Chicago vs Pittsburgh: Which is the greater franchise in this generation?

Tweed

Registered User
Jun 25, 2006
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Wow, that must have taken you forever to do all that. Quite the effort. !!

I'm still going with the Hawks.

Not really, to be honest... 1 hour and 40 minutes, judging by my post history. Pretty simple stuff, actually... I used pretty common measuring sticks, with pretty accessible information using basic googling. I mean you could probably distill the stuff down more precisely if you wanted to look at QoC and SoS, Revenue vs Profit, Market Economics, etc... but I don't think it'd change the story much one way or the other. It'd be a laborious exercise for naught.
 

GordieHowsUrBreath

Nostalgia... STOP DWELLING ON THE PAST
Jun 16, 2016
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But... I just provided you facts to work with?

yes you did, I did too

which is why I mentioned the flat earthers, some people have their minds made up and it won't matter how many facts you give them, they won't change their mind

there are people that still think OJ didn't kill anybody, the facts don't matter
 
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MLSE

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Jan 30, 2004
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After Toews/Kane and Crosby/Malkin drafting, I'd say Chicago has done a better job.

Better franchise though, winning is winning and I gotta go with Pittsburgh.
 

nbwingsfan

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Dec 13, 2009
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How is this even an argument?

Pittsburg started their window in 2007 and continued it until (so far) 2018.

Chicago started their window in 2008 and ended it in 2017. (Aka 3 less years of being relevant).

Pittsburgh has back to back cup AND back to back SCF in 08/09 (often forgotten)

Chicago has neither of those things.
 

heysmilinstrange

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Nov 10, 2016
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That's because the games weren't on TV and Dollar Bill Wirtz did everything he could to alienate the fan base in the interest of money.

Excuses, excuses.

EDIT: Actually, sorry, I'm being rude. A Flames fan made the original comment that I was responding to, not a Blackhawks fan. I actually don't have any opinion about the Blackhawks fans turning away from the team during the Dollar Bill era. It happens.
 

nbwingsfan

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Dec 13, 2009
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After their first Cup win in this generation, one team choked away a 3-1 lead in back-to-back seasons and almost got swept in the first round the year after while giving up 20 goals in the first 3 games. And because they didn't get swept then, they got swept the year after ... a series in which that star ensemble managed to score a total of 2 goals. In the following season, they choked away yet another 3-1 lead. And the year after they managed to win one playoff game.

Yeah, winning back-to-back makes Pittsburgh a greater team than Chicago in this era. :laugh:
Those pathetic performances in the 6 years before ... let's just forget about it.

And the Hawks last 3 seasons have been what, exactly?
 

nbwingsfan

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Dec 13, 2009
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Hawks actually built a team. They werent given Crosby just because they were about to lose the team since they had no fan support. Pittsburgh is the defenition of bandwagon

You realize that before Toews/Kane the Hawks had no fan support either, right?
 

sharkhawk

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Jun 1, 2013
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Aurora, IL
Okay so, the longer this conversation went on, and the longer people didn't address the OP's question, the more I became interested to know the answer. So I did a little digging into some numbers.

Full disclosure: I'm a Pens fan.

That said, I also have no animosity towards, nor disrespect for the Hawks and what they've accomplished, and would be THRILLED if the Pens were able to replicate the Hawks 3-in-6 feat. I have the utmost respect for them, and felt I could offer a fairly objective answer to OPs question. There's already a discussion in the Playoffs board about the Pens (and Hawks) and what constitutes a dynasty, which team is closer to being a dynasty, and I support the idea of the Hawks as having been closer to a dynasty than the Pens.

First of all, let me reiterate that the OP defined the timeframe we're speaking about as 2005-2006 to 2017-2018. That's a 13 year span, and that's how I'm measuring this.

The first thing I wanted to do is actually define "Success" in the context of "Franchise". I think there's a number of ways you can define "success" (as a fan) and also as a "franchise operator". It's unclear if the OP intended for financials to play into the answer, but when I hear "Franchise" used in the context of success, my mind tends to include the "Business" component, as opposed to when I hear "Team" I just think of straight up on-ice performance. That's fine if you don't see it that way, but I pulled some numbers incase there are others who are curious, and/or see it the same way.

In my mind, and I'm sure you all agree... on-ice Success starts and ends with Cups. From there I tend to look at Playoff Runs, and then Regulation Records.

As far as the Business side of it goes (and I'm sure someone from the Business of Hockey board could really elaborate and expound on this stuff), I see two measures of success. 1) Franchise value & subsequently 2) Fan participation. One begets the other to certain extent.

Also, please keep in mind I went into this research exercise knowing very little about the Blackhawks, statistically and financially, so I wasn't cherry-picking these categories to measure success to suit any kind of narrative. I was genuinely curious as to how the numbers fleshed out.


1) Stanley Cups
Both teams have 3 cups in 13 years. I don't care whether they were all consecutive, or smattered across the timeframe given... 3 cups is 3 cups... Period. I think some people would give the nod to the Penguins for their 2008 SCF appearance, as a tie-breaker of sorts, but I'm not going to do that here.
(Valuing cups in terms of QoC or depth of field is an interesting thing that I might explore the math of privately for kicks. Edit: Done http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/cup-success-measured-against-field-size.2489849/)

Summary: Tie


2) Playoff Runs
I'm not suggesting this method is the de-facto way measuring a team's success, it's simply a method I thought was fair (from my perspective as a fan), in terms of being a simplistic way of resolving a team's playoff success mathematically. I'm totally prepared to defend my rationale for this system, and I'm also totally open to hearing alternate solutions and alternate proposed systems.

I awarded the teams points based on the following criteria for each year:
0 = Did not qualify for playoffs
1 = 1st round appearance
2 = 2nd round appearance
3 = 3rd round appearance
4 = 4th round appearance

This is how it played out:

Pittsburgh Penguins
0,1,4,4,2,1,1,3,2,1,4,4,2
29pts

Chicago Blackhawks
0,0,0,3,4,1,1,4,3,4,1,1,0
22pts

Summary: Pittsburgh Penguins have had more Playoff Success outside of Stanley Cups


3) Regulation Records

This is dead-easy to measure, and needs very little prefacing.

Pittsburgh Penguins
1032GP - 583W - 342L - 107OTL

Chicago Blackhawks
1032GP - 544W - 364L - 124OTL

Summary: Pittsburgh Penguins have seen more On-Ice Success in terms of Wins and Losses, during the Regular Season, which is where the bulk of the games the two teams have played in the given timeframe is.



4) Franchise Value

If we want to know which franchise has seen the greatest financial and brand gains in a given timeframe, we need to look at their growth in that timeframe. I thought the Forbes valuation would be a decent metric for that, and without already knowing what the numbers would be, this is what I found:

Forbes Value

Pittsburgh Penguins, $264 Million, 161.4% growth from 2005-2018 (#1 NHL)

Chicago Blackhawks, $306 Million, 71.9% growth from 2005-2018 (#9 NHL)

Source: NHL Franchise Values Before and After the 2004-2005 Lockout

Summary: Pittsburgh Penguins have been more successful as a business, from a growth perspective, in the given timeframe.





5) Fan Participation

Fan Participation is critical to a hockey org's success. This one's tricky however, because obviously the markets are completely different, in terms of economics and size. I opted to examine Fan Attendance* based on Arena Capacity as a way of looking at which team was the most successful in terms of drawing people to the gates and to the games. This is what I came up with:

Pittsburgh Penguins
16,940 x (205g) (2005-2006) + 18,387 x (304g) (2010-2011)
3,417,715/3,472,700 Mellon Arena
5,797,696/5,589,648 PPG Paints Arena
--------------------
9,215,411/9,062,348
101.7% Capacity

Chicago Blackhawks
19,717 x (509g)
10,324,799/10,035,953 United Center
102.9% Capacity

Attendance Souces:
Pittsburgh Penguins home attendance 2005-2018 | Statistic
Chicago Blackhawks home attendance 2005-2018 | Statistic

*I assumed all teams played half of their schedule at home, and I did not account for any home games over-seas (Sweden, London, etc)... for the sake of simplicity.

Summary: Chicago Blackhawks have seen more success at the box office, in terms of their ability to draw more people to their games, in the context of raw numbers as well as arena capacity.



In conclusion, I'd look at those 5 things and lean towards crediting the Penguins as having been the greater franchise in the last 13 seasons. I'd be happy to hear any other factors you guys think should be accounted for that you feel I've overlooked there. Apologies for any grammatical or mathematical errors, please let me know if you spot any, and I'll fix them up right away.

Good points but I think your franchise values are way out of date. The article appears to be dated today but they are saying in the 7 years since the lockout. Plus the valuations of 300 million for the teams is ludicrously low considering the Knights just paid 500 million for their franchise. Forbes now have the hawks at 1 billion and the penguins at 650 million. So the pens have about 631%. Growth and the hawks somewhere around 500%
 
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Tweed

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Jun 25, 2006
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Good points but I think your franchise values are way out of date. The article appears to be dated today but they are saying in the 7 years since the lockout. Plus the valuations of 300 million for the teams is ludicrously low considering the Knights just paid 500 million for their franchise. Forbes now have the hawks at 1 billion and the penguins at 650 million. So the pens have about 631%. Growth and the hawks somewhere around 500%


Oh yeah, good catch man. Thanks for that, I'll update the numbers in my post.
 

nbwingsfan

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Dec 13, 2009
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Doesn't sound like no support to me.


Dude are you really going to try and dispute this? It's a literal fact that between I believe it was 2001 and 2007 they were no higher than 23rd in attendance and twice were 29th, once averaging less than 13,000 fans a game.
 

Kaners Bald Spot

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Dec 6, 2011
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Kane County, IL
By the way, for those who say that the Hawks did nothing to change the game, you're 100% wrong. The Hawks were the pioneers of "Hockey Moneyball" in that they led the way to winning cups via having a strong understanding of things like puck posession, speed over size, shot suppression and high danger scoring chances. From 2010-2014 they probably had the highest SF/SA ratio in the NHL and that wasn't by accident. They gave more to the game than just having 2/3 of the best forwards in the game. They completely changed the trajectory of the sport. In 2015 the rest of the league started to wise up and their advantage wasn't what it used to be but they won anyway. Even though the Pens are more successful, the Hawks will probably be of more historical significance. They completely changed how the game is played and rosters are constructed. I think the history of hockey will look more fondly upon the Hawks unless Sid and Geno win 2 more cups together before the end of their careers.

In short, the Hawks revolutionized the sport by showing how to win without generational talent. Toews and Kane are great players, but they're not Sid/Geno/Ovi
 
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ColbyChaos

Marty Snoozeman's Father
Sep 27, 2017
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Dude are you really going to try and dispute this? It's a literal fact that between I believe it was 2001 and 2007 they were no higher than 23rd in attendance and twice were 29th, once averaging less than 13,000 fans a game.

They were taken off of TV and Wirtz tried making hawksvision a thing (at one point per reports it was about 20 dollars per game to watch at home) even when the hawksvision service was dissolved a year after its inception Wirtz did not want to try and pursue any cable deals for the team cause $$$. Unless it was a nationally broadcasted game there was no way to see the team play and fans boycotted. They did not even resume appearing on cable television until Wirtz died in 07, right before Kane and Toews played their rookie year so for 15 years it was virtually impossible to see them. No other team has had an owner literally take their team out of the 20th century. You could look at their attendance figures through the 80's and 70's and even the 90's instead of just latching on to one period they were high in those periods and more despite their last title being in the 60s and they missed the playoffs the first year of their sell out streak.
 
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Dont Toews Me Bro

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Mar 20, 2018
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Dude are you really going to try and dispute this? It's a literal fact that between I believe it was 2001 and 2007 they were no higher than 23rd in attendance and twice were 29th, once averaging less than 13,000 fans a game.

Yes I am. Your post said before Toews/Kane there was no fan support. Before implies that the entire history of the franchise which just isn't the case for almost all of that time. It took a perfect storm of greed and corruption to cause the stands to be half empty (at worst).
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
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How is this even an argument?

Pittsburg started their window in 2007 and continued it until (so far) 2018.

Chicago started their window in 2008 and ended it in 2017. (Aka 3 less years of being relevant).

Pittsburgh has back to back cup AND back to back SCF in 08/09 (often forgotten)

Chicago has neither of those things.

PIT had their top guys start earlier. Obviously their window would open earlier.
 

the_fan

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Back to back cup wins are very hard to do therefore its Pittsburgh.
 

GrkFlyersFan

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This debate would be easier to settle if they'd ever played head-to-head for the Cup, which somehow never happened(since the lockout at least). 3 Cups each, Pittsburgh also has the finals loss to Detroit in '08. Also not sure the Hawks' window is closed. Kane and Toews, you would think are older, but they're only 30. Crosby will be 31 by the time next season starts, and Malkin is even older. What Chicago needs to do is rebuild their defense, and hope Crawford stays healthy.
 

nbwingsfan

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Dec 13, 2009
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Yes I am. Your post said before Toews/Kane there was no fan support. Before implies that the entire history of the franchise which just isn't the case for almost all of that time. It took a perfect storm of greed and corruption to cause the stands to be half empty (at worst).

Should be pretty obvious I'm not talking about all time, considering I was responding to a Hawks fan throwing insults at Pens fans for their "pre Crosby" attendance being so low. Clearly the Pens haven't had low attendance forever either.
 

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