Player Discussion Carey Price - Who's Your Daddy? Edition

[BLONG7]

Halak

This belongs in the comedy thread...do we have one of those? lol

 

[Apoplectic Habs Fan]

The narrative that Weber has skyrocketed his numbers makes sense, honestly.

The argument here isn't whether Price is good, though- he is. It's whether or not he's the best.

Now, he has been consistently good since November. I guess I worded my argument poorly and got sidetracked. What I meant to imply was that without fail, there is one or two goals each game that he COULD have back. His game isn't flawless, nor is anyone's and he does get tested often which makes for a bigger chance at those weak goals.

I'm curious- where do you find LDSV% and MDSV%? I've seen high danger (don't remember where) but ever since Corsica shut down I haven't been able to find those two. It seems to me that it's mid danger shots that he's letting up, that he shouldn't be.

So if Price could save 1 to 2 goals each game. If he could have back then you are saying he should have a 1 to 1.5 GAA. Oooo k

 

[Habs76]

Again though, look at last night's game. Three shots before they scored on him.

It's one thing to give up a shot in the slot it's a whole other deal to not help your goalie with rebounds or clearing the crease etc... It's not that easy to quantify.

I had a conversation with our resident stat head Talkstogoalposts a while back. He felt that the best stat we can use for goalies is probably save percentage at 5 on 5. At least then you're eliminating the noise of special teams.

I'll be honest on the Islanders, I don't think I've seen more than three of their games this year. But it's interesting that they from the worst netminding in the league to the best. No major changes on D but they have Barry Trotz there now. Is it coincidence or fluke? I don't know. But it's one season of data.

Is Kucherov having a better year than McDavid? Arguably so. Even with that though I don't think he's a better player than McDavid is.

The question posed to the players wasn't "who's having the best year" it was "who is the best goalie" and those are two very different things. Price got killed last year and players still felt he was the best goalie. Likely because they understood that he was behind a horrible team. And he came in third on the question of which player would you take in a must win game behind only McDavid and Crosby.


Sure. I'm just saying that the stats you provided here are variations on save percentage and come with the same problems.

Look at the Anaheim game as an example. Price lost three points off his save percentage from that game alone. That's absolutely crazy. Imagine if we took points away from skaters when their teams got killed.

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here, especially the first part: it's not easy to quantify and there is no perfect metric. But I think statistically, you can adjust things in multiple ways. Why not 5v5 xSV%? The issue of clearing the crease, rebounds, etc. might not be quantifiable but I would like to see someone take a stab at it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here, especially the first part: it's not easy to quantify and there is no perfect metric. But I think statistically, you can adjust things in multiple ways. Why not 5v5 xSV%? The issue of clearing the crease, rebounds, etc. might not be quantifiable but I would like to see someone take a stab at it.

There is 5 on 5 sv%. As TTGP was saying it's probably the best we have. But still, it's not going to account for a bad D.

If we're talking exclusively about Price though, he does so much back there. It's not just his netminding that's stellar it's his work with the puck. In the Philly game he was like a 3rd defenseman. Teams have to change their gameplans when they face us otherwise he just chucks the puck right back up the ice.

 

[thewall]

There is 5 on 5 sv%. As TTGP was saying it's probably the best we have. But still, it's not going to account for a bad D.

If we're talking exclusively about Price though, he does so much back there. It's not just his netminding that's stellar it's his work with the puck. In the Philly game he was like a 3rd defenseman. Teams have to change their gameplans when they face us otherwise he just chucks the puck right back up the ice.

That was my argument back in 2014 when Tokarski took over. He played well but NYR dumped and chase the puck all series. Banging our d and taking advantage of Price's injury. They csnt use that strategy with Carey in net because they would give away the puck to Habs.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That was my argument back in 2014 when Tokarski took over. He played well but NYR dumped and chase the puck all series. Banging our d and taking advantage of Price's injury. They csnt use that strategy with Carey in net because they would give away the puck to Habs.

That series is an excellent example of how much we missed that part of his game (nevermind his netminding skills.)

 

[japhi]

That series is an excellent example of how much we missed that part of his game (nevermind his netminding skills.)

Price doesn’t get hurt and we might have a Cup. Took the Rangers to 6 games with an AHL tender, put Price in and we win that series.

 

[ahmedou]

The constant fan's support touching it up directly on the bottom of his heart. Most often, I felt like he was in a circus. A clown or robot without any human being. Going to be humiliated by the sinful crowds or medias. He can’t react and do anything to stop it. It's uncontrollable in such an extent.

And it goes beyond the red line then after. Becoming a prisoner imprisoned abusively by his own peers. Living up with unconstructive criticisms and attacks on his dignity and honor. Thinking about it, it’s hardly hard to cash in and live with it on a daily basis. Intimidation exists wherever.

 

[Habs76]

There is 5 on 5 sv%. As TTGP was saying it's probably the best we have. But still, it's not going to account for a bad D.

If we're talking exclusively about Price though, he does so much back there. It's not just his netminding that's stellar it's his work with the puck. In the Philly game he was like a 3rd defenseman. Teams have to change their gameplans when they face us otherwise he just chucks the puck right back up the ice.

Not only is there no perfect metric but there's also no good way toaccount for what a goalie can do outside of simply making the saves.

For example:
How well does he retrieve dump-ins and help break his team out of the zone? (Price obviously does an amazing job of this, probably the best in the league.
Does he do a good job of minimizing quality rebounds?

I actually did see an analytic recently- Fenwick SV%- the idea being that bigger goalies as well as goalies with good angling skills who challenge the shooter will cause the shooter to miss the net more which is a positive and undervalued trait in goalies since it's tougher to recognize, so we're seeing improvement.

Now I'm sure teams and private companies out there do collect Breakout-% stats for goalies and the rebound thing is probably possible to track too at the very least in a similar manner to shot charting, by human judgement, but how do we decide how important these things are?

 

[Habsqqww]

Price doesn’t get hurt and we might have a Cup. Took the Rangers to 6 games with an AHL tender, put Price in and we win that series.

yeah and if this, and if that, and if this, and if that, the leafs would have beat us in 93 for the cup....blah blah blah,

the game isnt played with "if this would have happened" accept what happened and move on, because what your assuming didnt happen, so there isnt any point in discussing it,

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

yeah and if this, and if that, and if this, and if that, the leafs would have beat us in 93 for the cup....blah blah blah,

the game isnt played with "if this would have happened" accept what happened and move on, because what your assuming didnt happen, so there isnt any point in discussing it,

It's a discussion board. Perfectly fine to discuss it. Why wouldn't we?

And for the record, no doubt in my mind we beat the Rangers that year with Carey Price. LA? That would've been a tall order. But not impossible.

 

[Kotkaniemi15]

If Carey Price isn’t a Vezina finalist, I don’t what it takes.

 

[robicgi]

The Habs have been fortunate to have several superstar goalies over the years but since i became a habs fan almost 40 years ago i have never seen a goalie face as many high quality shots every game as Price does. Anyone who says he is not one of the top goalies in the world must not watch the games and only looks at the stat lines. He faces more high quality shots in a single period than most goalies face in a game and still somehow manages to post allstar numbers. Even early in the season i wouldnt put the losses on Price as the chances the team was hiving up were unreal. Every goalie will let an occasional soft goal in but when Price does he gets ripped even if he just stopped like 20 breakaways and 2 on 1s lol ..like wtf. Best goalie hands down right now in the league imo and if somehow over the second half of his career we can surround him with a cup caliber roster and he wins a cup or two then i would rank him as possibly the greatest habs goalie of all time. This is coming from a huge Roy fan back in the day and a lifelong fan who was fortunate enough to see Dryden and Roy play. Price is just that good.

 

[ahmedou]

If Carey Price isn’t a Vezina finalist, I don’t what it takes.

Collective awards ahead of individuals ones...

 

[googlymoogly]

Armia is a puck hogging beast he may not score much but he burns a lot of time up especially killing penalties.

 

[ahmedou]

We have yet another great in net. Difference will be quality of teams. He’ll never win a Stanley Cup in this political dumpster fire our team has become.

Bring back with u Genesis

 

[nhlfan9191]

Bring back with u Genesis

I’d rather not.

 

[ottawa]

Collective awards ahead of individuals ones...

Well the collective award isn't happening this year so I'll settle for the individual one

 

[Scintillating10]

So, how's your money goalie doing in these big games?

 

[nhlfan9191]

So, how's your money goalie doing in these big games?

If you’re a real Habs fan, you wouldn’t say “your” money goalie. He has a huge impact on the results of our team, which if you’re a fan should matter to you. Your posts indicate Price struggling means more to you then actual team success.

 

[BLONG7]

So, how's your money goalie doing in these big games?

The TEAM shat the bed last night............they got steamrolled by a bigger and faster team, and no way that game was on Price.

Haters gonna hate I guess.

Said it before, will say it again, Price is the very LEAST of our problems. We have so many issues, starting at the top, and moving down the entire organization.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So, how's your money goalie doing in these big games?

This is the kind of crap I was talking about earlier. Brutal how people so easily flip on the guy. We finally land HOF talent and we chase one guy out of town while bashing the other when we lose. And folks wonder why players shy away from Montreal when it's free agency time. It's because of crap like this.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Lol he actually made a lot of timely saves last night when the game was tight in the first and second. How many partial breaks and point blank slot shot glove saves did he make? Lol people blaming him are ridiculous and don’t watch games clearly. Was not that bad of a game by carey and the team got steamrolled

 

[Justin11]

Price is just not a big game goalie and won't be,

he isn't that guy who is going to elevate his game come playoff time and win a cup,

even somebody like MAF was able to do it behind a poor defense in Pitts,

heck even niemi was able to do it,

Price just crumbles under the pressure

When Price can't be the Savior, all the haters come out bashing him. These are the expectations of this fanbase "the goalie must be stellar". Having said that, IMO, Price is hurting the team by keeping the Habs mediocre and not allowing them to do a proper rebuild.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Price is just not a big game goalie and won't be,

he isn't that guy who is going to elevate his game come playoff time and win a cup,

even somebody like MAF was able to do it behind a poor defense in Pitts,

heck even niemi was able to do it,

Price just crumbles under the pressure

Fleury has the worst statistics out of any goalie who made a run to the Stanley Cup in the modern era. A .908 save percentage might win you a single game in the first round in Montreal. I think the only time Price has put up numbers resembling that is against Tampa in 14, and we were lucky enough to play Anders Lindback in that series with Bishop our due to injury.