Carolina quartet or Toronto qaurtet

[GIN ANTONIC]

Agreed. Your post is garbage, as usual.
The narrative that the Canadian Division is weak is not a new one as you try to claim. The last Canadian team to win a Cup was over a quarter of a century ago. And yet roughly 20% of the teams are Canadian so on average one should win every five years or so. The last Canadian team to make the SCF was in 2011, a decade ago.
Be better.

The problem is I don't think they can. I would maybe go with 'get well' but it seems that whatever they are suffering from that has given them such meth head fever dream delusions likely isn't curable.

 

[ER89]

Just to clarify the story, Toronto lost to Ayres because Carolina absolutely dominated them line-after-line, man-after-man for almost 30 minutes. Not because Ayres played well. Toronto could have lost that game to a cardboard cutout in net.

Oh I know. To be clear the leafs overcame a what 3 goal deficit and our top line annihilated whatever semblance of defense you put out there. Assumptions of individual games are fun!

 

[bobc222]

What a load of garbage. "Weaker division", my arse. Carolina's been feasting on Columbus, Detroit, Dallas and Chicago all year long. LMAO. The Hurricanes are 16-7-4 against those CRAP teams. That's half of their wins.

That division is not any better than the North. At all.

Carolina needed more points (68) in the standings to clinch than the Leafs will (67). That means that the Canes division was mathematically more difficult to qualify in, since the average points distribution was more equal.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Oooh.......Slavin & Pesce.

Big deal. The Leafs have Brodie and Muzzin, who are just as good.

AGAIN, the Leaf's spending on the "big four" didn't hurt their ability to sign Brodie and Muzzin. You act like Carolina has won something. LOL. They've won nothing, and the Leafs are neck & neck with them, however the salaries are being distributed.

If Brodie and Muzzin are as good as Slavin and Pesce, and Toronto's Big 4 are better than Carolina's roughly 4 best forwards, how are the Leafs just equivalent to the Canes?

Carolina has to have an advantage over the Leafs somewhere in the lineup logically. I'm curious where you think that is.

 

[CatchyTune]

If Brodie and Muzzin are as good as Slavin and Pesce, and Toronto's Big 4 are better than Carolina's roughly 4 best forwards, how are the Leafs just equivalent to the Canes?

Carolina has to have an advantage over the Leafs somewhere in the lineup logically. I'm curious where you think that is.

well it is the defence, obviously. Slavin and Hamilton are both better than anyone we have. there isnt a debate Toronto's defence is even equal to Carolina's.

i also think even though Toronto has better top end talent, Carolina has a more well rounded forward group. Staal is an amazing 3C.

while saying all this, i start to question how it is relative to the thread. the last few pages are basically Toronto v Carolina, and how they allocate their cap space and whatnot. but this is supposed to be which group Seattle would prefer. so i dont see how Carolina allocating saved cap space to Slavin, Pesce etc is very relevant in a Seattle conversation.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

You really read a lot into 4 points. An absurd amount really.

We can't take that seriously of course and your history of any desperate argument to vote against the Leafs make that point even more laughable as it ignores so many factors and has 0 context. Tell me how many man games Carolina lost in net before thinking their 4 points indicate superior management. Our starter has been out half the year....

Omg what a funny take.

Petr Mrazek has been injured twice this season. In the 9 games he's played his stats are as follows...

- 1.60 GAA
- .939 SV%
- 3 SO

You think Freddy being injured has been a bad thing for the Leafs? His numbers in 22 games are as follows...

- 2.91 GAA
- .897 SV%
- 0 SO

If he's healthy, the Leafs probably aren't even 1st in their division. Those aren't even average back-up numbers. James Reimer is our 3rd string goalie and his stats look like prime Hasek compared to that.

LOL. What a terrible terrible take.

 

[CatchyTune]

I'm not sure Toronto has better forwards than Carolina. The only player that is arguably better than Aho is Matthews and even then it's close.

i dont know why you keep pushing this. pretty sure its just troll bait. but no, Matthews is much better than Aho. Marner is better as well. Aho is closest to Tavares.

 

[Holymakinaw]

I mean maybe, Carolina would get killed by the Jets and Oilers. I told you they did have trouble against weaker competition like Detroit so who knows.

Just so we have this straight...

- Carolina being 2nd in the league and a couple wins away from 1st overall 'ain't great'
- The Leafs are tied for the 7th best record in the league and that's the same as Carolina being 2nd

I know 2 and 7 kind of look a like if you flip them upside down but are you really this clueless?

LOL. Oh the ego.

Have nice Wednesday, Big Head.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

well it is the defence, obviously. Slavin and Hamilton are both better than anyone we have. there isnt a debate Toronto's defence is even equal to Carolina's.

i also think even though Toronto has better top end talent, Carolina has a more well rounded forward group. Staal is an amazing 3C.

while saying all this, i start to question how it is relative to the thread. the last few pages are basically Toronto v Carolina, and how they allocate their cap space and whatnot. but this is supposed to be which group Seattle would prefer. so i dont see how Carolina allocating saved cap space to Slavin, Pesce etc is very relevant in a Seattle conversation.

He was really only posting that because Holy Makinut posted that Muzzin and Brodie were 'just as good as Slavin and Pesce'.

I guess the point is with Seattle taking the Canes 4 and the added cap is that they COULD theoretically fill out the roster with good surrounding players and a great defence. Whether they are able to is another story and one that you can't really answer. However, if they take the Leafs 4 players and use up half their cap on that then there's no conceivable way they can have a balanced roster.

i dont know why you keep pushing this. pretty sure its just troll bait. but no, Matthews is much better than Aho. Marner is better as well. Aho is closest to Tavares.

I think it's fair to break things down like this. Each position should be measured against each other.

CANES
Aho = 1C
TT = 1W
Trochek = 2C
Svech = 1/2W

LEAFS
Matthews = 1C
Marner = 1W
Tavares = 2C
Nylander = 1/2 W

If we base it solely on play this year then I think you rate them like this...

Matthews > Aho
Marner > TT
Tavares = Trochek
Nylander = Svech

You can make argument Tavares over Tro or Tro over Tavares. You can make an argument for Willy over Svech or Svech over Willy. Moving forward I think everyone takes Svech as a player and I really don't know about Tro vs Tavares. If this year is how the next few play out then they're probably even. Trochek has been phenomenal for the Canes I can tell you that.

If you bring contracts into the debate it gets much muddier.

No one is going to touch Matthews in on ice talent. He's a top 3-5 player in the league and you could argue higher if you want. He costs a ton but he's worth it. Aho is great but he is not going to be on that level. Is the difference in value $3.2 AAV? I don't know.

TT is never going to be the point producer that Marner is either. TT is a great 70-80 point player, maybe ppg, who plays excellent defence. Marner has 90-100+ point upside and can PK as well. He costs a ton but he's also very good. Is he worth $5 AAV more than TT. No definitely not.

With Tavares v Trochek and Svech vs Nylander it's kind of hard to answer because both Tro and Svech need new contracts soon. If Svech signs for around what Willy got at $7AAV (which seems reasonable since he's not getting $8+) then I think you go with him moving forward. Tro has 1 more year a $4.75 and if he has another year like this one he'll get good money. Tavares money? Hell no. Tavares at $11 AAV for the next million years is an overpayment and misuse of the Leafs cap. When you have AM as your 1C you don't need Tavares as your 2C and you certainly don't need to be paying them both $11+.

Value wise the Canes contracts are much much better and they still produce really well. Not elite like the Leafs but maybe maybe the production difference is like 15% whereas the cost difference right now is 50%. Moving forward that gaps closes. For Seattle in this scenario, there's really wrong answer. Elite talent is hard get but you have to pay for it. Great players on great contracts are hard to get as well and the extra cap space can set your team up for a long long time.

You can argue it either way but obviously there are some non-negotiable facts involved as well.

TLDR; Go with the Canes 4

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

LOL. Oh the ego.

Have nice Wednesday, Big Head.

Oh, is it Wednesday as well in the reality that you live in? That's a funny coincidence I guess.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Oh, is it Wednesday as well in the reality that you live in? That's a funny coincidence I guess.

Hopefully by the weekend, you'll have learned something about the game of hockey.

 

[CatchyTune]

He was really only posting that because Holy Makinut posted that Muzzin and Brodie were 'just as good as Slavin and Pesce'.

I guess the point is with Seattle taking the Canes 4 and the added cap is that they COULD theoretically fill out the roster with good surrounding players and a great defence. Whether they are able to is another story and one that you can't really answer. However, if they take the Leafs 4 players and use up half their cap on that then there's no conceivable way they can have a balanced roster.



I think it's fair to break things down like this. Each position should be measured against each other.

CANES
Aho = 1C
TT = 1W
Trochek = 2C
Svech = 1/2W

LEAFS
Matthews = 1C
Marner = 1W
Tavares = 2C
Nylander = 1/2 W

If we base it solely on play this year then I think you rate them like this...

Matthews > Aho
Marner > TT
Tavares = Trochek
Nylander = Svech

You can make argument Tavares over Tro or Tro over Tavares. You can make an argument for Willy over Svech or Svech over Willy. Moving forward I think everyone takes Svech as a player and I really don't know about Tro vs Tavares. If this year is how the next few play out then they're probably even. Trochek has been phenomenal for the Canes I can tell you that.

If you bring contracts into the debate it gets much muddier.

No one is going to touch Matthews in on ice talent. He's a top 3-5 player in the league and you could argue higher if you want. He costs a ton but he's worth it. Aho is great but he is not going to be on that level. Is the difference in value $3.2 AAV? I don't know.

TT is never going to be the point producer that Marner is either. TT is a great 70-80 point player, maybe ppg, who plays excellent defence. Marner has 90-100+ point upside and can PK as well. He costs a ton but he's also very good. Is he worth $5 AAV more than TT. No definitely not.

With Tavares v Trochek and Svech vs Nylander it's kind of hard to answer because both Tro and Svech need new contracts soon. If Svech signs for around what Willy got at $7AAV (which seems reasonable since he's not getting $8+) then I think you go with him moving forward. Tro has 1 more year a $4.75 and if he has another year like this one he'll get good money. Tavares money? Hell no. Tavares at $11 AAV for the next million years is an overpayment and misuse of the Leafs cap. When you have AM as your 1C you don't need Tavares as your 2C and you certainly don't need to be paying them both $11+.

Value wise the Canes contracts are much much better and they still produce really well. Not elite like the Leafs but maybe maybe the production difference is like 15% whereas the cost difference right now is 50%. Moving forward that gaps closes. For Seattle in this scenario, there's really wrong answer. Elite talent is hard get but you have to pay for it. Great players on great contracts are hard to get as well and the extra cap space can set your team up for a long long time.

You can argue it either way but obviously there are some non-negotiable facts involved as well.

TLDR; Go with the Canes 4

Thanks for the in depth post. i think you comparing them 1 to 1 makes it look a lot closer than it is. there is a considerable gap between Matthews and anyone, and there will be a gap between Marner and Carolina's 2nd best.

The weirdest one to me is Tavares and Trochek. Trochek is obviously having a really good year, but would i really take him over Tavares? no, but looking at production, at least this year, i cant say it isnt relatively close.

if you want to zero in on Nylander and Svechnikov, i dont doubt that Svech is a better asset and will develop into being better than Nylander as soon as next year, but right at this moment i cant say Nylander is the worse player. although it is close and i am interested to see what Svech's next contract will look like.

i think whatever gap there may be in value between those 2 matchups is made up for in the gap between Matthews/Marner and anyone else. the top end talent is what makes Toronto's group for me.

also when talking about Carolina having money tied up in these guys, is the possibility of them moving 1 or more considered? they arent stuck with them forever. they should just take them for having higher value and work it out from there. Matthews wouldnt go anywhere but they could move Marner/Nylander for a great haul if they wanted, that could bring them cap space and depth for the rest of the roster.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Thanks for the in depth post. i think you comparing them 1 to 1 makes it look a lot closer than it is. there is a considerable gap between Matthews and anyone, and there will be a gap between Marner and Carolina's 2nd best.

The weirdest one to me is Tavares and Trochek. Trochek is obviously having a really good year, but would i really take him over Tavares? no, but looking at production, at least this year, i cant say it isnt relatively close.

if you want to zero in on Nylander and Svechnikov, i dont doubt that Svech is a better asset and will develop into being better than Nylander as soon as next year, but right at this moment i cant say Nylander is the worse player. although it is close and i am interested to see what Svech's next contract will look like.

i think whatever gap there may be in value between those 2 matchups is made up for in the gap between Matthews/Marner and anyone else. the top end talent is what makes Toronto's group for me.

also when talking about Carolina having money tied up in these guys, is the possibility of them moving 1 or more considered? they arent stuck with them forever. they should just take them for having higher value and work it out from there. Matthews wouldnt go anywhere but they could move Marner/Nylander for a great haul if they wanted, that could bring them cap space and depth for the rest of the roster.

I compare them 1 to 1 that way because I’m assuming that’s the intention of the OP. Maybe I’m wrong but comparing the top 2C’s and the top two wingers. It wouldn’t make sense to compare Matthews to TT or Aho to Nylander.

Agree that Matthews is in a tier of his own. He’s better than Aho or anyone else on the Canes but for the sake of comparing 1C to 1C I did it that way. I don’t know how many >>> makes the comparison apt but I’m just leaving it as Aho is a very good 1C and Matthews is considerably better than that.

I would say this year Trochek is 100% at Tavares level if not higher. He’s been a beast on the PP, defensively, scoring goals, getting under the other teams skin, and he does it with whoever Rod has paired with him.

If you wanted to get all goofy and switch things around to favour the Canes more in the head to head you could do this.

Aho > Tavares
TT > Nylander (although this year TT has only played a handful of games but you get the idea)
Matthews > Trochek
Marner > Svech

That’s misleading though because it’s not slotting the players where they truly should be.

Anyway, each team probably likes their guys a lot. You can’t go wrong either way. I don’t think anyone should debate that the Leafs 4 aren’t better overall but when contracts are considered it gets murky for sure.

Doesn’t really matter because Seattle ain’t getting any of them.