. I’m trying to speed the process up between this year and last year by acquiring more draft picks. Now, the process only gets sped up if we do a great job at the draft."

“The goal is to contend for a Stanley Cup. The reality is, you look at the teams that are Cup contenders — Tampa, Pittsburgh — they’re not teams built on 21-year-olds. They’re teams built on 25-year-olds and older, 28-year olds, 30-year-olds. We’re going to continue to draft and the team has to be built — the engine, the foundation — for the most part has to be built through the draft. That’s how the Detroit Red Wings were built in the 1990s and 2000s."

That article was brutal. HSJ has been attempting to be edgier the last year but the way the piece was delivered- the unnecessary drawn out history and "insight" from Nill and Yzerman to divert our attention from Holland (?)- felt like it was penned by the Wings PR team . Helene throws in some random comments like, " The Wings have tipped younger in recent years, and the plan is for that to continue." Um yeah, that's actually not true. "As they embrace young players, there remains an emphasis on the importance of having players such as Zetterberg and Frans Nielsen and Niklas Kronwall on the team, veterans who teach newcomers how to be a good pro." Yeah don't forget Ericsson, Howard, Abdelkader, Daley, Green, Nyquist... can't have enough leadership. Yawn.

Really nothing new from a year ago. I guess the statement they chose as an intro to Hollands comments, about teams being bad to rebuild a core, were a different take than his mantra of hating tear-down rebuilds (oh how painful they are), but I bet soon they'll be replaced by the hope for the playoffs again next year.

His plan for next season is nothing new either:

“Going into next year we are going to try to put two or three more young players onto our team. We want to see what Cholowski can do. We want to see what Hronek can do. We want to see what Rasmussen can do. Joe Hicketts. Dominic Turgeon. It appears we are going to have a first-round pick of some importance.
It’s important that they are in an environment that is as competitive as can be. The goal is to become younger, but better. It has to be about player development and getting young players to Detroit when they are ready to make an impact to push your team forward."

Meaning: the tie goes to the UFA's we pick up this summer. "Try" is the key word to decipher this example of Holland- speak. Younger but better. Rebuild and make the playoffs. He said last April that 2-3 Griffins were ready this season. Frk was already on the team and waived the fall before, he wasn't referring to him. Bertuzzi didn't show up until late December after Glendening was injured, and Svechnikov only because of Nielsen going down. I wouldn't call it alarm, but there is reason to doubt if more than one of those guys are given a real look before next March. I thought Wright said the era of over-ripening picks was dead?

“I love that Wings’ fans are passionate. I can understand they’re frustrated. When you’ve been as good as we’ve been for as long as we’ve been, it’s no fun building. ”

No Kenny, we're not frustrated losing, and building would be fun... if you could see beyond your inflated ego and realize it's time to step aside.

 

[HIFE]

Not personally offensive at all. To say I came across as "miserable" seems like a bit of a stretch. I promise you I am not sitting here screaming at my computer screen.

I like debate, and I like to hear other people's opinion's, not everyone agrees with me on things and that is 100% ok. But when a 3rd liner who was traded 5 years ago is brought up constantly, I just don't see the point. It's like watching the same episode of a TV show 24 times in a row rather then watching an entire season of the same show. Let's branch out.

Lets be forward thinking with our debates, lets offer new perspective, repeating the same rhetoric on both sides is pointless. If you hate Holland, that's cool, again you are entitled to think whatever you want, but can you try to come up with new arguments? I enjoy talking hockey on here, that's why I moved over here from the other place because the other place is dead half the time and people are active here, but when every thread turns into the same thing, its not enjoyable debate. It's lazy.

The irony here, and I really hope you see it because its quite funny is that you are criticizing me for not wanting to hear certain opinions, when in reality you are doing the EXACT SAME thing to me. My opinion on recycled opinions, is guess what.......here's the shocker, an opinion!
See what I did there? I hope it wasn't to difficult to understand.

kliq my post wasn't directed at you. I'd have to look back but I was responding to what I felt in the moment was general attitude of intolerance toward those who want to talk about what they deem to be past mistakes of Holland. Sorry you took it personally.

I agree it's lame to repeat yourself, especially the same argument in threads of different topics. We're here to write and relay our perspective of a team we're interested in, and in what should be a friendly manner. Emotions can get the best of us. When I stared at Wrights draft history yesterday and the glaring "missing" consecutive #2 picks, man my blood boiled. Those picks are like gold. I know it's moronic to keep harping on these points but we all have things that are hard to let go. Also some like myself are usually late waking up to some of the subject-matter that might have been already discussed and thought out previously, that should be considered.

It's actually improved a lot around here since last season IMO.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So because there are also other bad GMs, we should roll over and just be happy?

This organization used to be the benchmark. I don't see any reason why fans shouldn't expect to at least return to Top 10, and vent frustrations if they feel the current regime aren't the right guys to get it there.

There are bad GMs that literally make their teams collapse while they have star players in their prime. And there are ”bad GMs” that can’t draft superstars in the 7th round AGAIN and have some mediocre years while the stars are hitting their mid-to-late 30s until finally falling to the bottom.

Organic decline vs. decline because of bad, stupid decisions. I know which one I feel the Wings have had.

Literally the biggest argument against Holland is that he kept the team too good for too long. And while a few trades of picks or veteran signings was part of it, 90% was simply that Dats and Z are legendary players, Babcock is the best in the business, and we continually inserted solid depth onto the roster (Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Glenny, Mrazek, Larkin etc). Holland didn’t avoid mistakes, but most GMs mess up a lot more and waste seasons of their prime stars outside the playoffs (Isles, Flames, Sens, Hawks, Lightning etc). The season of the Jarnkrok trade, Nyquist carried the team to the playoffs and we drafted Larkin in the 1st round. Yet people hold that up as an example of Holland’s failures. It’s just unbelievably dumb.

 

[kliq]

kliq my post wasn't directed at you. I'd have to look back but I was responding to what I felt in the moment was general attitude of intolerance toward those who want to talk about what they deem to be past mistakes of Holland. Sorry you took it personally.

I agree it's lame to repeat yourself, especially the same argument in threads of different topics. We're here to write and relay our perspective of a team we're interested in, and in what should be a friendly manner. Emotions can get the best of us. When I stared at Wrights draft history yesterday and the glaring "missing" consecutive #2 picks, man my blood boiled. Those picks are like gold. I know it's moronic to keep harping on these points but we all have things that are hard to let go. Also some like myself are usually late waking up to some of the subject-matter that might have been already discussed and thought out previously, that should be considered.

It's actually improved a lot around here since last season IMO.

I'm not going to lie, I thought it was 100% directed at me which confused me because I thought it was an over-reaction to what I posted. My bad, no hard feelings at all. Now I feel like a jerk lol.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Organic decline vs. decline because of bad, stupid decisions. I know which one I feel the Wings have had.

Shirley you can't be serious.

Also what is your definition of "organic"?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

There isn't anything organic about having the oldest and most expensive roster in the league.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Shirley you can't be serious.

Also what is your definition of "organic"?

Players getting old+salary cap. Call it natural decline if you will. Much like what's happening with Chicago. Did that GM completely mess up? Sure the Toews contract is bad, and Panarin trade doesn't look so hot. But more than anything it's just what happens when your top pairing gets old and declines. They're losing Keith and Seabrook like we lost Lidstrom and Rafalski. Only we had Kronwall ready to step up, they have... Forsling? So they're seeing a bit more drastic of a decline.

I just don't buy into the idea that the only way a team can ever have bad years is if the GM is a moron. Players decline, players retire, there's a natural ebb and flow to it. We completely skipped about ~5 years of rebuilding from 02-07 by having a generational D-man that bridged the gap and absolutely insane, out of this world, never gonna happen again drafting.

 

[jkutswings]

Also what is your definition of "organic"?

Horse manure is organic, but it still stinks.

I'm not sure how a GM trying to avoid a rebuild, but failing, is somehow better than a GM deciding it's time to rebuild a few years sooner, and sacrificing a first round exit or two, in exchange for better draft stock (and, in hindsight, better cap flexibility) to jumpstart the rebuilding process.

To each their own, I guess. But there have been zero moments in the last five years of this franchise that I thought were worth the path they chose. They got a stellar 2C in Larkin, and a handful of other maybes, but nothing whatsoever that's noticeably above the quality they SHOULD be picking up from this draft and going forward.

For me, things start getting fun again this June...assuming the real building begins with a good (new) staff.