Post-Game Talk: Cats 3, Pens 2 OT | At Least We Got a Point

[td_ice]

I've got bad news... JR will be chasing a Cup every single year. IMO he's right to do so. The reality is - we will hit rock bottom when this era is over. I'm totally fine with it. It's a tried and true way to do it. I have no intention on wanting to see the team hover around good and not be great. Go from great to awful to great. It has worked since the 80s. Keep doing it.

Not to be debbie downer, BUT......if they do hit rock bottom, they better restructure the ticket pricing. Cause they are maxed out right now as it is. I know on some nights, the extra pair of seats I have, I can't give away. They won't sell on ticket exchange for $30 a seat, and I paid $45 per. The lower bowl prices are extremely high for this city.

The Pens have a large fan base, but not a large ticket buying fan base. And what there is of it, is getting buyers fatigue. I know I will drop mine for next year and just buy below face value seats online. Another concern is the luxury suites. Will companies still pony up those extraordinary prices they paid to see 2 superstars, for a bunch of lunch pail guys?? And I can also see Mario trying to sell his share once the team bottoms out. But hopefully Burkle remains. People always say, 'wait till they lose Sid and Geno, they will be in trouble', and that could be true. Only because the size of the fan base. Current circumstances, great attendance, spending to the cap, are being buoyed by the current superstars we have. And this era of winning. Without it?? for the reasons mentioned, things could be a lot different. Hopefully Burkle and Mario stay, and that we continue to spend to the cap. But for now, I remain skeptical that they are here just riding out a good thing. I could be wrong on that. I think the main thing will be the lowering of the ticket prices, and if they do that, do we become a bottom of the payroll team, like the Pirates. Mario always said, 'this is a business first'. Right now business is good. It won't always be that way. Want to see what happens when the current era is over.

 

[EightyOne]

Not picking on you but your comprehension of what im saying is quite poor. My intention of the post was not to deliver MY assessment or opinion. Im just telling you what has happened.

The blood is in the water, man. It WAS easily inferred from your post, lol.

We're gonna take our chance to bring down the mighty @ColePens into the mucky gutter we inhabit.

Better say the discussion has moved on from the game and lock this thread

 

[ChaosAgent]

Not to be debbie downer, BUT......if they do hit rock bottom, they better restructure the ticket pricing. Cause they are maxed out right now as it is. I know on some nights, the extra pair of seats I have, I can't give away. They won't sell on ticket exchange for $30 a seat, and I paid $45 per. The lower bowl prices are extremely high for this city.

The Pens have a large fan base, but not a large ticket buying fan base. And what there is of it, is getting buyers fatigue. I know I will drop mine for next year and just buy below face value seats online. Another concern is the luxury suites. Will companies still pony up those extraordinary prices they paid to see 2 superstars, for a bunch of lunch pail guys?? And I can also see Mario trying to sell his share once the team bottoms out. But hopefully Burkle remains. People always say, 'wait till they lose Sid and Geno, they will be in trouble', and that could be true. Only because the size of the fan base. Current circumstances, great attendance, spending to the cap, are being buoyed by the current superstars we have. And this era of winning. Without it?? for the reasons mentioned, things could be a lot different. Hopefully Burkle and Mario stay, and that we continue to spend to the cap. But for now, I remain skeptical that they are here just riding out a good thing. I could be wrong on that. I think the main thing will be the lowering of the ticket prices, and if they do that, do we become a bottom of the payroll team, like the Pirates. Mario always said, 'this is a business first'. Right now business is good. It won't always be that way. Want to see what happens when the current era is over.

Manager, Partnership Operations With Pittsburgh Penguins in Pittsburgh, PA job at NHL in Pittsburgh, PA - 16337161

I agree with you! Whoever gets this job is in for a rough ride...

 

[td_ice]

Manager, Partnership Operations With Pittsburgh Penguins in Pittsburgh, PA job at NHL in Pittsburgh, PA - 16337161

I agree with you! Whoever gets this job is in for a rough ride...

That's a big hire.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The blood is in the water, man. It WAS easily inferred from your post, lol.

We're gonna take our chance to bring down the mighty @ColePens into the mucky gutter we inhabit.

Better say the discussion has moved on from the game and lock this thread

It's funny because these discussions always devolve into the "mucky gutter" posters saber-rattling for change and the tenured posters preaching "stay the course."

But for the Pens in the Crosby/Malkin era, is the idea of keeping-the-band-together "staying the course?" Or is "the course" moreso "every 3-5 years fire the coach midseason and go Supernova?" Fun discussion after a dismal game.

 

[Pancakes]

I think we'll be OK when we become bad simply because of the new building.

But if we were bad for a long time it could get ugly ticket-wise.

 

[Pancakes]

Thus why it is massively frustrating. But yes, I completely agree. They'll walk into Tampa and play 60 minutes and play well. I don't understand it. It's very weird. Oh well. Frustrating year, but oh well. It happens to all teams/organizations/etc.

I'm not necessarily convinced of that if only because Tampa absolutely caved us in possession last game. We got that 3-0 lead and then it was all Tampa after that. Where were the overall shots too like 35-22 or something?

Don't like our odds of winning if we get caved like that in shots again. I'm sure score effects was part of it but yeesh it was like 17-5 in shots in that first period and we were up 3-0 lol.

 

[chethejet]

Pens spend as a big market team and clearly that can't continue without the draw of Sid ect. Arena cash flow is a real boost to the franchise but still all the success of cup runs and deep playoff series that is a nice bank for the franchise. It is hand in hand. Pens will rebuild with cheaper players on ELC ect.

In three years assuming no moves Letang, Geno, Kessel and Dumo and some others are over or near over so allowing for fill-ins or additions, Pens will have a much lower cost of doing business and with the TV contract of NBC up, the next large TV deal should increase. Financially Pens will position themselves for higher picks and rebuild of the next core. Plus you have the cash from LV and next Seattle roughly 30 million so Pens should have the financial flexibility to rebuild.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sullivan shouldn't be fired, if he has too complicated of a system, he should dumb down his system. I'm going to say something that will probably get me into hot water, but the Penguins didn't lose in the playoffs under Bylsma because they played a dump and chase grinding game. They lost in the playoffs because Bylsma was too stubborn to change that system when it wasn't working and a ton of roster issues. Now, is Sullivan going to have that problem where he's too stubborn to make needed changes? That remains to be seen.

I mean, we're 50+ games in and he doesn't seem willing to change the system, despite the fact aside from a 7-game winning streak the team has looked anywhere from average to awful most of this season.

By now you'd think he'd alter the system to factor in the personnel he has, rather than expect them to play a system this team (particularly this defense corps) is unable to play.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, we're 50+ games in and he doesn't seem willing to change the system, despite the fact aside from a 7-game winning streak the team has looked anywhere from average to awful most of this season.

By now you'd think he'd alter the system to factor in the personnel he has, rather than expect them to play a system this team (particularly this defense corps) is unable to play.

Or maybe he would rather keep going with this system because Schultz is going to be back, and he thinks that Schultz is the missing piece for this system to work. Why change the system when you're just going to change back when you have everyone healthy? It's not like they're going to miss the playoffs.

 

[2wayPlay]

Really need to win the Flyers game and get on a run. Assuming we lose tomorrow things are going to start getting dicey playoff wise

 

[2wayPlay]

Or maybe he would rather keep going with this system because Schultz is going to be back, and he thinks that Schultz is the missing piece for this system to work. Why change the system when you're just going to change back when you have everyone healthy? It's not like they're going to miss the playoffs.

I wouldn’t be so sure of that. This team has several problems and it doesn’t seem like Sully is willing to try and change any of them.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Or maybe he would rather keep going with this system because Schultz is going to be back, and he thinks that Schultz is the missing piece for this system to work. Why change the system when you're just going to change back when you have everyone healthy? It's not like they're going to miss the playoffs.

If Sullivan thinks the only thing keeping his system from working with this group is Justin Schultz, then I question his ability to assess his own roster's limitations.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Sullivan thinks the only thing keeping his system from working with this group is Justin Schultz, then I question his ability to assess his own roster's limitations.

I really don't think that's fair to question his ability to assess his own roster's limitations. Like at all. The Penguins have never had Letang playing at this level with a healthy Schultz outside of 40 games in 2016-2017, and that's pretending Letang in 2016-2017 was on par with Letang this year. I'm not going to criticize Sullivan if he thinks that Schultz will solve their problems, because he has a perfectly legit argument for it.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think we'll be OK when we become bad simply because of the new building.

But if we were bad for a long time it could get ugly ticket-wise.

Pens were being sucked dry by SMG and the guaranteed contract to Lemieux, which they owed him 32m and he wasn’t even playing anymore.

They will be more than fine now that they manage the arena and are run by competent owners.

I’m certain when they blow again ticket sales will be slow and seats will be empty, just how it goes in every town save Toronto. Detroit has tons of empty seats now and they are supposedly Hockeytown.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I really don't think that's fair to question his ability to assess his own roster's limitations. Like at all. The Penguins have never had Letang playing at this level with a healthy Schultz outside of 40 games in 2016-2017, and that's pretending Letang in 2016-2017 was on par with Letang this year. I'm not going to criticize Sullivan if he thinks that Schultz will solve their problems, because he has a perfectly legit argument for it.

I mean, the team struggled for most of last season as well with both Schultz and Letang healthy. It's not like it was a well oiled machine last year, but only fell apart as soon as Schultz went down this season.

Look, I don't pretend to be an expert in the X's and O's, but the bottom line is the Penguins struggle with even the basic stuff like giving the opposition too easy zone entries, not pressuring the opposition enough in their own zone, and smoothly getting the puck out of their own zone when they have control of it. Schultz being out isn't the reason all for all those things. So him coming back isn't going to suddenly eliminate those issues.

I'll make you a friendly wager. I'll bet you these same issues will still be present even when Schultz returns. Feel free to bump this if the Pens suddenly look like a well oiled machine with his return, but my guess is they'll still struggle with the same things that are killing them even with him back.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, the team struggled for most of last season as well with both Schultz and Letang healthy. It's not like it was a well oiled machine last year, but only fell apart as soon as Schultz went down this season.

Look, I don't pretend to be an expert in the X's and O's, but the bottom line is the Penguins struggle with even the basic stuff like giving the opposition too easy zone entries, not pressuring the opposition enough in their own zone, and smoothly getting the puck out of their own zone when they have control of it. Schultz being out isn't the reason all for all those things. So him coming back isn't going to suddenly eliminate those issues.

I'll make you a friendly wager. I'll bet you these same issues will still be present even when Schultz returns. Feel free to bump this if the Pens suddenly look like a well oiled machine with his return, but my guess is they'll still struggle with the same things that are killing them even with him back.

The Penguins have never had Letang playing at this level

You intentionally left out this part, which was the entire part of what I was saying. The problem with this team? Puck moving talent. What is Schultz really good at? Moving the puck. The Penguins have never had Schultz on the 2nd pair with Letang not playing like a liability, so to criticize Sullivan for thinking that a healthy Schultz solves a lot of their problems is baseless. It's a perfectly legitimate stance to have, because Letang has been elite this year. If Schultz is what he has been in the past, the problems with your defense are dramatically minimized from where they're currently at.

I'll criticize Sullivan if it doesn't work, but I'm not going to criticize Sullivan for his roster evaluation by thinking that getting a great puck mover back is going to solve their problems with puck moving on defense.

 

[Shady Machine]

I mean, we're 50+ games in and he doesn't seem willing to change the system, despite the fact aside from a 7-game winning streak the team has looked anywhere from average to awful most of this season.

By now you'd think he'd alter the system to factor in the personnel he has, rather than expect them to play a system this team (particularly this defense corps) is unable to play.

How do you know that he hasn't altered the system?

 

[Anita L]

Have seen this scenario before Pens can look awefully bad then all the sudden look unbeatable... lousy goaltending to really good goaltending it's in they're DNA have to wait and see how it all plays out

 

[Pancakes]

Pens were being sucked dry by SMG and the guaranteed contract to Lemieux, which they owed him 32m and he wasn’t even playing anymore.

They will be more than fine now that they manage the arena and are run by competent owners.

I’m certain when they blow again ticket sales will be slow and seats will be empty, just how it goes in every town save Toronto. Detroit has tons of empty seats now and they are supposedly Hockeytown.

Yeah there's not a lot of cities immune to sucking. A few Canadian cities and maybe Philly and the Rangers. I will give the Flyers credit. Even in 06-7 or whenever it was when they really stank they still sold tickets. That city supports its teams pretty well.

Granted, bet even the Flyers would struggle with fans if they stank for a while.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah there's not a lot of cities immune to sucking. A few Canadian cities and maybe Philly and the Rangers. I will give the Flyers credit. Even in 06-7 or whenever it was when they really stank they still sold tickets. That city supports its teams pretty well.

Granted, bet even the Flyers would struggle with fans if they stank for a while.

Nah, even Philly isn’t immune. Their team made the playoffs, yet they have sunk to their worst att. per game in decades.

Flyers Attendance: Is it as Bad as it Seems, or are we Missing Something? | Crossing Broad

They were really low in 2015 as well:

Flyers' attendance, even with ESPN.com error, worst since Spectrum days

Their numbers always look high relative to other teams because of the capacity, but there have been thousands of empty seats there for quite some time now.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How do you know that he hasn't altered the system?

I mean, you're right. I don't know what alterations he's made or hasn't made. But watching them, with an untrained eye, they struggle at even the basic stuff like I described above. If it's not his system, then what? I'm honestly asking.

You intentionally left out this part, which was the entire part of what I was saying. The problem with this team? Puck moving talent. What is Schultz really good at? Moving the puck. The Penguins have never had Schultz on the 2nd pair with Letang not playing like a liability, so to criticize Sullivan for thinking that a healthy Schultz solves a lot of their problems is baseless. It's a perfectly legitimate stance to have, because Letang has been elite this year. If Schultz is what he has been in the past, the problems with your defense are dramatically minimized from where they're currently at.

I'll criticize Sullivan if it doesn't work, but I'm not going to criticize Sullivan for his roster evaluation by thinking that getting a great puck mover back is going to solve their problems with puck moving on defense.

IMO, Schultz isn't a great puck mover. He's a competent one who does his best offensive work once the puck is already in the offensive zone. So it's not like we're getting a second Letang back, who is fantastic at transitioning the puck from the D-zone through the N-zone. We're getting a guy back who is solid at moving the puck, then great once the puck has already entered the O-zone.

 

[Shady Machine]

I mean, you're right. I don't know what alterations he's made or hasn't made. But watching them, with an untrained eye, they struggle at even the basic stuff like I described above. If it's not his system, then what? I'm honestly asking.

IMO, Schultz isn't a great puck mover. He's a competent one who does his best offensive work once the puck is already in the offensive zone. So it's not like we're getting a second Letang back, who is fantastic at transitioning the puck from the D-zone through the N-zone. We're getting a guy back who is solid at moving the puck, then great once the puck has already entered the O-zone.

They have altered the breakout from what they started the season with. I haven't watched the games in depth of late to see what changes they have or haven't made. That's part of why I asked.

I personally think it's a couple things:
- It is hard for this core to get up for 82 games 60 minutes a night. That's why it's important to keep injecting hungry, young legs.
- Without Schultz and adding in Johnson, this defense blows at transitioning the puck and contributing to inzone offense
- The goaltending has been inconsistent
- A lot of roster turnover and line juggling make it hard to have consistency
- Probably some system / identity issues vs the roster

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

I'm not condoning that at all. I honestly cannot make sense of it. It just keeps happening. It's like a psychological switch to get the team to focus. It makes zero sense to me.

The trick cannot be firing a coach each time. It just cannot be.

Agreed. I posted something similar earlier this year. The onus is on the players at this point. We have 2, maybe 3 runs left before things get iffy. We can't afford to jettison a 2 time Cup winning coach and hope that the new guy is a fit and can win a Cup. If you choose poorly or it's a bad fit, you just f***ed the window. I'm not sure how you get them focused though. I wouldn't be surprised if a shake up of the assistants would help.

Maybe they need a "heart to heart" from Mario telling them that things aren't changing and if they don't buy in and focus, they'll never sniff another cup.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They have altered the breakout from what they started the season with. I haven't watched the games in depth of late to see what changes they have or haven't made. That's part of why I asked.

I personally think it's a couple things:
- It is hard for this core to get up for 82 games 60 minutes a night. That's why it's important to keep injecting hungry, young legs.
- Without Schultz and adding in Johnson, this defense blows at transitioning the puck and contributing to inzone offense
- The goaltending has been inconsistent
- A lot of roster turnover and line juggling make it hard to have consistency
- Probably some system / identity issues vs the roster

With regards to the bullet points above:

-I'd agree with you if the only guys who have trouble getting up for 82 games 60 minutes a night were the "core" guys who've been there, done that. But the lack of effort thing seems to infect the entire team, including guys who haven't had nearly the success that Sid/Geno/Tanger have had to justify "taking it easy occasionally". A lot of the guys who seem lazy or not giving it their all are guys who have no right to expect a bit of leeway.

-Like I said to Emp, though, Schultz will help, but I don't think he'll cure what ails this team. Aside from Letang (currently), they range from adequate to terrible at transitioning the puck. Adding in a guy who is closer to Maatta than Letang in terms of outlet passing isn't going to improve it that much. It'll improve, but not significantly. And right now we need significant, not minor improvements.

-I tend to think goalie inconsistency is overblown because of how bad the team in front of them are. Yes, we'd all like the goalies to play at a Top 5 level. But if you watch other teams around the league, their goalies can have off nights and they can still win because of better structure/help in front of them. If our goalie has an off night, we basically get pummeled.

-The line juggling is on the coaches. Last night was a prime example. He gave up on the Bjugstad with Crosby experiment after about a period and a half of it not working. Why not just give it an extended stretch before switching things up? It sometimes seems like unless a new combo scores 2 goals that game, Sullivan goes back to blender mid-game.

-That's why I bring up Sullivan and his system. He should understand his club's strengths and weaknesses by now and implement a system that they can play, not come up with a style of play he wants to see executed regardless of whether the personnel he has can do it or not. IMO, it feels like he's doing the latter rather than the former.