Player Discussion Carey Price - Spring Savings Edition

[Clumsyhab]

I don't need to read about it. I saw it. I watched as we put this guy behind an AHL D and he lost his confidence. I remember him getting hurt later on as well.

That doesn't happen if we don't throw him behind trash. And as I said, his numbers were sub .900 for the first ten games next year as well. Then Weber came back and he was .925 the rest of the way.

You are screaming "look at his save percentage!!!" without taking anything into context at all.

OK, you are right. Price is still elite although every stats and ADVANCED STATS (since you want context) put him in the 3rd tier for starting goalies in the past 4 seasons.

In 183 games since 2017-18, Carey Price has a .909 save percentage and has a -38.6 goals saved above expected per
@EvolvingHockey

And btw, even without any stats, I think if you have some hockey knowledge and if you are being objective, you do know that Price is on a decline for the past few years and we would be lucky if he could just be an average #1 goalie (top 20 in the league) from now on.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

OK, you are right. Price is still elite although every stats and ADVANCED STATS (since you want context) put him in the 3rd tier for starting goalies in the past 4 seasons.

In 183 games since 2017-18, Carey Price has a .909 save percentage and has a -38.6 goals saved above expected per
@EvolvingHockey

And btw, even without any stats, I think if you have some hockey knowledge and if you are being objective, you do know that Price is on a decline for the past few years and we would be lucky if he could just be an average #1 goalie (top 20 in the league) from now on.

I have zero problem saying that 2018 was a terrible year. Said so many times and won't debate it. But there's good reason for it. It's not like he just forgot how to stop pucks all of a sudden.

The past two seasons though? He's been really good behind terrible teams.

You keep appealing to a stat that doesn't take into consideration shot difficulty and asking me why it's suddenly gone down. I give you the answers and you come back with "but his save percentage..."

 

[azcanuck]

Fleury didn’t single handedly take that Vegas team anywhere. They were extremely strong out of the gate. As for super fans, give me a break. I have no problem with criticizing Price. But when people go out of their way to twist things to create a false narrative the way you do, I call them out. Were you sitting on here drooling over Fleury just 5-6 months ago when Vegas was desperately trying to unload him for anything? You claim Fleury has done this and that, but by your logic, things can turn around quick as you keep using MA Fleury as an example as an older goalie who is playing well.

What false narrative do you claim I'm creating?

Fleury has been very good in his late thirties.

Price has been on a rapid decline and he's not even 35.

 

[Clumsyhab]

I have zero problem saying that 2018 was a terrible year. Said so many times and won't debate it. But there's good reason for it. It's not like he just forgot how to stop pucks all of a sudden.

The past two seasons though? He's been really good behind terrible teams.

You keep appealing to a stat that doesn't take into consideration shot difficulty and asking me why it's suddenly gone down. I give you the answers and you come back with "but his save percentage..."

Yes, in 2017-2018, he kinda just forgot how to stop pucks all of a sudden (he said it himself that he lost his confidence and it was all mental)

And no, I'm not referring to SV% only. I posted many times about ADVANCED STATS, which take in consideration "shot difficulty", but I guess you just don't wanna read about it because you know that you're wrong.

The reason why his stats have gone downhill and his play is not up to par anymore is because he's aging which is just normal. Just look at Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne in the last few seasons. Price is getting into that category of goalies.

I would be the happiest person if he proves me wrong and steal us a few games from time to time like he did earlier in his career.

Anyways, I'm done with you Lafleurs Guy. Good for you that you still consider Price is still elite, which I don't think he is.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes, in 2017-2018, he kinda just forgot how to stop pucks all of a sudden (he said it himself that he lost his confidence and it was all mental)

Well, what else was he going to say?

"Our D is AHL so..."

He said what he was supposed to say, not what was necessarily true.

And no, I'm not referring to SV% only. I posted many times about ADVANCED STATS, which take in consideration "shot difficulty", but I guess you just don't wanna read about it because you know that you're wrong.

I posted this earlier. If you're serious about this discussion have a read. He was a lot better last season than you think he was. And he was flat out great the season before behind a terrible team. We play the everliving crap out of him and give him the worst D in the league. Those numbers are very good considering. Read this and let me know what you think.

Carey Price Had an Amazing Season with the Montreal Canadiens.

The reason why his stats have gone downhill and his play is not up to par anymore is because he's aging which is just normal. Just look at Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne in the last few seasons. Price is getting into that category of goalies.

I would be the happiest person if he proves me wrong and steal us a few games from time to time like he did earlier in his career.

Anyways, I'm done with you Lafleurs Guy. Good for you that you still consider Price is still elite, which I don't think he is.

Hey, I won't excuse him for earlier this year. He was flat out bad, letting in soft goals. But it's a very small period of time over a number of years. He came back at .920 afterwards. Then he gets hurt. It's been an inconsistent year for sure but it was messed up anyway due to covid. I don't see a reason to think that he's lost it, particularly after the brilliant playoff run he just had.

One thing I hope you can at least agree with me on is this... we have done a horrible job putting a D in front of him for the past three years. How much that's affected his play is up for debate.

 

[Clumsyhab]

Well, what else was he going to say?

"Our D is AHL so..."

He said what he was supposed to say, not what was necessarily true.

I posted this earlier. If you're serious about this discussion have a read. He was a lot better last season than you think he was. And he was flat out great the season before behind a terrible team. We play the everliving crap out of him and give him the worst D in the league. Those numbers are very good considering. Read this and let me know what you think.

Carey Price Had an Amazing Season with the Montreal Canadiens.


Hey, I won't excuse him for earlier this year. He was flat out bad, letting in soft goals. But it's a very small period of time over a number of years. He came back at .920 afterwards. Then he gets hurt. It's been an inconsistent year for sure but it was messed up anyway due to covid. I don't see a reason to think that he's lost it, particularly after the brilliant playoff run he just had.

One thing I hope you can at least agree with me on is this... we have done a horrible job putting a D in front of him for the past three years. How much that's affected his play is up for debate.

Terrible team, AHL Defense, shot difficulty, fatigue, Injuries, Covid, stats/advanced stats out of context, Weber’s injury...

That’s a lot of excuses. If you still think Price is that great, you wouldn’t need to bring all theses excuses.

 

[River Meadow]

OK, you are right. Price is still elite although every stats and ADVANCED STATS (since you want context) put him in the 3rd tier for starting goalies in the past 4 seasons.

In 183 games since 2017-18, Carey Price has a .909 save percentage and has a -38.6 goals saved above expected per
@EvolvingHockey

And btw, even without any stats, I think if you have some hockey knowledge and if you are being objective, you do know that Price is on a decline for the past few years and we would be lucky if he could just be an average #1 goalie (top 20 in the league) from now on.

Terrible team, AHL Defense, shot difficulty, fatigue, Injuries, Covid, stats/advanced stats out of context, Weber’s injury...

That’s a lot of excuses. If you still think Price is that great, you wouldn’t need to bring all theses excuses.

Right.

Price should be the great equalizer if he was that great.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Terrible team, AHL Defense, shot difficulty, fatigue, Injuries, Covid, stats/advanced stats out of context, Weber’s injury...

That’s a lot of excuses. If you still think Price is that great, you wouldn’t need to bring all theses excuses.

A one liner and sarcasm. I'm disappointed. I thought you were going to come back with something interesting and relevant. And I mean that sincerely.

Carey on.

Yes.

The seasons you appear to be referring to (because everything else is great stat wise) are very small sample size of 4 games each, a lot of which Price didn't play all of. If you can't remember those series let me jog your memory:

2008-09 We got swept be the best team in the league with are two top defenseman injured. Price was still fairly young.

2009-10 Deceptive 4GP stat here, TOI wise he only played two games, far too small of a sample size to argue with. This was the year the we had the run with Halak in net.

2012-13 Another 4GP here, Price had teeth knocked out after getting hit in the face with a skate and then suffered a groin injury and likely continued playing with it before he sat out the rest of the playoffs for Peter Budaj who had 9.00GAA, 65.2 SV% for comparison.

In 2013 we were actually up in game six when Price got hurt. The backup came in and we lost that game afterwards.

 

[Not The One]

Did you actually watch those? Markov got hurt just before the playoffs and the Bruins absolutely crushed us. That was not on the goalie at all. It was the most embarrassing playoff I can remember us playing.

From 2011 onward he's been excellent in the playoffs. Moreover, he's actually had upsets over teams that we were never supposed to beat. Boston in 2014 and last year against the Pens. We also came within a game 7 OT goal of beating the eventual cup champs in 2011. He's been a great playoff goalie.

The sad reality is that we had a really good core of young players that we completely flushed. MB came in at the absolute worst time. First we couldn't get a center (despite having better choices in the actual lineup) and then we left a huge hole on the D for four years. It's atrocious how we've been run.


McDavid is hands down the best player in the world and hasn't even been able to get his team into the playoffs. It's not a reflection of his abilities. Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic, Gretzky... none of these guys could win unless they were on great teams. When they weren't, they won zero.

Price took mediocre teams to first place finishes. And he's managed to keep terrible teams within striking distance of a playoff berth. But his teams have actually gotten worse as time has gone on. Once we put a bunch of scrubs on the left side, that was it. No way he could put up the numbers he did.

If he's traded to a decent team or if we ever get off our ass to get a decent blueline, his numbers will jump. But he's getting older and time is running out. It's completely stupid to have signed him to that deal and then pulled the team out from under him. Why bother? If you're going to do that then trade him and rebuild. Instead, our GM just figured Price was all he needed. And even now, with a great offseason of sleeper pickups, he STILL didn't think to beef up the D. And now Weber has gone downhill. It's the same situation as we had back in 207-18. Brutal.

McDavid hasn't been able to carry the Oilers but not skater can do that by himself (as you stated). However, his play and his stats are objectively fantastic. Price's stats and his play on the ice have been objectively mediocre for years, except for his 10 game playoff run last year.

How convenient that you seemingly blame Bergevin "messing up" everything while ignoring how putrid the team was and how badly run it was in the years before he took over.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Terrible team, AHL Defense, shot difficulty, fatigue, Injuries, Covid, stats/advanced stats out of context, Weber’s injury...

That’s a lot of excuses. If you still think Price is that great, you wouldn’t need to bring all theses excuses.

Do you think team Canada picks a different starter than Price for the next Olympics? I feel like the NHL players have more confidence in Price than our fan base. His performance and stats are not where it should be and that's 100% fair. What are the reasons? I'm not believing it's because of his age. I think it's a confidence thing and he needs a change to be honest

 

[Not The One]

Unpopular opinion warning:

My thought at the time of the Price/Halak debate was that we should keep Halak and trade Price, because at the time Halak was much more consistant and Price would bring back so much more in a trade.

It's been more than ten years since then and Price made me eat my words a few times over the years, but I still think in retrospect than trading him then for a young no.1 center (ex: Kopitar) would have been the best choice.

 

[themilosh]

CP accepted his salary. When a goalie is paid that much theyre going to get an AHL defence. No different when a QB accepts the max - they have no oline for protection.
Except guys like Tom Brady figured this out early. Took salary cuts to remain the best, and go down as GOAT.

No goalie is worth more than $5M/yr.

 

[Clumsyhab]

Do you think team Canada picks a different starter than Price for the next Olympics? I feel like the NHL players have more confidence in Price than our fan base. His performance and stats are not where it should be and that's 100% fair. What are the reasons? I'm not believing it's because of his age. I think it's a confidence thing and he needs a change to be honest

I think that he will be on the team, but Canada doesn’t have the best goalies as they once did. Also, I think that he will be picked mostly on reputation/experience with team Canada. I remember back in the day, Patrick Roy rarely gets the call for international events. Weber might even get the call, do you think he’s among the best Canadian defenseman?

 

[azcanuck]

OK, you are right. Price is still elite although every stats and ADVANCED STATS (since you want context) put him in the 3rd tier for starting goalies in the past 4 seasons.

In 183 games since 2017-18, Carey Price has a .909 save percentage and has a -38.6 goals saved above expected per
@EvolvingHockey

And btw, even without any stats, I think if you have some hockey knowledge and if you are being objective, you do know that Price is on a decline for the past few years and we would be lucky if he could just be an average #1 goalie (top 20 in the league) from now on.

It doesnt matter how much objectivity you give them. They say "But...but...but...the difficult shots".

Well check these stats out. He's terrible on "difficult shots'

Over the past three seasons, 77 goalies have logged 1,000-plus minutes at 5-on-5. Among that group, Price ranks 39th in save percentage; 41st in goals saved above average per 60 minutes; 54th in high-danger SP; 53rd in medium-danger SP; and 32nd in low-danger SP. Diving down to the deepest part of the analytics ocean reveals metrics such as shot location that indicate Price was actually quite good in 2018-19, but if you look at the larger three-year sample, the stats would suggest he barely grades out as a league-average goalie despite the NHLPA picking him as the world’s No. 1 every time.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think that he will be on the team, but Canada doesn’t have the best goalies as they once did. Also, I think that he will be picked mostly on reputation/experience with team Canada. I remember back in the day, Patrick Roy rarely gets the call for international events. Weber might even get the call, do you think he’s among the best Canadian defenseman?

I don't think Weber makes this team. Might be an invite though

Canada doesn't have a stock pile of goalies yes but I still feel the NHL players trust in his ability more than our fan base. I really do think he needs a change and out of Montreal. I'm not so sure his stats and performance is age related

 

[Archijerej]

It's been more than ten years since then and Price made me eat my words a few times over the years, but I still think in retrospect than trading him then for a young no.1 center (ex: Kopitar) would have been the best choice.

You can't call a scenario, that's entirely a product of your imagination, "the best choice". No such choice ever existed.

There was never any possibility of trading Price for Kopitar. #1 centers are never traded for goalies.

As much as we're disappointed with Price, there's no need to project this feeling into the past. He was a fantastic player and there was nothing wrong in trying to build around him, provided we would have done it properly.

It's both surprising and disappointing he wasn't able to maintain his prime at least throughout his mid-30s. He should have been able to, having such excellent fundamentals.

 

[BLONG7]

CP accepted his salary. When a goalie is paid that much theyre going to get an AHL defence. No different when a QB accepts the max - they have no oline for protection.
Except guys like Tom Brady figured this out early. Took salary cuts to remain the best, and go down as GOAT.

No goalie is worth more than $5M/yr.

Price's salary has never hindered us to do what we need to do..................we routinely left 8-9M on the table for a cap situation. This was the first year we were a cap team, and that's only because of Alzner and his 4M on a buyout....
It's not on Price, but Bergevin to fix the left side of the D, that has been a mess for 4 years...............we still have not replaced MArkov for god's sake....
Price has always been the least of our worries..............our D is awful most nights, and we have zero Elite talent up front.
The team has been built poorly year over year....

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

McDavid hasn't been able to carry the Oilers but not skater can do that by himself (as you stated). However, his play and his stats are objectively fantastic. Price's stats and his play on the ice have been objectively mediocre for years, except for his 10 game playoff run last year.

The stats for skaters and goalies are very different though. McDavid doesn't lose a goal or assist total when his defenseman gives the puck away in his own zone resulting in a goal. That's not the case for goalies. We don't count great saves as a stat. We don't count number of goals caused by your blueline being stupid as a stat either.

How convenient that you seemingly blame Bergevin "messing up" everything while ignoring how putrid the team was and how badly run it was in the years before he took over.

This discussion is on Carey Price, not Rejean Houle vs MB. If you want to discuss that, go to the Bergevin thread.

It wasn't Rejean Houle who let the D walk away and brought in guys like Alzner, Benn and Mete to replace Andrei Markov. If it was, then I'd bring him up too.

 

[Not The One]

You can't call a scenario, that's entirely a product of your imagination, "the best choice". No such choice ever existed.

There was never any possibility of trading Price for Kopitar. #1 centers are never traded for goalies.

As much as we're disappointed with Price, there's no need to project this feeling into the past. He was a fantastic player and there was nothing wrong in trying to build around him, provided we would have done it properly.

It's both surprising and disappointing he wasn't able to maintain his prime at least throughout his mid-30s. He should have been able to, having such excellent fundamentals.

If you were there you must remember that there were several rumors at the time saying that Price was highly valued around the league. I remember Kopitar being mentioned as a possibility.

Regardless, we're all talking about imaginary scenarios here, especially for those who think Price is still a top goalie.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Unpopular opinion warning:

My thought at the time of the Price/Halak debate was that we should keep Halak and trade Price, because at the time Halak was much more consistant and Price would bring back so much more in a trade.

It's been more than ten years since then and Price made me eat my words a few times over the years, but I still think in retrospect than trading him then for a young no.1 center (ex: Kopitar) would have been the best choice.

It wasn't.

Price was the best player in the league in 2015 and was on his way to another Hart the following year. He got hurt at the worst possible time and it robbed him of a great season. From 2011 to 2017 Price is top ten for Vezina 5 out of 7 years. One season he's injured and the other Markov was hurt and we were (as usual) one of the worst teams in the league. If he's healthy in 2016, at a minimum he'd have been in the top ten for Vezina finishes and given his insanely hot start, it's very likely he wins it. The year afterwards he won ten straight to start the year. The guy was a machine... until we put an AHL D in front of him. With Weber being hurt and Markov being dumped, he got crushed. Karl Alzner and a bunch of scrubs... No way to fix that. And it was that way until Weber came back the following year. Over that time we really only had two quality NHL blueliners in the lineup with one being hurt a lot of the time. We f***ing destroyed his numbers.

As for getting a center. We had one. We just decided to play DD ahead of him. Moreover, if we didn't believe in Galchenyuk, we simply could've traded him. He had a 30 goal season at age 21 or 22 or whatever... he had tons of trade value and we could've gotten something for him. There was no need to trade Price or Subban or Max for a center... we could've gotten a center some other way. But our GM came out and said "trades are hard" and we put our best offensive center on the 3rd line playing wing.

 

[Not The One]

The stats for skaters and goalies are very different though. He doesn't lose a goal or assist total when his defenseman gives the puck away in his own zone resulting in a goal. That's not the case for goalies.

This discussion is on Carey Price, not Rejean Houle vs MB. If you want to discuss that, go to the Bergevin thread.

It wasn't Rejean Houle who let the D walk away and brought in guys like Alzner, Benn and Mete to replace Andrei Markov. If it was, then I'd bring him up too.

If you think a 39 year-old Markov would have made a difference between Price being great and being as bad as he was that season you must have a lower opinion of Price than I do.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If you think a 39 year-old Markov would have made a difference between Price being great and being as bad as he was that season you must have a lower opinion of Price than I do.

You are missing the point. Markov DID need replacing. It likely would've been a gong show with him there too. But we never did it. We put scrubs in the lineup and it killed us.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You can't call a scenario, that's entirely a product of your imagination, "the best choice". No such choice ever existed.

There was never any possibility of trading Price for Kopitar. #1 centers are never traded for goalies.

As much as we're disappointed with Price, there's no need to project this feeling into the past. He was a fantastic player and there was nothing wrong in trying to build around him, provided we would have done it properly.

It's both surprising and disappointing he wasn't able to maintain his prime at least throughout his mid-30s. He should have been able to, having such excellent fundamentals.

Right. But not for the reason that you think. That's because dominant in their prime goalies are never dealt. They are too valuable. The only time it's happened is in weird situations like Patrick Roy wanting out. Teams won't trade away dominant goalies... they'd be stupid to.

As for this situation, the Kings were a great team top to bottom. They had Quick, Kopitar and Doughty. They were the best defensive team in the league for years and won cups. Why would they make any kind of trade? It would've made no sense for them or us.

Again, there's just no reason to give up a star player when you don't have to. The idea is to improve your team. Trading away Price would've made no sense at all. Trading away Galchenyuk and a pick would've though. Then we would've had an A1 center, Price and Subban. Then all of a sudden we're a much better team. Totally stupid to give one of those pieces away. No reason to do so.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Unpopular opinion warning:

My thought at the time of the Price/Halak debate was that we should keep Halak and trade Price, because at the time Halak was much more consistant and Price would bring back so much more in a trade.

It's been more than ten years since then and Price made me eat my words a few times over the years, but I still think in retrospect than trading him then for a young no.1 center (ex: Kopitar) would have been the best choice.

I had that same opinion as long as you could actually get more in return. That's the question though... we can assume so but what would Carter Hart get today in a trade? I'm not so sure any team gives you a Suzuki or KK type of asset for a goalie (even if that goalie has great potential).

What are we talking here? 25% or 50% more value than what we got for Halak? Hard to say for sure but I don't believe we would have gotten a gold mine for Price back when. For all we know, they tried and realized that it was best to trade Halak cause the offers were low for Price

 

[azcanuck]

Both of our goalies play in front of the same defense.

Allen is 6th in the league in saves above expected.

Price is 20th.