Chicago vs Pittsburgh: Which is the greater franchise in this generation?

[nbwingsfan]

PIT had their top guys start earlier. Obviously their window would open earlier.

Open earlier AND last longer... how is this an argument against the Pens...?

 

[Dont Toews Me Bro]

Should be pretty obvious I'm not talking about all time, considering I was responding to a Hawks fan throwing insults at Pens fans for their "pre Crosby" attendance being so low. Clearly the Pens haven't had low attendance forever either.

I'm just going off of what your original post said.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It's easily Pittsburgh for the generation. Chicago has already declined and their run started later. Pens have made the playoffs 12 consecutive seasons with 3 cups, 4 finals, most regular season wins, most playoff wins, and have the personnel to make additional cup runs for the next 3-4 years at least. That's not even mentioning all the individual awards Crosby/Malkin won.

Chicago is only the answer if you consider the generation to be between 2010-15.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

By the way, for those who say that the Hawks did nothing to change the game, you're 100% wrong. The Hawks were the pioneers of "Hockey Moneyball" in that they led the way to winning cups via having a strong understanding of things like puck posession, speed over size, shot suppression and high danger scoring chances. From 2010-2014 they probably had the highest SF/SA ratio in the NHL and that wasn't by accident. They gave more to the game than just having 2/3 of the best forwards in the game. They completely changed the trajectory of the sport. In 2015 the rest of the league started to wise up and their advantage wasn't what it used to be but they won anyway. Even though the Pens are more successful, the Hawks will probably be of more historical significance. They completely changed how the game is played and rosters are constructed. I think the history of hockey will look more fondly upon the Hawks unless Sid and Geno win 2 more cups together before the end of their careers.

In short, the Hawks revolutionized the sport by showing how to win without generational talent. Toews and Kane are great players, but they're not Sid/Geno/Ovi

No. Chicago had a good Corsi% because they were a good team, not the other way around.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

No. Chicago had a good Corsi% because they were a good team, not the other way around.

Do you think the 2011 and 2012 Hawks were good teams? The 2011 team needed a miracle to get in the playoffs and the 2012 team wasn't that good either, but they dominated their opponents in SF/SA. They built a team to play a speed and possession game and showed other teams the way. Nashville's success is a direct copy of the Chicago model.

 

[Nasti]

The Capitals of the past two years were every bit as good on paper as most Cup winners and the Pens had to go through them.

So I'm not buying the no competition angle.

A) they weren't anywhere near as good on paper as the Hawks and Kings. B) Cups aren't won on paper. C) Capitals have a history of underachieving even when they don't play the Penguins.

 

[End of Line]

Pens due to extra finals appearance

But Chicago's cup wins were more dominant.

2015/16 Pens is hard to beat

 

[Pancakes]

A) they weren't anywhere near as good on paper as the Hawks and Kings. B) Cups aren't won on paper. C) Capitals have a history of underachieving even when they don't play the Penguins.

A) Depends which Cup teams we're referring to. It'd be hard to say the 8th seed winning Kings were better on paper than the President's Trophy Caps. B) No, they're not. C) That doesn't make them any less of a difficult opponent to beat. It's also irrelevant unless you think only beating a previous Cup winner matters because I could argue any opponent that hasn't recently won a cup is an underachiever by your standards. San Jose has the same rep. I guess Chicago gets an asterisk in 2010 for sweeping them in the WCF?

 

[Loseipeg]

It's easily Pittsburgh for the generation. Chicago has already declined and their run started later. Pens have made the playoffs 12 consecutive seasons with 3 cups, 4 finals, most regular season wins, most playoff wins, and have the personnel to make additional cup runs for the next 3-4 years at least. That's not even mentioning all the individual awards Crosby/Malkin won.

Chicago is only the answer if you consider the generation to be between 2010-15.

Counting stats are garbage when the east was pretty soft compared to west for mpst of the past ten years.

 

[Loseipeg]

2015/16 Pens is hard to beat

The worst hawks team in 2015 beat tampa in 6 games while the 2016 pens needed a 1 goal win in game 7 WITH stamkos and bishop out.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Hawks won't even sniff a cup without Toews and I say that as a diehard Hawks fan for life. Toews is the heart and soul of the team and was the biggest reason the Hawks won 3 cups. Bringing in the overrated Tavares in his place will do little to offset that gigantic loss.

Nah Toews took a backseat to Kane and Keith who would just put the team on their backs and wouldn't let them down

 

[Voight]

-All I have to say is, the blackhawks future is so dark there isnt 1 ray of light at the end of a very, very, very long and dark tunnel. Have fun in the basement in last place, Hawks, because you are going to be there for a very long time

It kills me when I see people say this.

Little do people know, Toews/Kane are only turning 30 this year. Yes Keith is aging but they will always be a team that can attract top talent so I am not too worried. They should get a solid prospect this year and can retool for another year and be right back into it.

Agreed 100%. The OP asked the question and defined the timeframe as 2005-06 to 2017-2018. People really need to look at the body of work across that 13 season span to get down to debating reality. Otherwise, they're just screwing around by cherry-picking select windows to prop their teams up.

The window is skewed because CHI's franchise pillars didn't arrive until 2007.

Chicago is also literally 10 times bigger than Pittsburgh so they should have more fans, yet they still had blackouts

You can blame Dollar Bill for that.

 

[Styles]

There is only one way to settle this. Crosby, Malkin, and Letang vs Toews, Kane, and Keith in a steel cage match. First team to retrieve the "Team of this generation banner" from atop the cage wins.

 

[End of Line]

The worst hawks team in 2015 beat tampa in 6 games while the 2016 pens needed a 1 goal win in game 7 WITH stamkos and bishop out.

Cool story

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

This debate would be easier to settle if they'd ever played head-to-head for the Cup, which somehow never happened(since the lockout at least). 3 Cups each, Pittsburgh also has the finals loss to Detroit in '08. Also not sure the Hawks' window is closed. Kane and Toews, you would think are older, but they're only 30. Crosby will be 31 by the time next season starts, and Malkin is even older. What Chicago needs to do is rebuild their defense, and hope Crawford stays healthy.

Despite being older Crosby/Malkin are still better than Kane/Toews. What made Chicago special was having Keith/Seabrook/Hossa on top of that, and those guys are either retired or in severe decline. Pittsburgh is in a way better position moving forward.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Cool story

So no actual rebuttal then

 

[End of Line]

So no actual rebuttal then

Why do I need a rebuttal? It's just an opinion, and the internet

 

[daver]

So no actual rebuttal then

Does this count as an actual rebuttal?

Pens outshot TB - 269 to 178 and outshot them by 20 in three games including 39 to 17 in Game 7.

Hawks outshot TB - 168 to 161 and were outshot in three games.

Pens were clearly the more dominant team; a combo of a strong series by Vasilevsky and a below average one by Murray/Fleury kept the series close.

 

[Loseipeg]

Does this count as an actual rebuttal?

Pens outshot TB - 269 to 178 and outshot them by 20 in three games including 39 to 17 in Game 7.

Hawks outshot TB - 168 to 161 and were outshot in three games.

Pens were clearly the more dominant team; a combo of a strong series by Vasilevsky and a below average one by Murray/Fleury kept the series close.

Except for the whole gimpy stralman and no stamkos thing.

 

[BigKing]

OP's question is obviously slanted towards Pittsburgh due to the start of the range.

Chicago has the best peak, however, with 2013-'15. Back-to-Back is impressive, obviously, but Pitt is now at the same 2-in-3 years as that Chicago period with the Hawks only missing out on a 3-peat by losing in the OT of Game 7 of the WCF. Feels like Chicago was feared more league-wide during that stretch than Pittsburgh has been.

It's funny that Pittsburgh didn't do much after the '09 Cup win until the last two seasons, but that doesn't take away from the '09 team while the Hawks and Kings recent struggles somehow makes their respective Cup-winning teams not as good in retrospect.

Its pretty cute.

 

[BigEezyE22]

Except for the whole gimpy stralman and no stamkos thing.

Who?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Pens

Same cups, extra final appearance, more playoff appearances, wins, etc.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

OP's question is obviously slanted towards Pittsburgh due to the start of the range.

Chicago has the best peak, however, with 2013-'15. Back-to-Back is impressive, obviously, but Pitt is now at the same 2-in-3 years as that Chicago period with the Hawks only missing out on a 3-peat by losing in the OT of Game 7 of the WCF. Feels like Chicago was feared more league-wide during that stretch than Pittsburgh has been.

It's funny that Pittsburgh didn't do much after the '09 Cup win until the last two seasons, but that doesn't take away from the '09 team while the Hawks and Kings recent struggles somehow makes their respective Cup-winning teams not as good in retrospect.

Its pretty cute.

The difference between pens 2010-15 and the hawks/kings now is the pens were still a 50 win 100+ point team, they were just falling flat in the playoffs. They've remained an elite team 12 consecutive seasons. Hawks/kings on the other hand have just declined and are bad teams.

 

[GodEmperor]

It's easily Pittsburgh for the generation. Chicago has already declined and their run started later. Pens have made the playoffs 12 consecutive seasons with 3 cups, 4 finals, most regular season wins, most playoff wins, and have the personnel to make additional cup runs for the next 3-4 years at least. That's not even mentioning all the individual awards Crosby/Malkin won.

Chicago is only the answer if you consider the generation to be between 2010-15.

Neutral fan, this is 100% spot on!

 

[Megahab]

OP's question is obviously slanted towards Pittsburgh due to the start of the range.

Yeah but it makes sense to start from 2005-2006. It being right after the lockout and with all the rule changes, that is pretty much the start of the era/generation that we are in.