Car 52, Where Are You? Mike Green, Pt. 3

[txpd]

It's what Blades said. Green has not been needed on PP #1. BCF I think quoted stats from last year, where the difference between PP effectiveness with Carlson vs. with Green is like 0.1%. And it's pretty clear why that might be. The way the Caps PP is set up now, all the D man has to do is get the puck to Ovi when he's open, or send it back to the other half boards, or blast it on net. Since Carlson has been getting better at passing to Ovi, there's not much opportunity for Green to shine there, even if individually, he's a more talented offensive player. However, on PP2, he gets a lot more room (even if limited time) to use his abilities in Ovi's spot -- because there he gets to walk in and maybe use his accurate wrister or pull a move that Carlson wouldn't be able to do.

I think that's big reason why Green is not on PP #1. In this diamond formation, the D man's job is pretty simple, and so your marginal return on extra talent there is very low, i.e. you don't need a fantastic PP QB there -- a decent one will do almost as good.

That's fine. the leading pp producer on pp2 has 2 points. they don't score much and in almost every case have half or less average pp toi than the 1st unit.

justify it however you want. my point is simply that if green is playing on average 30 seconds of pp time, he wont be resigned.

 

[artilector]

That's fine. the leading pp producer on pp2 has 2 points. they don't score much and in almost every case have half or less average pp toi than the 1st unit.

justify it however you want. my point is simply that if green is playing on average 30 seconds of pp time, he wont be resigned.

While I don't think it's a sufficient condition for Green not getting resigned, I agree that it is supporting evidence.

 

[txpd]

my position this off season was that if green was the caps primary offensive defenseman and among the leaders in scoring from defense league wide that they would not trade him at the deadline. in fact that they would resign him.

so...here we are. the is leading the team in scoring and is leading or second in the league in defense scoring catagories. with that, he is not getting pp ice time and maclellan is saying that the team is going to let it play out.

sounds a lot like they have decided to get all they can out of him but not give him prime minutes and rely on him

 

[BobRouse]

Things can change.

The philosophy at the begining of the season may very well have been to ween themselves off of Green.

But if Green sustains his stellar play then I suspect a new vision will emerge. Things are fluid and dynamic.

At one point Bondra was on his way out. He didn't want to be here based on how Wilson was using him. He nixed a trade to Montreal and then had a great season. Big contract awarded.

At one point Kolzig was an afterthought inconsistent goalie in his mid 20s. He was even offered in the Oates/Tocchet deal but the Bs took the Carey option.

Next year Ranford got injured the first game and Kolzig became our starter for the next 7 years or so.

There are lots of examples of this from other teams.

 

[txpd]

oh...I know things can change. but lets be honest. when your team's leading scorer isn't on the 1st pp unit on a team where the 2nd unit doesn't play much, its an odd situation at the least. add to that the team is a high enough scoring team that leading the team also puts him at or near the lead in every offensive category for defensemen....except power play points.

 

[BobRouse]

oh...I know things can change. but lets be honest. when your team's leading scorer isn't on the 1st pp unit on a team where the 2nd unit doesn't play much, its an odd situation at the least. add to that the team is a high enough scoring team that leading the team also puts him at or near the lead in every offensive category for defensemen....except power play points.

In fairness we haven't gotten many PP opportunities (at least full ones) on that 3 game road trip. There was some serious canadian home cooking.

Green keeps playing like this then things will change. Trotz has shown he isn't the least bit concered about maintaining the status quo.

 

[ChibiPooky]

In fairness we haven't gotten many PP opportunities (at least full ones) on that 3 game road trip. There was some serious canadian home cooking.

Green keeps playing like this then things will change. Trotz has shown he isn't the least bit concered about maintaining the status quo.

Power plays were even the first two games of the road trip (though I think WSH had a couple that were like 10 seconds long due to penalties the other team committed during their own power play).

 

[BobRouse]

Power plays were even the first two games of the road trip (though I think WSH had a couple that were like 10 seconds long due to penalties the other team committed during their own power play).

Right ..on paper.

In that Calgary game we should have had half a dozen. The obvious double minor high stick on MJ where he was bleeding, the slew foot on Brouwer, how did Bollig get 2 minutes for roughing along with Orpik when Bollig dropped his gloves and just punched away at Orpiks face?? He should have had 7 mins in penalties there. Refs holding Fehr back while Glencross punches him in the face a bunch. Glencross got kicked out but I don't recall an additional PP after the slash on Backstrom.

Either way...even if the first two games were even there weren't many PP opportunities to get Green out there. Abbreviated PPs basically give no chance for the 2nd unit to get time on those.

 

[Langway]

@alex_prewitt: Mike Green working at the point of PP1. Carlson/Niskanen the two defensemen on PP2. Looks like Green and Carlson flipped.

ZOMG. Organizational sea change.

 

[BobRouse]

@alex_prewitt: Mike Green working at the point of PP1. Carlson/Niskanen the two defensemen on PP2. Looks like Green and Carlson flipped.

ZOMG. Organizational sea change.

Based on Trotz's style this was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

[BobRouse]

Phase one: Green seems healthy
Phase two: Green plays exceptionally well thus not addition by subtraction
Phase three: Green gets promoted thus the 5/6 dman minutes argument goes bye

If Green continues this play the HatOrs will find their arguments shrinking when it comes to the whole resign/trade/let walk thing:

1. But he will get hurt and has an injury history! (even tho he may play the rest of the games)
2. He's not worth the money! (even tho he maybe a Norris contender)
3. He rides a vespa and has tatoos!! (strongest argument to date)

 

[Blades of Steel]

Phase one: Green seems healthy
Phase two: Green plays exceptionally well thus not addition by subtraction
Phase three: Green gets promoted thus the 5/6 dman minutes argument goes bye

If Green continues this play the HatOrs will find their arguments shrinking when it comes to the whole resign/trade/let walk thing:

1. But he will get hurt and has an injury history! (even tho he may play the rest of the games)
2. He's not worth the money! (even tho he maybe a Norris contender)
3. He rides a vespa and has tatoos!! (strongest argument to date)

I honestly like where Green is at this season, but i'm also fine with that PP1 switch. I am curious to see when Orlov comes back if he comes into the lineup, Schmidt has played well.

 

[BobRouse]

I honestly like where Green is at this season, but i'm also fine with that PP1 switch. I am curious to see when Orlov comes back if he comes into the lineup, Schmidt has played well.

The Schmidt/Orlov situation will be interesting to monitor.

I just feel Orlov has another level that Schmidt does not possess and is a more dynamic and physical player. Schmidt is very solid tho.

Green+Orlov > Green+Schmidt IMO

 

[ChibiPooky]

The Mike Green PP watch is officially on, then. He just needs 2 more power play goals to pass Gonchar for #1 all-time in the franchise.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

The Mike Green PP watch is officially on, then. He just needs 2 more power play goals to pass Gonchar for #1 all-time in the franchise.

Sergei Gonchar - 654 career RS games with the Caps

Mike Green- 510 career RS games with the Caps

Pretty damn impressive - especially given Green's 50ish game demotion from the main PP unit and a couple of garbage years.

 

[MrGone]

Lets say the team resigns Mike Green for 7x5.

What do they do with Bowey, Carrick, Djoos, Orlov, Schmidt and Way?

Who will be the next Cody Eakin?

If we can get past Mike Greens health concerns. And the fact that he did not try for the past two years. The team is giving up open spots for guys that can become nice cost controlled options. And that will be big down the road.

What is Holtby is not the answer? It will be 5-6mill to get someone that is.

Having another 7mill player on D and blocking what is the strongest area of the prospect pool. May not be the best move. And it sure is not the best way to try to bring in a 1RW. It could be a future with little flexibility.

 

[ChibiPooky]

I don't see that at all. Trotz is tied to the team for the forseeable future and Green seems to be playing well under him and in his system. If he's hurt, he's on LTIR and his salary doesn't have a huge impact. So I don't see a big risk of him sucking or the team being limited if he gets hurt.

 

[MrGone]

I don't see that at all. Trotz is tied to the team for the forseeable future and Green seems to be playing well under him and in his system. If he's hurt, he's on LTIR and his salary doesn't have a huge impact. So I don't see a big risk of him sucking or the team being limited if he gets hurt.

That is a vary short sided view of things. In terms of dollars that makes some sense. As far as putting a team on the ice it way off. Look how good its working out for the Flyers. How long have they been looking to fill Pronger skates? Just because you have the caps space does not mean you can fill the spot.

 

[ChibiPooky]

That is a vary short sided view of things. In terms of dollars that makes some sense. As far as putting a team on the ice it way off. Look how good its working out for the Flyers. How long have they been looking to fill Pronger skates? Just because you have the caps space does not mean you can fill the spot.

The Flyers didn't have Carlson and Niskanen signed for the next four years at the same position. Third pair D can be filled easily.

Also, are you actually arguing against signing good players because they might get injured and leave the team... exactly where it was before they signed the player?

 

[MrGone]

The Flyers didn't have Carlson and Niskanen signed for the next four years at the same position. Third pair D can be filled easily.

Also, are you actually arguing against signing good players because they might get injured and leave the team... exactly where it was before they signed the player?

I am talking about smart roster management. Mike Green does not come without his red flags. And like you said the team has "Carlson and Niskanen signed for the next four years" And they also have Madison Bowey and Connor Carrick close to ready to step up. If you want to win in the NHL you have to have cost controlled player that contribute.

Maybe we can go with OV - Nick - Bowey/Carrick? Well that will not work lets trade them for a $5.5mill top six player. So out the goes the cost controlled players.

I don't expect you to understand this. Seeing you watch the game from the box score. And think current point is a true refection of a players value.

Wheeler wouldn't be available anyway, but since Burakovsky is currently outscoring Wheeler overall and at even strength, it'd have to be no deal. Giving up the player who is scoring more is not how to fix an offense

 

[um]

Are you honestly trying to use guys that have never played (well) in the nhl as reason to get rid of Green. It's not against the rules to several good defensemen, seems to work for the cup winners. Don't get to exited about our shiny new toy, bowey, orlov, and carrick aren't that good. And they won't bring in as much as Green and they probably won't ever be as good as him. Before you say it's to much to spend on the third pairing i'd point out green's ice time, he's clearly being used as more than that.

i get not concerns over keeping green with his injuries, his cap, spending to much on defense, and son on. But the getting in the way of young players argument is ridiculous. maybe if we had ekblad it would make sense, but we don't.

 

[MrGone]

Are you honestly trying to use guys that have never played (well) in the nhl as reason to get rid of Green. It's not against the rules to several good defensemen, seems to work for the cup winners. Don't get to exited about our shiny new toy, bowey, orlov, and carrick aren't that good. And they won't bring in as much as Green and they probably won't ever be as good as him. Before you say it's to much to spend on the third pairing i'd point out green's ice time, he's clearly being used as more than that.

i get not concerns over keeping green with his injuries, his cap, spending to much on defense, and son on. But the getting in the way of young players argument is ridiculous. maybe if we had ekblad it would make sense, but we don't.

I don't understand you guys inability to see the big picture. None of it is the reason but all of it is part of the reason.

Edit: How long does Mike Green have to play well at his sheltered minuets to make up for the past three years?

 

[ChibiPooky]

I am talking about smart roster management. Mike Green does not come without his red flags. And like you said the team has "Carlson and Niskanen signed for the next four years" And they also have Madison Bowey and Connor Carrick close to ready to step up. If you want to win in the NHL you have to have cost controlled player that contribute.

Maybe we can go with OV - Nick - Bowey/Carrick? Well that will not work lets trade them for a $5.5mill top six player. So out the goes the cost controlled players.

You're not talking about smart roster management. You're talking about not signing Mike Green because he might be injured and force the Caps to have to fill a roster spot. Except that not signing Mike Green forces the Caps to fill that roster spot anyway. You are literally contradicting yourself.

Here are the scenarios:
1) The Capitals sign Mike Green to a contract extending beyond that of Carlson and Niskanen. They have to fill 6D and 7D, and have roughly $4M left to do so to fit the D in below 40% of the salary cap.

2) The Capitals do not sign Mike Green. They have to fill 5D, 6D, and 7D, and have roughly $11M left to do so to fit the D below 40% of the salary cap.

In scenario 2, the one you advocate, they are left having to fill an extra D spot, which is the reason you say Green shouldn't be signed.

I don't expect you to understand this. Seeing you watch the game from the box score. And think current point is a true refection of a players value.

You may want to go back and re-read what I posted. I didn't say anything about the player's value. It is, however, a direct reflection of his offensive contribution. Since the trade for Wheeler would be to improve the offense, I feel that it's foolish to trade away someone who is contributing more to the offense than the player who would be acquired.

You've clearly proven that out of the two of us, you're the one who doesn't understand. You don't understand what I'm saying, and you don't even understand what you're saying.

 

[ChibiPooky]

I don't understand you guys inability to see the big picture. None of it is the reason but all of it is part of the reason.

Edit: How long does Mike Green have to play well at his sheltered minuets to make up for the past three years?

What is the big picture? That having four good defensemen is better than having five good defensemen?

 

[strungout]

Math!