Recalled/Assigned: Cholowski and McIlrath sent to GR

[Gniwder]

We're all hoping for a trade which means we'll get Lashoff instead.

 

[MBH]

Cholo will soon be 22. When does the development stage for dmen stagnate?

He's playing for a team with very little defensive support/structure.
That can't sustain offensive pressure. That has maybe the worse group of centers in the NHL.
Look, Cholowski is WAY TOO SOFT. He makes Kindl look like Brad Stuart. He gets lost in transition, gets caught turning the wrong way, can't win board battles (and doesn't even seem to try)
But he's youngish. he'd just be finishing his senior year of college, had he stayed on that path. He was always viewed as a bit more of a project.
....
Watching that goal from last night... I get that McIlrath kind of jumped in high but... that goal is on Cholo. And if you watch the entire replay, McIlrath does something I like. While Nielsen, the second man in, follows the play, McIlrath takes the man and makes sure if there's a rebound, he's not going to get it.
Disappointing that McIlrath was sent down.
Detroit Red Wings - Winnipeg Jets - December 10th, 2019

 

[Ricelund]

We're all hoping for a trade which means we'll get Lashoff instead.

Under Holland, yeah.

 

[DInTheB]

Bowey is in CA with the Griffs

 

[DInTheB]

Hmm. I wonder if Seider gets called up to practice with the big club until he goes to the WJC?

 

[Titan6lie]

He's playing for a team with very little defensive support/structure.
That can't sustain offensive pressure. That has maybe the worse group of centers in the NHL.
Look, Cholowski is WAY TOO SOFT. He makes Kindl look like Brad Stuart. He gets lost in transition, gets caught turning the wrong way, can't win board battles (and doesn't even seem to try)
But he's youngish. he'd just be finishing his senior year of college, had he stayed on that path. He was always viewed as a bit more of a project.
....
Watching that goal from last night... I get that McIlrath kind of jumped in high but... that goal is on Cholo. And if you watch the entire replay, McIlrath does something I like. While Nielsen, the second man in, follows the play, McIlrath takes the man and makes sure if there's a rebound, he's not going to get it.
Disappointing that McIlrath was sent down.
Detroit Red Wings - Winnipeg Jets - December 10th, 2019

Watch the play develop....our forwards allow easy exit by the jets...no neutral zone coverage while figure skating....laine takes pass in full stride....leaves defense in tough position. Cholowski blew it, but the breakdown happened earlier in the play.
Todays nhl requires offense from 5 man unit.....but absolutely requires all 5 to play defense.

 

[Go Wings]

I'm fine with Cholo being sent down he has played like crap this season.

I don't think McIlrath should have been sent down though. He is decent defensively and plays physical. He is a perfect bottom pairing defensemen. I would much rather see him playing then Ericsson.

 

[vladdy16]

He's playing for a team with very little defensive support/structure.
That can't sustain offensive pressure. That has maybe the worse group of centers in the NHL.
Look, Cholowski is WAY TOO SOFT. He makes Kindl look like Brad Stuart. He gets lost in transition, gets caught turning the wrong way, can't win board battles (and doesn't even seem to try)
But he's youngish. he'd just be finishing his senior year of college, had he stayed on that path. He was always viewed as a bit more of a project.
....
Watching that goal from last night... I get that McIlrath kind of jumped in high but... that goal is on Cholo. And if you watch the entire replay, McIlrath does something I like. While Nielsen, the second man in, follows the play, McIlrath takes the man and makes sure if there's a rebound, he's not going to get it.
Disappointing that McIlrath was sent down.
Detroit Red Wings - Winnipeg Jets - December 10th, 2019

This is crazy to me. Cholowski has shown great 1 on 1 defense in open ice all along. Here he gets burned by a premier player. Maybe you can tack on a gripe about concentration and situational awareness to the whiff, but whiffs do happen.

The lapse might have been contributed to by McIlrath jumping out of position and getting beat for no reason. Maybe Cholowski doesnt go so hard on the poke check in that case. Regardless it's not a good look for Cholowski, but it does happen.

But crediting McIlrath for putting a forearm on Connor as he skates away to celebrate a breakaway goal is ridiculous. He shouldn't have any trouble picking up the guy he just let past him, and it was a 2 on 3 at that point.

As a Cholowski fan, I really appreciate McIlraths presence these last few weeks. He knows what he does well, and he's consistent with it, which was a huge improvement over Bowey and Biega, and in some cases Green. But this play is more indicative of the struggles McIlrath has and always will have at an NHL level. Honestly Cholowski looks fine on that play, he just f'ed it up by going for the poke check. If Cholowski was caught out of the play as often as McIlrath, we would have serious issues.

Cholowski sucks once the opponent gets set up offensively. He looks lost and stalls out. I can see calling that soft, but I don't think it's really the right term. I see no problem with his board work. If he's actually in the right spot he is more than capable of winning those battles, and usually adds some english to the battle to tee up a transition. And I think his open ice and transition defense is a genuine strength of his.

I think peoples perceptions of Cholowskis defensive acumen will change drastically, once he gets to play regularly with an NHL caliber d-partner, and on a team with centers that are engaged and in position in the defensive zone.

 

[Inspiration]

Cholowski's defense rightfully gets a lot of criticism, but can we have a conversation about his offensive upside? His production at 5v5 has been horrendous since entering the league - in fact, no Red Wing defenseman over the past 10 years averages fewer points per 60 minutes at 5v5 than Cholowski, including all of our favorite "no offense" defensemen, as shown below:

Career 5v5 points/60:

Jonathan Ericsson: 0.62
Alexey Marchenko: 0.58
Kyle Quincey: 0.57
Brian Lashoff: 0.49
Dennis Cholowski: 0.34

For comparison, Filip Hronek is at 1.05 points per 60 at 5v5 for his career on basically the same teams, so the lack of offense can't entirely be blamed on the poor supporting cast. Cholowski's raw point totals look respectable as a result of being gifted a nearly permanent spot on the top power play unit, but what happens if Detroit finds a true power play quarterback to take his minutes? Given that he doesn't appear to offer much offensively or defensively at even strength, it's hard to see where Cholowski fits in if he's not contributing on the power play.

 

[MBH]

This is crazy to me. Cholowski has shown great 1 on 1 defense in open ice all along. Here he gets burned by a premier player. Maybe you can tack on a gripe about concentration and situational awareness to the whiff, but whiffs do happen.

The lapse might have been contributed to by McIlrath jumping out of position and getting beat for no reason. Maybe Cholowski doesnt go so hard on the poke check in that case. Regardless it's not a good look for Cholowski, but it does happen.

Yeah. He just got beat badly. it happens.

But crediting McIlrath for putting a forearm on Connor as he skates away to celebrate a breakaway goal is ridiculous. He shouldn't have any trouble picking up the guy he just let past him, and it was a 2 on 3 at that point.

You know how many times I've seen Detroit give up goals because nobody plays the man on the rebound? It's astonishing.
Goal 1 vs Winnipeg

Just forget the puck. Take away the man. Even in today's NHL, you have to box out and tie up the guy in front of the net.
Nielsen didn't do it, and didn't even look for the second guy in. So yeah, I credit McIlrath for getting into the play and covering the guy that Nielsen could have.

As a Cholowski fan, I really appreciate McIlraths presence these last few weeks. He knows what he does well, and he's consistent with it, which was a huge improvement over Bowey and Biega, and in some cases Green. But this play is more indicative of the struggles McIlrath has and always will have at an NHL level. Honestly Cholowski looks fine on that play, he just f'ed it up by going for the poke check. If Cholowski was caught out of the play as often as McIlrath, we would have serious issues.

Well, Cholo is without a doubt inferior to McIlrath in the defensive zone, despite McIlrath's deficiencies.
And it shows in the goals against average.
I'm not sure how you think Cholo looks OK on that play.

Cholowski sucks once the opponent gets set up offensively. He looks lost and stalls out. I can see calling that soft, but I don't think it's really the right term. I see no problem with his board work. If he's actually in the right spot he is more than capable of winning those battles, and usually adds some english to the battle to tee up a transition. And I think his open ice and transition defense is a genuine strength of his.

I think peoples perceptions of Cholowskis defensive acumen will change drastically, once he gets to play regularly with an NHL caliber d-partner, and on a team with centers that are engaged and in position in the defensive zone.

Well, I agree with that.
But I wouldn't want anyone to think that means I'm shifting the accountability Cholo should own for his weaknesses.
He'll improve.
But I suspect he'll always be soft and lacking in the compete level category.

 

[MBH]

Cholowski's defense rightfully gets a lot of criticism, but can we have a conversation about his offensive upside? His production at 5v5 has been horrendous since entering the league - in fact, no Red Wing defenseman over the past 10 years averages fewer points per 60 minutes at 5v5 than Cholowski, including all of our favorite "no offense" defensemen, as shown below:

Career 5v5 points/60:

Jonathan Ericsson: 0.62
Alexey Marchenko: 0.58
Kyle Quincey: 0.57
Brian Lashoff: 0.49
Dennis Cholowski: 0.34

For comparison, Filip Hronek is at 1.05 points per 60 at 5v5 for his career on basically the same teams, so the lack of offense can't entirely be blamed on the poor supporting cast. Cholowski's raw point totals look respectable as a result of being gifted a nearly permanent spot on the top power play unit, but what happens if Detroit finds a true power play quarterback to take his minutes? Given that he doesn't appear to offer much offensively or defensively at even strength, it's hard to see where Cholowski fits in if he's not contributing on the power play.

Cholo has been a fairly good powerplay player.
Over the last two years on the PP
Goals/60
1. Cholo 1.41
2 Hronek .76
3. Kronwall .46
4. Green 00 (WTF?? 1 PPG in 3 seasons)

Points/60
1. Cholo 3.96
2. Kronwall 3.71
3. Hronek 3.04
3. Green 2.16 (Brutal)

And again. for anyone interested, here's our Defense's GA/60 at 5 on5.
1. McIlrath 2.19
2. Nemth 2.75
3. Biega 2.76
4. Green 2.87
5. Cholo 3.04
6. Daley 3.29
7. Ericsson 3.5
8. Hronek 3.57
9. Dekeyser 3.84
10. Hicketts 3.88
11. Bowey 4.33

To give you an idea, nobody on Ottawa with more than 10 minutes played is over 3.0.

To put McIlrath in perspective, his 2.19 GA would be tops on Ottawa for any defenseman over 100 minutes.
It would look right at home on Boston, between Grzelcyk/Krug and McAvoy.

McIlrath also has the lowest goals for/60 on Detroit at .62.
Zone starts probably have a lot to do with that.
It doesn't help McIlrath or Cholowski that their most common forwards are Perlini, Nielsen and Erne.

 

[vladdy16]

Yeah. He just got beat badly. it happens.



You know how many times I've seen Detroit give up goals because nobody plays the man on the rebound? It's astonishing.
Goal 1 vs Winnipeg

Just forget the puck. Take away the man. Even in today's NHL, you have to box out and tie up the guy in front of the net.
Nielsen didn't do it, and didn't even look for the second guy in. So yeah, I credit McIlrath for getting into the play and covering the guy that Nielsen could have.



Well, Cholo is without a doubt inferior to McIlrath in the defensive zone, despite McIlrath's deficiencies.
And it shows in the goals against average.
I'm not sure how you think Cholo looks OK on that play.



Well, I agree with that.
But I wouldn't want anyone to think that means I'm shifting the accountability Cholo should own for his weaknesses.
He'll improve.
But I suspect he'll always be soft and lacking in the compete level category.

I disagree there is no doubt about their work in the defensive zone. I think McIlrath admittedly/obviously has more tools to successfully abort a possession in the d-zone. But that's not sustainable or something to build off of. It's a big guy with limited skills and nothing to lose, powering the play out of the zone temporarily.

Cholo looks ok to me on that play because his only mistake was the poke check. His gap on Laine was appropriate for the situation, his posture was good, and he has great feet in 1 on 1 situations. He went for the poke check and over corrected and crashed. But otherwise he would've had the opportunity to defuse the play more conservatively.

I just can't get on board with calling one of the youngest players on the team, with one of the most compromised positions on the depth chart, and a head coach that can't multi task a players development, soft or lacking compete level.

That's his m.o. He is a low octane, cerebral, conservative 5th man back team player. Compete level has nothing to do with it imo, And cerebral, conservative team players usually turn into c pluses defensively at a minimum.

If anything, I would add that I think a lot of the inconsistencies and flaws that people are noticing, has a lot to do with a player being asked to abandon his m.o., and the resulting discomfort/lack of confidence that goes along with that.

Cholowski has a ton to learn about when to play it cool and when to turn it up. His instincts are to retreat and figure it out from there, and his body of work in the NHL is him being coached to do the opposite of that and getting caught in between. He still has one more steep learning curve to navigate in that regard. I'm disappointed, considering where we are in the standings, that we haven't taken the opportunity to give the reigns to Cholowski at any point this year, to let him figure out on his own the adjustments he needs to make, to maintain his interest in being the chemistry oriented, responsible, playmaking mama bear that defines his game.

 

[MBH]

I disagree there is no doubt about their work in the defensive zone. I think McIlrath admittedly/obviously has more tools to successfully abort a possession in the d-zone. But that's not sustainable or something to build off of. It's a big guy with limited skills and nothing to lose, powering the play out of the zone temporarily.

Cholo looks ok to me on that play because his only mistake was the poke check. His gap on Laine was appropriate for the situation, his posture was good, and he has great feet in 1 on 1 situations. He went for the poke check and over corrected and crashed. But otherwise he would've had the opportunity to defuse the play more conservatively.

I just can't get on board with calling one of the youngest players on the team, with one of the most compromised positions on the depth chart, and a head coach that can't multi task a players development, soft or lacking compete level.

That's his m.o. He is a low octane, cerebral, conservative 5th man back team player. Compete level has nothing to do with it imo, And cerebral, conservative team players usually turn into c pluses defensively at a minimum.

If anything, I would add that I think a lot of the inconsistencies and flaws that people are noticing, has a lot to do with a player being asked to abandon his m.o., and the resulting discomfort/lack of confidence that goes along with that.

Cholowski has a ton to learn about when to play it cool and when to turn it up. His instincts are to retreat and figure it out from there, and his body of work in the NHL is him being coached to do the opposite of that and getting caught in between. He still has one more steep learning curve to navigate in that regard. I'm disappointed, considering where we are in the standings, that we haven't taken the opportunity to give the reigns to Cholowski at any point this year, to let him figure out on his own the adjustments he needs to make, to maintain his interest in being the chemistry oriented, responsible, playmaking mama bear that defines his game.

Cholo is soft.
It's hard to ignore. 1.85 hits/60 this year. 1.42 over the last two seasons.
He stays away from battles in front of the net or along the boards. He doesn't make life hard on opposing forward.

I'm not really sure what else the Red Wings, as they exist today, can do for Cholowski.
Two straight seasons, after exhibition schedules where I thought he was very weak in the defensive zone, he was given a job on the team.

At the same time, his production at 5 on 5 is brutal. 0.13 points/60.
So I don't know what you mean by "chemistry oriented, responsible, playmaking mama bear" and i have to admit, I've never heard a defenseman described that way.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

Was Ken Holland wrong with his policy, when he wanted to overripen these guys and not put them suffering in NHL, if they aren't ready?

Everything what is happening now, is what Kenny wanted to 100% avoid.

He signed some veterans like Vanek, so the team would play meaningful games. Play close games, so there would be an incentive to play 60minutes, There's some skill to play with. He stated that millions of times.

Now we have a kid team, and are seeing blowouts. Games are over usually before the 3rd period. Guys are losing their will to play game after game, during a game. And people dont like it. Oh, wonder.

We have plenty of Holland’s vets in the lineup night after night. It’s not Yzerman’s fault Nielsen has one point in 30 games.

 

[Gniwder]

We have plenty of Holland’s vets in the lineup night after night. It’s not Yzerman’s fault Nielsen has one point in 30 games.

It's Yzerman's fault that he's played 30 games.

I'd rather just call up a career AHLer at this point and bench Franzero.

 

[vladdy16]

Cholo is soft.
It's hard to ignore. 1.85 hits/60 this year. 1.42 over the last two seasons.
He stays away from battles in front of the net or along the boards. He doesn't make life hard on opposing forward.

I'm not really sure what else the Red Wings, as they exist today, can do for Cholowski.
Two straight seasons, after exhibition schedules where I thought he was very weak in the defensive zone, he was given a job on the team.

At the same time, his production at 5 on 5 is brutal. 0.13 points/60.
So I don't know what you mean by "chemistry oriented, responsible, playmaking mama bear" and i have to admit, I've never heard a defenseman described that way.

Yeah, I find this stance pretty ridiculous in regards to a 21 yo developing defensemen on a team that has 6 or 7 above average players total. Soft is a term that I don't use lightly, especially in the context of todays NHL.

Imo, a soft player is not just someone who is undersized or not physical. A soft player imo, is someone who can't fulfill their responsibilities due to a lack of integrity, bravery, toughness, motivation, maturity etc. Cholowski on the other hand just looks like he doesn't know what to do once the play slows down in his zone.

Chemistry is when two or more players have a familiarity with each other or complimentary play styles that elevates their play and ability above what it would be in a vacuum.

Responsible, is a word you might use to describe a defensemen who takes into account the positioning and abilities of his teammates, and feels a certain accountability for how those pieces shape up defensively.

A playmaker is a player that either excels at increasing the shooting percentage of their linemates, or a player that can approach a situation where a neutral outcome would be acceptable, but they find a way to put their teammate in an advantageous situation anyways. Cholowski has a noticeable knack for creative play.

A mama bear is situationally aware, efficient with energy, and exclusively concerned with the success of her group party.

At lower levels, Cholowski consistently demonstrated these traits. Seeing as he is so young, I expect those traits from his past to be applied more and more, as he gets more familiar with pro hockey, and his teammates. I believe, if you are looking for it, you will see it in his play at the pro level already. Which would explain how he survived this far, even though there is a glaring hole in his game.

It's strange to me, to be arguing from a position that seems to treat the DRW of the last 2 years, and the statistical achievements of whatever players played, as any sort of indication for a long term prognosis.

I guess you could argue hits is a pretty independent stat, you could also argue it's value is ambiguous. But it's not really an independent stat, because good positioning by your teammates is more likely to put you in a good position to land a hit. Points are clearly contextual. Not to mention, this is all data that doesn't even exist for most 21 yo defensemen, because they haven't played a single game yet.

 

[Henkka]

Wasn't Kronwall at some special role now at Griffins?

I hope they start some plan with Cholowski's development there. We need everything Kronner has on his mind transferred on Cholowski's hockey mind.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I'm thinking bowey, cholowski and mclwrath will be happy to be in GR....play on a respected competitive team in the A rather than the laughing stock team of the big league.

And maybe play with the same d partner for more than 2 games in a row....no wonder these young guys have struggled up here!

Depends on what they like more... winning, a steady partner or a fatter wallet.

Cholowski gets over 90% less money playing in the AHL than he does in the NHL and McIlrath drops about 60%.

McIlrath also faces being a healthy scratch at times in the AHL, since he gives GR 7 vets, which is one over the limit of 6... That is unless Yzerman is planning on calling up one of Lashoff, Terry, Elson or Puempel in the near future, or one of them or Ford or Tangradi are or get hurt.

Bowey on the other hand technically makes more since he's on a one way and doesn't have to contribute to Escrow while he's in the minors.

 

[FireBird71]

It's Yzerman's fault that he's played 30 games.

I'd rather just call up a career AHLer at this point and bench Franzero.

They aren’t going to sit him if he’s healthy...be real

 

[ShelbyZ]

Looking at the Red Wings and Griffins schedules, it does seem kind of odd that both were sent down.

You would think with DeKeyser still not practicing and now having a group of 6 "healthy" dmen that includes the practically made of paper mache Green, Daley and Ericsson they'd want a warm body in case somebody tweaks something in the warm up tonight or gets hurt before they go to Montreal on Saturday. Especially when you consider the Griffins are on the other side of the country instead the other side of the state.

The McIlrath demotion is kind of puzzling because it puts GR in a spot where they need to healthy scratch one of either Ford, Tangradi, Elson, Lashoff, Puempel, Terry, or McIlrath himself until one of them gets either hurt or called up to the NHL.

Last we heard AA was out for Tuesday, but "hopeful" for tonight. With Zadina sent down, the team doesn't have an extra forward to play if AA is still out and it isn't like they can dress 11 forwards and 7 D....

If it were for a trade, I feel like it would've been done by now, so that player or players would be available?

My best guess is:

A. They plan on recalling a F and a D from GR that includes at least one of Terry, Puempel and Lashoff, but wanted to see last nights Griffins game before deciding who
B. They also want to clear room for when Howard comes off IR so they can carry 3 goalies until they figure out what to do with Comrie

 

[TCNorthstars]

Looking at the Red Wings and Griffins schedules, it does seem kind of odd that both were sent down.

You would think with DeKeyser still not practicing and now having a group of 6 "healthy" dmen that includes the practically made of paper mache Green, Daley and Ericsson they'd want a warm body in case somebody tweaks something in the warm up tonight or gets hurt before they go to Montreal on Saturday. Especially when you consider the Griffins are on the other side of the country instead the other side of the state.

The McIlrath demotion is kind of puzzling because it puts GR in a spot where they need to healthy scratch one of either Ford, Tangradi, Elson, Lashoff, Puempel, Terry, or McIlrath himself until one of them gets either hurt or called up to the NHL.

Last we heard AA was out for Tuesday, but "hopeful" for tonight. With Zadina sent down, the team doesn't have an extra forward to play if AA is still out and it isn't like they can dress 11 forwards and 7 D....

If it were for a trade, I feel like it would've been done by now, so that player or players would be available?

My best guess is:

A. They plan on recalling a F and a D from GR that includes at least one of Terry, Puempel and Lashoff, but wanted to see last nights Griffins game before deciding who
B. They also want to clear room for when Howard comes off IR so they can carry 3 goalies until they figure out what to do with Comrie

Zadina and McIlrath got called back up today.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Zadina and McIlrath got called back up today.

Just saw that lol. What an odd sequence. The Zadina one makes sense since it looks like Larkin is now out, but what was the point of sending down McIlrath? Punishing him with one day of AHL wages? Accruing an extra $3,763 in cap space in case they need it later in the season?

 

[MBH]

Yeah, I find this stance pretty ridiculous in regards to a 21 yo developing defensemen on a team that has 6 or 7 above average players total. Soft is a term that I don't use lightly, especially in the context of todays NHL.

Imo, a soft player is not just someone who is undersized or not physical. A soft player imo, is someone who can't fulfill their responsibilities due to a lack of integrity, bravery, toughness, motivation, maturity etc. Cholowski on the other hand just looks like he doesn't know what to do once the play slows down in his zone.

Chemistry is when two or more players have a familiarity with each other or complimentary play styles that elevates their play and ability above what it would be in a vacuum.

Responsible, is a word you might use to describe a defensemen who takes into account the positioning and abilities of his teammates, and feels a certain accountability for how those pieces shape up defensively.

A playmaker is a player that either excels at increasing the shooting percentage of their linemates, or a player that can approach a situation where a neutral outcome would be acceptable, but they find a way to put their teammate in an advantageous situation anyways. Cholowski has a noticeable knack for creative play.

A mama bear is situationally aware, efficient with energy, and exclusively concerned with the success of her group party.

At lower levels, Cholowski consistently demonstrated these traits. Seeing as he is so young, I expect those traits from his past to be applied more and more, as he gets more familiar with pro hockey, and his teammates. I believe, if you are looking for it, you will see it in his play at the pro level already. Which would explain how he survived this far, even though there is a glaring hole in his game.

It's strange to me, to be arguing from a position that seems to treat the DRW of the last 2 years, and the statistical achievements of whatever players played, as any sort of indication for a long term prognosis.

I guess you could argue hits is a pretty independent stat, you could also argue it's value is ambiguous. But it's not really an independent stat, because good positioning by your teammates is more likely to put you in a good position to land a hit. Points are clearly contextual. Not to mention, this is all data that doesn't even exist for most 21 yo defensemen, because they haven't played a single game yet.

Comparing a soft, weak defenseman to a momma bear, and you find my view ridiculous? OK.
I'll leave it for you to figure out why Cholo has been demoted two straight years by the park rangers.

 

[GMR]

Bowey is in CA with the Griffs

Why is Veleno playing on the third line? I thought we wanted prospects to get playing time in the minors.

Also, is Tangradi still on the Wings' roster or no? Haven't heard his name in a while.

 

[DInTheB]

Why is Veleno playing on the third line? I thought we wanted prospects to get playing time in the minors.

Also, is Tangradi still on the Wings' roster or no? Haven't heard his name in a while.

Veleno is still figuring out the pro game. I would t worry about him yet.

Tangradi signed a deal with GR late last week. The team needed a spark, and he should do the trick.