Post-Game Talk: Cats 3, Pens 2 OT | At Least We Got a Point

[BHD]

The Bolts are going to embarrass them on Saturday.

 

[joeyjake5]

This team was a really good possession team every year under Sully besides this one and 17. In 17 they were good defensively still, this year they’re terrible. If you look at the D rosters.. that makes complete sense. It’s not coaching.

 

[turd]

The Bolts are going to embarrass them on Saturday.

Don’t we always say that, and then the Pens go out and kick some ass?

 

[ColePens]

Don’t we always say that, and then the Pens go out and kick some ass?

Thus why it is massively frustrating. But yes, I completely agree. They'll walk into Tampa and play 60 minutes and play well. I don't understand it. It's very weird. Oh well. Frustrating year, but oh well. It happens to all teams/organizations/etc.

 

[joeyjake5]

in 17, the good defense was Murray and MAF. W/O these two, pens don't win the cup in 17. The handwriting was on the wall to fix this team then. JR tried with getting RR. You can say this was a bad trade or not. But what made it bad was including RR in the Brassard trade. Shipping out RR ,Cole, a good goalie prospect and picks was over-payment. The Brassard trade was a complete failure by any measurement. Then trading Sheary/Hunwick for cap space was OK. But putting this cap savings into JJ was another failure. This year's trades that shipped out Hags, Sprong, Brassard, Shean and JO are at best lateral moves. Going forward these things must happen for the pens to be a cup contender or even make the playoffs: Geno must return to his October form, Schultz must come back to his former self, NB must be productive, and goal tending must be better than average. The chances of this happening IMO are less than 50-50. JR if you do anything, DON'T TRADE the #1 pick.

 

[ColePens]

I will say the one glaring issue this era has had is the inability to focus and listen to a coach for more than 2-3 years. It is really beyond mind-boggling. It may be the weirdest thing i've ever seen in sports and i'm not exaggerating. Their attention span to a coach is 2-3 years. Nobody on defense looks like they know how to play defense. Everyone on offense looks like they are snake-bit. The team looks on separate pages. There is a complete disregard obviously for what Sully wants to do and what the players are doing or are capable of doing.

And i don't buy for one second it is a roster or leadership issue. We've seen this cycle over and over in this era. They lose focus, get a new coach, and win the Cup. It is insanity. And every single time the small handful of negative posters walk in here and claim it is all over and then they run and hide when the Pens come back with a vengeance.

But we've seen this story every single time. It's incredible.

 

[Andy99]

I will say the one glaring issue this era has had is the inability to focus and listen to a coach for more than 2-3 years. It is really beyond mind-boggling. It may be the weirdest thing i've ever seen in sports and i'm not exaggerating. Their attention span to a coach is 2-3 years. Nobody on defense looks like they know how to play defense. Everyone on offense looks like they are snake-bit. The team looks on separate pages. There is a complete disregard obviously for what Sully wants to do and what the players are doing or are capable of doing.

And i don't buy for one second it is a roster or leadership issue. We've seen this cycle over and over in this era. They lose focus, get a new coach, and win the Cup. It is insanity. And every single time the small handful of negative posters walk in here and claim it is all over and then they run and hide when the Pens come back with a vengeance.

But we've seen this story every single time. It's incredible.

So Sully's gotta go? I'm on board...the coaching staff lost its luster for me earlier in the year...I don't see them helping to turn this around....unfortunately I don't see the organization firing him any time soon even if they should...I just hope we don't lose any more assets chasing a Cup we're not going to be anywhere close to this year

 

[The Old Master]

I will say the one glaring issue this era has had is the inability to focus and listen to a coach for more than 2-3 years. It is really beyond mind-boggling. It may be the weirdest thing i've ever seen in sports and i'm not exaggerating. Their attention span to a coach is 2-3 years. Nobody on defense looks like they know how to play defense. Everyone on offense looks like they are snake-bit. The team looks on separate pages. There is a complete disregard obviously for what Sully wants to do and what the players are doing or are capable of doing.

And i don't buy for one second it is a roster or leadership issue. We've seen this cycle over and over in this era. They lose focus, get a new coach, and win the Cup. It is insanity. And every single time the small handful of negative posters walk in here and claim it is all over and then they run and hide when the Pens come back with a vengeance.

But we've seen this story every single time. It's incredible.

so when do we get a new coach? and more importantly who?

 

[ChaosAgent]

I will say the one glaring issue this era has had is the inability to focus and listen to a coach for more than 2-3 years. It is really beyond mind-boggling. It may be the weirdest thing i've ever seen in sports and i'm not exaggerating. Their attention span to a coach is 2-3 years. Nobody on defense looks like they know how to play defense. Everyone on offense looks like they are snake-bit. The team looks on separate pages. There is a complete disregard obviously for what Sully wants to do and what the players are doing or are capable of doing.

And i don't buy for one second it is a roster or leadership issue. We've seen this cycle over and over in this era. They lose focus, get a new coach, and win the Cup. It is insanity. And every single time the small handful of negative posters walk in here and claim it is all over and then they run and hide when the Pens come back with a vengeance.

But we've seen this story every single time. It's incredible.

I'll just echo the previous posters in saying that you just endorsed firing Sullivan. That's a big step. Maybe that does it. Sid, Geno and Letang are in their 30s now.

 

[Shwag33]

I don't think coaching is the issue. Sully can coach, but the message doesn't seem to be getting across like colepens said. However, you don't make a switch as long as they'll be making the playoffs because as we know it can get worse. See johnston...

 

[Doogle]

I wonder if Sullivan's system is too complicated, and that players are thinking too much trying to play within the system? And instead of trying to play to his players' strengths, maximize those strengths and minimize any deficiencies, he's just reaming them out for not playing his system how it's supposed to be played? I'm starting to get that feeling that I did towards the end of Bylsma's years... the whole 'get to our game' notion that he would keep insisting upon, meanwhile the team's stats would look worse and worse as other teams caught on, and eventually it started to look like we were just beating our heads against a wall with all those stretch passes. Same thing now, except I'm not exactly sure what Sullivan is trying to accomplish; just that he's not doing it. I'm also getting flashbacks to Mike Johnston; our team is constantly collapsing and is boring AF to watch anymore.

I'm not suggesting he be fired. But his seat should be a little warm. And I have also yet to figure out what Mark Recchi does behind the bench.

 

[ColePens]

so when do we get a new coach? and more importantly who?

I'm not condoning that at all. I honestly cannot make sense of it. It just keeps happening. It's like a psychological switch to get the team to focus. It makes zero sense to me.

The trick cannot be firing a coach each time. It just cannot be.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I wonder if Sullivan's system is too complicated, and that players are thinking too much trying to play within the system? And instead of trying to play to his players' strengths, maximize those strengths and minimize any deficiencies, he's just reaming them out for not playing his system how it's supposed to be played? I'm starting to get that feeling that I did towards the end of Bylsma's years... the whole 'get to our game' notion that he would keep insisting upon, meanwhile the team's stats would look worse and worse as other teams caught on, and eventually it started to look like we were just beating our heads against a wall with all those stretch passes. Same thing now, except I'm not exactly sure what Sullivan is trying to accomplish; just that he's not doing it. I'm also getting flashbacks to Mike Johnston; our team is constantly collapsing and is boring AF to watch anymore.

I'm not suggesting he be fired. But his seat should be a little warm. And I have also yet to figure out what Mark Recchi does behind the bench.

Per Cole's logic - and I don't disagree with it at all - the cause of his firing would not be merit but that this team has historically ratcheted up its performance when a new coach enters the picture. If that's the case, you should do it now. Unfortunately, I think sentimentality is winning out on the GM, Coach and many key players which is going to take us down the Chicago path of the last couple years.

 

[ColePens]

So Sully's gotta go? I'm on board...the coaching staff lost its luster for me earlier in the year...I don't see them helping to turn this around....unfortunately I don't see the organization firing him any time soon even if they should...I just hope we don't lose any more assets chasing a Cup we're not going to be anywhere close to this year

I've got bad news... JR will be chasing a Cup every single year. IMO he's right to do so. The reality is - we will hit rock bottom when this era is over. I'm totally fine with it. It's a tried and true way to do it. I have no intention on wanting to see the team hover around good and not be great. Go from great to awful to great. It has worked since the 80s. Keep doing it.

 

[ColePens]

Per Cole's logic - and I don't disagree with it at all - the cause of his firing would not be merit but that this team has historically ratcheted up its performance when a new coach enters the picture. If that's the case, you should do it now. Unfortunately, I think sentimentality is winning out on the GM, Coach and many key players which is going to take us down the Chicago path of the last couple years.

In my post I did not give my assessment on what we should do. In no way am i condoning the constant firing of coaches.

 

[EightyOne]

It's getting to be too late to fire coaching staff.

Less than thirty games now.

Shoulda just pulled the trigger in November.

 

[ChaosAgent]

In my post I did not give my assessment on what we should do. In no way am i condoning the constant firing of coaches.

Your post said: that after the Penguins fire the coach, refocus, and win another cup the negative posters would scurry away. So step 1 is firing the coach.

You can think Sullivan is a good coach and still think firing him is the right move; those aren't mutually exclusive positions.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sullivan shouldn't be fired, if he has too complicated of a system, he should dumb down his system. I'm going to say something that will probably get me into hot water, but the Penguins didn't lose in the playoffs under Bylsma because they played a dump and chase grinding game. They lost in the playoffs because Bylsma was too stubborn to change that system when it wasn't working and a ton of roster issues. Now, is Sullivan going to have that problem where he's too stubborn to make needed changes? That remains to be seen.

 

[canadianguy77]

I will say the one glaring issue this era has had is the inability to focus and listen to a coach for more than 2-3 years. It is really beyond mind-boggling. It may be the weirdest thing i've ever seen in sports and i'm not exaggerating. Their attention span to a coach is 2-3 years. Nobody on defense looks like they know how to play defense. Everyone on offense looks like they are snake-bit. The team looks on separate pages. There is a complete disregard obviously for what Sully wants to do and what the players are doing or are capable of doing.

And i don't buy for one second it is a roster or leadership issue. We've seen this cycle over and over in this era. They lose focus, get a new coach, and win the Cup. It is insanity. And every single time the small handful of negative posters walk in here and claim it is all over and then they run and hide when the Pens come back with a vengeance.

But we've seen this story every single time. It's incredible.

Funny thing is, the median tenure for NHL coaches is 2.5 years, and the average tenure is a little less than 3.5 years. So obviously our team isn't the only one with these issues. They're pretty much middle of the pack in this regard.

 

[EightyOne]

Funny thing is, the median tenure for NHL coaches is 2.5 years, and the average tenure is a little less than 3.5 years. So obviously our team isn't the only one with these issues. They're pretty much middle of the pack in this regard.

That's surprising. Seems like every team has a 5+ year coach. Hmm.

 

[canadianguy77]

That's surprising. Seems like every team has a 5+ year coach. Hmm.

This was from 2016, but I doubt things have changed drastically since then.

NFL head coaches have good job security when compared to other major sports leagues

 

[Gurglesons]

The Bolts are going to embarrass them on Saturday.

Way more worried about the Flyers..

 

[ColePens]

Your post said: that after the Penguins fire the coach, refocus, and win another cup the negative posters would scurry away. So step 1 is firing the coach.

You can think Sullivan is a good coach and still think firing him is the right move; those aren't mutually exclusive positions.

Not picking on you but your comprehension of what im saying is quite poor. My intention of the post was not to deliver MY assessment or opinion. Im just telling you what has happened.

 

[Angrrus]

I will say the one glaring issue this era has had is the inability to focus and listen to a coach for more than 2-3 years. It is really beyond mind-boggling. It may be the weirdest thing i've ever seen in sports and i'm not exaggerating. Their attention span to a coach is 2-3 years. Nobody on defense looks like they know how to play defense. Everyone on offense looks like they are snake-bit. The team looks on separate pages. There is a complete disregard obviously for what Sully wants to do and what the players are doing or are capable of doing.

And i don't buy for one second it is a roster or leadership issue. We've seen this cycle over and over in this era. They lose focus, get a new coach, and win the Cup. It is insanity. And every single time the small handful of negative posters walk in here and claim it is all over and then they run and hide when the Pens come back with a vengeance.

But we've seen this story every single time. It's incredible.

I think about half, if not more, of current roster wasn’t here when Sully came on board.

Hence, I think on the team core. They are the ones who create toxic vibe between the players and the coaches.

Remember, Mario chased Scotty Bowman (!!!) out of town after just one season. Apparently, he felt that the Cup was entirely on him, and he didn’t need even the best coach in history.

No wonder where this culture comes from in Pens organization.

 

[ChaosAgent]

@ColePens , I understand our differences here. I'm just saying that if you look at your original post, it says that the last 2 times we have been scuttling and fired a coach mid-season, we won the Cup that year. And that it's dumb that it works that way, and you wish it weren't the case. And that the timing of this always tends to occur when doom & gloom posters (like myself, presumably - and that's okay) tend to infest this board.

Where do I have this wrong?

You laid out some simple premises that lead to a logical conclusion: we should change the coach. I know you like Sullivan but you just laid out a very compelling case to get rid of him, whether you intended to or not.

By the way, not all organizations (and this is not just in sports) work better in a state of stability. Some of them need to be destabilized to get the people motivated; they live by "the only constant is change." So the Penguins would not be the first or last organization to work this way.