Post-Game Talk: caps @ rags 3:00PM 3/29/15 | Caps beat the refs and the rags. 5-2. 2 points

[sycamore]

Whipping boy.

Orpik was like that the last few years with Pens. Letang too.

Green and guys like MJ and Brouwer here.


Each team will always have a set of whipping boys. Fans get spoiled by what a certain player brings and then only look at his defeciencies over time.

God do you remember when we had Schultz on this team?

 

[BobRouse]

God do you remember when we had Schultz on this team?

You can add Semin and Flash too.

The universal law is there must be at least 3 whipping boys at any given time for any team according to the majority of the fanbase.

More rational and even tempered Rangers fans would understand what they have with McDonagh and know that players go through good and bad games, weeks, months and years.

More often than not its the "addition by subtraction" argument. Girardi, Glass and a few others fit that bill for their team right now.

 

[troyerlaw]

The universal law is there must be at least 3 whipping boys at any given time for any team according to the majority of the fanbase.

Remember when we had Larry Murphy?

We were merciless with that guy. Told him how bad he sucked every chance we got.

But we got a less of a chance later on, when he got traded away, won 4 Cups, climbed to 5th all-time in D-man scoring, and was inducted into HHOF.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

In defense of the Rangers fans, McD has been a shell of his former self this year. The Rangers have a terrific defense on paper. On the ice, only Dan Boyle has a CF% over 50. How is that possible?

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

In defense of the Rangers fans, McD has been a shell of his former self this year. The Rangers have a terrific defense on paper. On the ice, only Dan Boyle has a CF% over 50. How is that possible?

Could it be possible (and I know this is going to sound crazy) that the Rangers aren't an unstoppable juggernaut that will flatten everything in its path?

 

[Raikkonen]

The universal law is there must be at least 3 whipping boys at any given time for any team according to the majority of the fanbase.

The soft guy, the lazy guy and the dumb guy?!

 

[BobRouse]

Remember when we had Larry Murphy?

We were merciless with that guy. Told him how bad he sucked every chance we got.

But we got a less of a chance later on, when he got traded away, won 4 Cups, climbed to 5th all-time in D-man scoring, and was inducted into HHOF.

Yeah for sure. Thats the best example but there are others too and its not just Caps fans that engage in such behavior. Familiarity breeds contempt. The more a player does the more is expected. If they fail to achieve their own lofty standards the fans will sour on them real quick as they get spoiled (Mike Green)

Yeah Rangers are not the greatest possession team. They aren't as good as the standings indicate but they don't suck either. They have gotten high shooting pctgs and great goaltending to get where they are.

 

[Capsman]

Speaking of whipping boys, while I like MJ and don't think he's the unmitigated disaster some think he is, watching him carefully this weekend it struck me how mediocre a puck handler he is. He's just not very skilled with the stick, and I'm not sure how much better he can get. There are plenty of players like that who make up for it in other areas, like sniping. I think if he's going to get better that will be the area, because I'm not sure how much he can improve his puck handling at this point. I feel like a lot of the things that frustrate fans, like his turnovers and inability to keep possession, are related more to his stick skills than toughness, desire, or anything of that sort.

I'm sort of excited about Latta, though. I think this kid will be a 3rd line center fixture for years to come. A lot to like about his game.

I hadn't been able to go to a game this season until Saturday, and it's amazing how much better I can see things live than on TV.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Could it be possible (and I know this is going to sound crazy) that the Rangers aren't an unstoppable juggernaut that will flatten everything in its path?

Hey me and you are on the same page with that, but my point remains. How does a team fighting for first in the conference have such poor possession metrics for all but one defenseman? Seems counterintuitive.

 

[trick9]

In 1 period of hockey last night, Caps fans wanted to dump Carlson and Rangers fans wanted to dump McDonagh. If only GM's were as short-sighted there would be tons of #1D's available.

Rangers D has always been very overrated and even more so now when people were saying it was better than Predators group. It's actually somewhat similar as Caps group, or very similar player atleast.

Carlson - McDonagh (elite two-way guys, McDonagh better defensively, Carlson offensively)
Orpik - Girardi (defensive guys)
Alzner - Staal (defensive guys)
Niskanen - Boyle (two-way guys, Niskanen better defensively, Boyle more experienced)
Gleason - Klein (Defensive guys, Klein better offensively and defensively. Gleason more physical)
Green - Yandle (Elite offensive guys but both pretty terrible defensively)

 

[HunterSThompson]

Hey me and you are on the same page with that, but my point remains. How does a team fighting for first in the conference have such poor possession metrics for all but one defenseman? Seems counterintuitive.

Low shot for % + high goals for % = high PDO

Montreal is similar in that too.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

I will say, after watching the Rangers over the course of a bunch of games, I can't recall ever seeing a team attempt (and complete) so many lob passes over the forecheck and center ice. Don't know if that would have any impact on possession numbers, but it struck me as unusual.

 

[BobRouse]

Hey me and you are on the same page with that, but my point remains. How does a team fighting for first in the conference have such poor possession metrics for all but one defenseman? Seems counterintuitive.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=corsi&teamid=20&pos=skaters&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Yeah its pretty strange to me at least. Seems more forwards should be on the negative side of possession too.

The Rangers are built to be a more fast break/counter attack team.

We are built less on speed (altho we do have some) and odd man break ability but we are much bigger than most NHL teams and the players for the most part use their size (Ovechkin, Orpik, Wilson, Brouwer, Chimera, Glencross, Latta, Niskanen and Beagle mainly)

Whats good about the Caps this year is that Trotz even has guys like Kuz, MJ and Alzner finishing their checks more consistently.

 

[g00n]

Remember when we had Larry Murphy?

We were merciless with that guy. Told him how bad he sucked every chance we got.

But we got a less of a chance later on, when he got traded away, won 4 Cups, climbed to 5th all-time in D-man scoring, and was inducted into HHOF.

And for every Murphy there's probably hundreds of players that come up with scouting reports full of promise but they never really live up to them. Hall of Fame players are rare. You can't put every player on a pedestal on the off chance that he's a HOFer who's just a few years away from showing it.

Yeah for sure. Thats the best example but there are others too and its not just Caps fans that engage in such behavior. Familiarity breeds contempt. The more a player does the more is expected. If they fail to achieve their own lofty standards the fans will sour on them real quick as they get spoiled (Mike Green)

Green's problem is his price tag and his penchant for injuries (4 different ones this year?). In an uncapped league you would have a point. In a capped league you can't just call any guy with a big contract a "whipping boy" because he has critics.

 

[BobRouse]

And for every Murphy there's probably hundreds of players that come up with scouting reports full of promise but they never really live up to them. Hall of Fame players are rare. You can't put every player on a pedestal on the off chance that he's a HOFer who's just a few years away from showing it.




Green's problem is his price tag and his penchant for injuries (4 different ones this year?). In an uncapped league you would have a point. In a capped league you can't just call any guy with a big contract a "whipping boy" because he has critics.

Murphy did finish 2nd or 3rd in Norris voting a couple years prior to him getting traded. He had a monster year in 86-87. Fans just began seeing the bad and forgetting all about the good. Myself included.

I don't think its the contract with Green. Just like I don't think its the contract with Brouwer and MJ (the two other whipping boys competing for his spot)

I truly think there is an underlying feeling that we'd simply be better off without him period. Addition by subtraction. I'm my feeling for it.

 

[g00n]

Murphy did finish 2nd or 3rd in Norris voting a couple years prior to him getting traded. He had a monster year in 86-87. Fans just began seeing the bad and forgetting all about the good. Myself included.

I don't think its the contract with Green. Just like I don't think its the contract with Brouwer and MJ (the two other whipping boys competing for his spot)

I truly think there is an underlying feeling that we'd simply be better off without him period. Addition by subtraction. I'm my feeling for it.

When Green is scoring and swooping around it's hard for anyone but the most deadset haters to be critical. When he's sitting on the 3rd pair and NOT doing those things, I think some flak should be expected.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

When Green is scoring and swooping around it's hard for anyone but the most deadset haters to be critical. When he's sitting on the 3rd pair and NOT doing those things, I think some flak should be expected.

But Larry Murphy.

 

[Calicaps]

But Larry Murphy.

I'm so with you. This is a ludicrous comparison. Murphy had his flaws, but he's a first ballot hall of famer. Green will never be that player.

 

[PuckBuddy]

Remember when we had Larry Murphy?

We were merciless with that guy. Told him how bad he sucked every chance we got.

But we got a less of a chance later on, when he got traded away, won 4 Cups, climbed to 5th all-time in D-man scoring, and was inducted into HHOF.

Wooooooooooooop.

I was pretty young, so my memory about pairings might not be perfect, but I don't think that was completely unwarranted since Murphy went from being Langway and Stevens' understudy to playing partnered with Lidstom and Coffey, which can totally make you go from looking like a defensive liability to a elite well-rounded player.

Semin's the real fish that got away, man he's been tearing up the league on for pennies on the dollar since we railroaded him out of DC.

 

[txpd]

I'm so with you. This is a ludicrous comparison. Murphy had his flaws, but he's a first ballot hall of famer. Green will never be that player.

Much of Murphy's HHOF bona fides came post 30 years old. Nobody noticed this yesterday, but Green lead the team in ES/TOI. He had 3 shots on goal. If Green had committed Carlson's gaffe it would still be the primary source of conversation here today. Trotz does not use Green like a 3rd pair defenseman.

 

[troyerlaw]

I think there is some confusion about why I mentioned Larry Murphy.

I wasn't saying Green = Murphy, or that Green is future HHOF'er. I was commenting on the fact that there have always been, and will always be, whipping boys.

One commenter said something to the effect of, 'When Green leaves, Carlson will be the new whipping boy.'

And that may very well be, since whipping boys are often very good players, e.g. Murphy, Green, and McDonagh in NYC. (Ranger fan hatred of McDonagh is not a new or temporary thing, btw; all year he has been object of scorn and derision on Rags board).

What causes a player to become fan target is an interesting question.

As I said elsewhere, I do see some Murphy & Green-like qualities in Carlson. Namely, he is very talented, but he also comes across sometimes as unfocused or casual with the puck. So basically yes, I can see him winding up as a fan target.

Finally, I was trying to point out that fans make up their mind about a player, and it takes on a momentum of its own. So, while outsiders looking at the McDonagh situation, for example, can see that he is, on balance, a wonderful player and a great asset, fans of his own team may be very hard on him.

That's all.

I wasn't trying to enter the Mike Green fray at all. I was talking about whipping boys generally.

 

[troyerlaw]

Murphy had his flaws, but he's a first ballot hall of famer.

He was roundly jeered and taunted by fans in Landover and Toronto, when he played for those teams, respectively. It was more than just 'having flaws.' He elicited actual fan rage.

I can't even remember why exactly, but I remember joining in the booing and cat-calling myself. Langway and Stevens were gods, Murphy was a jack***. That's how we all felt, at least in my memory.

It's just funny to me, years later, to read his Wikipedia page and realize, 'Wait, that guy was a damn good player.'

 

[ryan519*]

Carlson should never be the whipping boy for this team like green is. Unless his play deteriorates significantly theres not much you can really harp on him for. Much more solid all around player entering elite status.

I mean he made one mistake. It was a very Green-esque thing to do, turning it over right in front of the goalie, which is why I was very surprised to see carlson do it. People were really calling for his head?

This guy will (hopefully) be our #1D for years and i could see him taking over the vacant captaincy after Ovi retires.

 

[Calicaps]

I think there is some confusion about why I mentioned Larry Murphy.

I wasn't saying Green = Murphy, or that Green is future HHOF'er. I was commenting on the fact that there have always been, and will always be, whipping boys.

One commenter said something to the effect of, 'When Green leaves, Carlson will be the new whipping boy.'

And that may very well be, since whipping boys are often very good players, e.g. Murphy, Green, and McDonagh in NYC. (Ranger fan hatred of McDonagh is not a new or temporary thing, btw; all year he has been object of scorn and derision on Rags board).

What causes a player to become fan target is an interesting question.

As I said elsewhere, I do see some Murphy & Green-like qualities in Carlson. Namely, he is very talented, but he also comes across sometimes as unfocused or casual with the puck. So basically yes, I can see him winding up as a fan target.

Finally, I was trying to point out that fans make up their mind about a player, and it takes on a momentum of its own. So, while outsiders looking at the McDonagh situation, for example, can see that he is, on balance, a wonderful player and a great asset, fans of his own team may be very hard on him.

That's all.

I wasn't trying to enter the Mike Green fray at all. I was talking about whipping boys generally.

He was roundly jeered and taunted by fans in Landover and Toronto, when he played for those teams, respectively. It was more than just 'having flaws.' He elicited actual fan rage.

I can't even remember why exactly, but I remember joining in the booing and cat-calling myself. Langway and Stevens were gods, Murphy was a jack***. That's how we all felt, at least in my memory.

It's just funny to me, years later, to read his Wikipedia page and realize, 'Wait, that guy was a damn good player.'

I remember the Murphy hate as well. And maybe txpd is right and he was just young, or maybe it was just the comparison with Langway and Stevens that made him look bad. I dunno. Our mistake to be sure.

But I guess my feeling is that Murphy was a whipping boy, so is McDonagh. Being a whipping boy implies you are taking undeserved crap.

I don't think, for example, that Jeff Schultz was a whipping boy. I think he actually sucked. While Green may not exactly suck, I also don't think he qualifies as a whipping boy. He is paid to be an elite D in this league, and he's not. Not offensively or defensively. So the criticism is deserved, I think. Thus not a whipping boy.

Will we look back on him if he leaves the way we do with Murphy. I doubt it. I don't look back at Semin's career in DC that way though many here would call him a whipping boy too. And I was a Semin apologist. In then end though, the criticism proved warranted.

As far as Carlson's play last game that led to the first goal, which txpd mentioned, that is wholly unacceptable. His propensity for such plays is concerning, but unlike Green, it is too early to believe he cannot correct that. so for now, no whipping.

 

[EroCaps]

Green's been in the league for almost a decade and still routinely makes amateurish decisions with the puck. His skating and puck handling are elite, but his hockey IQ and compete level are low (can be taken out of the game with physical play).

He's not some future Larry Murphy or Scott Neidermeyer.

Definitely not worth what he's going to get paid.