Champions Hockey League 2018-2019

[scipio]

Eh, it was a major crisis for them:

Of course the financial crisis affected Gazprom (which business was not affected?), but the company literally had almost the same net profit in 2007 and 2008, which was even higher in 2009.

Anyways, this is a hockey forum. Let's just agree that the old CHL was just a great tournament. The competition was better, the timing was better as games were played later in the season and there was true value when winning (at least for most of the clubs). Also attendance was better, at least in Switzerland.

 

[vorky]

Why doesn't the KHL participate?

From the KHL´s point of view, there is no benefit to play the CHL for multiple reasons:
- scheduling
- CHL is not good enough (sport, finance)

That are official reasons. People following the situation could come with another reasons:
- why should the KHL help the CHL? You know, the CHL´s value would skyrocket if the KHL joined. Why should the KHL do it, if the CHL (and their shareholders- national hockey feds) makes everything to block European clubs joining the KHL?
- why should the KHL join if the CHL sets absurd conditions like no Jokerit in the CHL (because Finnish clubs do not like it)? You know, Jokerit is full member of the KHL. The KHL is international league, why should the KHL agree with excluding Jokerit or other non-RUS teams from participating at the CHL?

The KHL has offered a compromise, lets play one or two games between KHL/CHL champions. Of course, the CHL refused it. My understanding is that the CHL wants Russians/KHL to secure money/prestige for the CHL, and of course there needs to be only one rules, rules set by the CHL. No room for a compromise. The CHL wants to dictate conditions to the KHL, but it does not work like that ...

 

[QnebO]

One thing I dont like is whining about Jokerit losses. Jokerit is funded like soccer teams, who yes have more tix sold, but also they pay so huge salaries in top teams that its not a business that tries to make profit, not even close. People need to get real and understand, some times rich people do stuff like this for their own reasons which are not trying to get rich with sports team.

 

[QnebO]

Of course the financial crisis affected Gazprom (which business was not affected?), but the company literally had almost the same net profit in 2007 and 2008, which was even higher in 2009.

Anyways, this is a hockey forum. Let's just agree that the old CHL was just a great tournament. The competition was better, the timing was better as games were played later in the season and there was true value when winning (at least for most of the clubs). Also attendance was better, at least in Switzerland.

It truly was great, its not just golden memories, its true.





Victoria Cup 2009 - Zürich - Chicago 2-1
Full victoria cup game with some language commentator

You can see that games sold tickets. Product was just all around well done, it was serious CHL. We have missed so much, when that victoria cup didint continue. It felt like the real deal

 

[scipio]

It truly was great, its not just golden memories, its true.





Victoria Cup 2009 - Zürich - Chicago 2-1
Full victoria cup game with some language commentator

You can see that games sold tickets. Product was just all around well done, it was serious CHL. We have missed so much, when that victoria cup didint continue. It felt like the real deal

Ahhh, the feelings As you say it's not just golden memories. I remember how everybody thought that ZSC Lions would not have any chance against Metallurg Magnitogorsk in the finals. Some people even complained that the semi finals between the two Russian teams was the real final - what a great moment to become the first (and sadly last) CHL champions.

BTW, the commentator is Swiss and the language is German

 

[Toro2017]

You know, the CHL´s value would skyrocket if the KHL joined.

I have to use your words and tell you -> fantasy vorky, fantasy. Finland is one of few countries where ice hockey is the most popular sport and for example usually every finnish ice hockey related tv-deals comes to light here. But for some reason it is not public knowledge, how much KHL tv-deal in Finland is worth. Why is it? Is it because russian might feel that others would become jealous or is it the probable one. The deal is so small that they don't want it to become public? Some years ago even R.Rotenberg said on rsport that KHL is third in Finland, after Liiga and CHL. And if tv-channels in Finland are not that enthusiastic about KHL (even when they have one team in it), then why would some "lesser" hockey markets start to throw money like crazy people at CHL, if KHL joined? Makes no sense. Maybe they would get some new money, but "skyrocket" is just a fantasy. Big fantasy. Star wars level fantasy.

The CHL wants to dictate conditions to the KHL, but it does not work like that ...

If "dictate conditions" means that KHL should have the same conditions than others, then yes, they are "dictating". We europeans think that in sport everybody should start from the same starting line (in this case the group stage). CHL dictates CHL the way, that it will become competition that europeans can understand. KHL dictates KHL to be a competition that russians can understand. Again cultural things. For example the rookie award of KHL this year. Did not help KHL reputation in Europe. Did not help at all.

 

[Toro2017]

One thing I dont like is whining about Jokerit losses.

Sorry for that one, but when vorky is creating a show here, just because two clubs were losing some money in CHL, I feel it is important to offer some perspective. Yes two clubs might have lost some money on CHL, but then again probably all the KHL teams lose money, every single season (and those numbers are counted in millions of euros). And in this case one KHL team, Jokerit from Helsinki is probably losing more money in one season, than all the CHL teams in a decade or maybe even several decades.

And to be clear. I dont have any problem with the fact that Jokerit gets those tens of millions, because that money would not come to finnish hockey otherwise. But when somebody is telling us that CHL is not good business, then one just must bring to light the eastern alternative for international hockey competitions in Europe.

 

[vorky]

I have to use your words and tell you -> fantasy vorky, fantasy. Finland is one of few countries where ice hockey is the most popular sport and for example usually every finnish ice hockey related tv-deals comes to light here. But for some reason it is not public knowledge, how much KHL tv-deal in Finland is worth. Why is it? Is it because russian might feel that others would become jealous or is it the probable one. The deal is so small that they don't want it to become public? Some years ago even R.Rotenberg said on rsport that KHL is third in Finland, after Liiga and CHL. And if tv-channels in Finland are not that enthusiastic about KHL (even when they have one team in it), then why would some "lesser" hockey markets start to throw money like crazy people at CHL, if KHL joined? Makes no sense. Maybe they would get some new money, but "skyrocket" is just a fantasy. Big fantasy. Star wars level fantasy.

I used wording as "CHL´s value ", the "value" is important. You transfromed the word "value" into "TV deal." Fine, you can do it, your choice. Honestly, I did not mean exactly the TV deal, but an acceptance of the CHL as a legit competition by fans and media. Read what was said about the CHL 2008 in previous posts.

If "dictate conditions" means that KHL should have the same conditions than others, then yes, they are "dictating". We europeans think that in sport everybody should start from the same starting line (in this case the group stage). CHL dictates CHL the way, that it will become competition that europeans can understand. KHL dictates KHL to be a competition that russians can understand. Again cultural things. For example the rookie award of KHL this year. Did not help KHL reputation in Europe. Did not help at all.

No, I do not mean this. If you remember first year (and before), there were licences in the CHL, so no fair conditions for everyone. In other words, any team could buy a licence, champion or looser, The KHL wanted to do the same for their clubs, to decide which club will play the CHL. For some reason, the CHL refused because Fnnish teams did not like Jokerit. If you want to talk about "the same conditions than others" than why to exclude some KHL clubs? Were they not members of the KHL like all Finnish clubs beijing a member of Liiga? How is it the same conditions argument? I would say it is NOT like that.

If you are talking about the KHL clubs joining in play-offs, I recommend you to read statements of the CHL officials. They proposed it to the KHL.

If you are talking about one match proposal, it was made by the KHL to test the market. As first step. The CHL did not agree. What is wrong with such a game? Both sides would get a response from fans and media if there is any potential in the KHL joining the tournament.

 

[vorky]

Sorry for that one, but when vorky is creating a show here, just because two clubs were losing some money in CHL, I feel it is important to offer some perspective. Yes two clubs might have lost some money on CHL, but then again probably all the KHL teams lose money, every single season (and those numbers are counted in millions of euros). And in this case one KHL team, Jokerit from Helsinki is probably losing more money in one season, than all the CHL teams in a decade or maybe even several decades.

And to be clear. I dont have any problem with the fact that Jokerit gets those tens of millions, because that money would not come to finnish hockey otherwise. But when somebody is telling us that CHL is not good business, then one just must bring to light the eastern alternative for international hockey competitions in Europe.

We should ask the CHL 2008 participating teams if they complain about money received from the CHL 2008.

 

[alce]

Why these threads always filled with KHL related posts? KHL doesn't need CHL and CHL doesn't need KHL. This train has left for good. There's absolutely nothing to discuss here. I would suggest a "no mention of KHL in CHL thread" rule. At least until official news from CHL or KHL management would indicate that situation has been changed.

 

[Jussi]

One thing I dont like is whining about Jokerit losses. Jokerit is funded like soccer teams, who yes have more tix sold, but also they pay so huge salaries in top teams that its not a business that tries to make profit, not even close. People need to get real and understand, some times rich people do stuff like this for their own reasons which are not trying to get rich with sports team.

You didn't just make that comparison again...

Are you even aware of the fact that there's so much more revenue in the football that it's possible for the clubs to make profits, merely from tv rights?

 

[Exarz]

You didn't just make that comparison again...

Are you even aware of the fact that there's so much more revenue in the football that it's possible for the clubs to make profits, merely from tv rights?

Well I would say that the idea is pretty similar, even though the difference in revenue is ridiculous. But if you compare it to football teams in Eastern Europe (which is more relevant than comparing it to BPL, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 etc. since Jokerit is a player on the Eastern European market), I would say it's a pretty good comparison.

 

[Toro2017]

No, I do not mean this. If you remember first year (and before), there were licences in the CHL, so no fair conditions for everyone. In other words, any team could buy a licence, champion or looser, The KHL wanted to do the same for their clubs, to decide which club will play the CHL. For some reason, the CHL refused because Fnnish teams did not like Jokerit. If you want to talk about "the same conditions than others" than why to exclude some KHL clubs? Were they not members of the KHL like all Finnish clubs beijing a member of Liiga? How is it the same conditions argument? I would say it is NOT like that.

You are wrong on this one. The situation was not like any team could back then "buy" a license to participate. Not at all. Founding members had the right to use that A licence for three years, and since they set the competition up, I see no problem with that. There were no KHL teams among the founding members so KHL teams were not treated anyway different than any other "non founding member" clubs around Europe. Non founding member clubs from Finland to Switzerland, Sweden to Italy, Great Britan to Belarus were all treated the same way.

 

[Toro2017]

We should ask the CHL 2008 participating teams if they complain about money received from the CHL 2008.

Yes, and after that we could ask the teams that were supposed to participate CHL 2009, if they were happy about the money, they were promised. In Finland I remember that JYP and Blues were pretty mad about it. And thats the hole point. One could take russian money, but one should never trust their future on russian money. IIHF and Kummola learned that the hard way with the first CHL attempt. It depended too much on russian money and it collapsed as not viable project just after first season. The current CHL have taken a different approach and they already have four season behind them.

 

[vorky]

You are wrong on this one. The situation was not like any team could back then "buy" a license to participate. Not at all. Founding members had the right to use that A licence for three years, and since they set the competition up, I see no problem with that. There were no KHL teams among the founding members so KHL teams were not treated anyway different than any other "non founding member" clubs around Europe. Non founding member clubs from Finland to Switzerland, Sweden to Italy, Great Britan to Belarus were all treated the same way.

Do you say the KHL clubs did not have a right to be among the founding members clubs? Do you consider this as a fair behaviour of the CHL?

 

[Jablkon]

Do you say the KHL clubs did not have a right to be among the founding members clubs? Do you consider this as a fair behaviour of the CHL?

And who cares after four years?

 

[Jussi]

Do you say the KHL clubs did not have a right to be among the founding members clubs? Do you consider this as a fair behaviour of the CHL?

Well it seems they had no interest to be among those. It would have been brought up, had there been such.

 

[albator71]

They don't anymore. Last season already the teams were decided on sports merits.

IIHF ****ed up the previous attempt so royally (putting all the eggs on one sponsor basket, which then drops because Russian clubs lost to Swiss clubs) that it's better the clubs are more in charge and IIHF only a partner.

You are a 100% right Jussi, it would great to have the KHL participating but unfortunately you can't trust Russians because when things dont go their way they dont want to play anymore.

 

[alce]

You are a 100% right Jussi, it would great to have the KHL participating but unfortunately you can't trust Russians because when things dont go their way they dont want to play anymore.

KHL didn't drop out of CHL 2008 edition. It was ended because there was no sponsor for it. Do you really see no difference between "don't want to play in" and "don't want to pay for"?

 

[Jussi]

KHL didn't drop out of CHL 2008 edition. It was ended because there was no sponsor for it. Do you really see no difference between "don't want to play in" and "don't want to pay for"?

He didn't even say that.

 

[alce]

He didn't even say that.

He did. In other words, but he did say exactly this. "don't want to play". Hockey teams "play" in tournaments and there were no declining from KHL teams, so his words were complete lie. Sponsors didn't play they pay. And only if they think it worth the cost. Gazprom bailed out because it wasn't. If you disagree then why couldn't they find another sponsor for it? Level of entitlement among some posters is just astonishing.

 

[albator71]

KHL didn't drop out of CHL 2008 edition. It was ended because there was no sponsor for it. Do you really see no difference between "don't want to play in" and "don't want to pay for"?

Thats not what a said alce, im just saying that when russians are involved they want to control everything, they want everything done their way, and they think they are better then anyone else, and if they dont get their way then they go home. you just cant trust them. as far as im concern its better if russians are not involved in CHL.

 

[albator71]

He did. In other words, but he did say exactly this. "don't want to play". Hockey teams "play" in tournaments and there were no declining from KHL teams, so his words were complete lie. Sponsors didn't play they pay. And only if they think it worth the cost. Gazprom bailed out because it wasn't. If you disagree then why couldn't they find another sponsor for it? Level of entitlement among some posters is just astonishing.

yes and Gazprom is a russian company. mmmmmm thats curious that after only one year they decided to drop out?

 

[alce]

Thats not what a said alce, im just saying that when russians are involved they want to control everything, they want everything done their way, and they think they are better then anyone else, and if they dont get their way then they go home. you just cant trust them. as far as im concern its better if russians are not involved in CHL.

I agree that it better for both sides to be completely separate. I just see no reasons for such speculations. Gazprom had paid quite a money for CHL 2008. Without it CHL 2008 couldn't be what it was. That's a fact. I don't know what they have expected, but apparently return from it wasn't worth it. So they bailed. As many other sponsors do for such tournaments. It's not their fault that IIHF couldn't find replacement. It just shows that Gazprom was completely right in its decision. CHL 2008 was completely unsustainable from the start. You cant blame someone for not wanting to throw money away.

 

[alce]

yes and Gazprom is a russian company. mmmmmm thats curious that after only one year they decided to drop out?

No return from investment? I remember Russian railway did commercial football tournament. They did invite 3 European top teams and played it between 4 teams (plus Locomotive M). It did survive for like 2 years, because it haven't generated enough attention to justify the cost. So they ended it. Just like Gazprom with CHL. It's business decision.

And again KHL clubs at that time would gladly keep playing in CHL if another sponsor would pay for it. So "don't want to play" was completely false.