Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2019 Offseason Pt. 5: Training Camp yet?

[CapitalsCupReality]

Keep this in mind. When the Caps lost Schmidt they lost a player they were healthy scratching. If Seigenthaler is protected over a top 4 defenseman the impact is much more dangerous. Maybe between now and then Seigenthaler becomes a top 4 defenseman and plays Kempny down to the 3rd pair. That would a different set of priorities.

Seige could prove he’s top-4 worthy or others could prove they’re not. I’m hoping Seige, the younger player develops into a good defensive stopper 4/5 type.

 

[twabby]

Maybe. Who was it you thought should have been skating those 2nd pair minutes? Seigenthaler? Orpik was the 2nd best available LD but couldn't walk. Seigenthaler was a bone rookie. Djoos was not up to it after his injury. IMO Jensen was a better option than either of those 3 but his right shot created issues of their own. Do you honestly think Seigenthaler was up to that assignment?

I would have ridden Carlson heavily alongside all three of Orlov, Orpik, and Siegenthaler and would have scaled back Niskanen's minutes quite a bit, with most of those minutes being given to Carlson but some given to Jensen. Orlov would have continued getting the 1LD minutes but Siegenthaler and Orpik could have split the 2LD and 3LD minutes since, as you mentioned, neither are really ideal candidates to get 2LD minutes alone.

The baffling thing to me was that despite an entire year of the Orlov and Niskanen pairing being completely ineffective they shuffled around all of the pairings except 9-2 when Kempny went down. Breaking up that pairing would have been the first thing I would have tried to get the defense on track but they never tried it for unknown reasons.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

You can shatter all your pairs or try to contain the damage was probably the thought process.

 

[francaisvolantsparis]

I would have ridden Carlson heavily alongside all three of Orlov, Orpik, and Siegenthaler and would have scaled back Niskanen's minutes quite a bit, with most of those minutes being given to Carlson but some given to Jensen. Orlov would have continued getting the 1LD minutes but Siegenthaler and Orpik could have split the 2LD and 3LD minutes since, as you mentioned, neither are really ideal candidates to get 2LD minutes alone.

The baffling thing to me was that despite an entire year of the Orlov and Niskanen pairing being completely ineffective they shuffled around all of the pairings except 9-2 when Kempny went down. Breaking up that pairing would have been the first thing I would have tried to get the defense on track but they never tried it for unknown reasons.

You don't break your first pair to solve your second pair problems..

 

[Hivemind]

They don't have to use the 7F-3D-1G protection. They could opt for the 8 skaters + 1 goalie protection. I'm honestly not sure there are 7 forwards I would care to protect.

Protect: Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Vrana, Wilson, Carlson, Orlov, + 2 more D (Kempny/Jensen/Siegenthaler/Djoos).

Ovechkin is a UFA at the time, so unless you're that one poster who thinks Ovie is going to sign with Seattle, they could leverage that to effectively get an extra forward protection slot. Just like they did with Oshie in the Vegas draft.

Oshie, Eller, Panik, and Hagelin will be exposed in that scenario, but given their age at the time, I don't think anyone would be all too heartbroken about them being picked up by Seattle in summer 2021.

 

[Hivemind]

You don't break your first pair to solve your second pair problems..

The first pair was already broken.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Capt Obvious award.....

 

[Corby78]

You don't break your first pair to solve your second pair problems..

Disagree, depending on the situation, that might be the best option. Its hard to hide a paring that is struggling, its impossible to hide two. Sometimes you need to break up your first pair to stabilize the entire defensive corp.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Sometimes a coach prefers continuity I guess.

 

[txpd]

Right shot 5’s do. Let’s see him play out the season proving he can shoulder the load if he wins that 4 spot even.

Agreed. Its very much up in the air. I think the same can me said of Kempny were you to expose him to the same sort of ice time load that Jensen will be getting.

 

[txpd]

Seige could prove he’s top-4 worthy or others could prove they’re not. I’m hoping Seige, the younger player develops into a good defensive stopper 4/5 type.

Could. You can make a fair case that Carlson is the only part of the defense that is a known quantity at this point. Lots there to play out

 

[txpd]

I would have ridden Carlson heavily alongside all three of Orlov, Orpik, and Siegenthaler and would have scaled back Niskanen's minutes quite a bit, with most of those minutes being given to Carlson but some given to Jensen. Orlov would have continued getting the 1LD minutes but Siegenthaler and Orpik could have split the 2LD and 3LD minutes since, as you mentioned, neither are really ideal candidates to get 2LD minutes alone.

The baffling thing to me was that despite an entire year of the Orlov and Niskanen pairing being completely ineffective they shuffled around all of the pairings except 9-2 when Kempny went down. Breaking up that pairing would have been the first thing I would have tried to get the defense on track but they never tried it for unknown reasons.

Carlson? Carlson was already playing as much as he could. The problem all along was Left D after Kempny went down. Would you have played Seigenthaler 22mins a night? That was really the only realistic option they had beyond using Jensen as they did.

They didn't mess with Niskanen and Orlov, IMO, because they were playing better down the stretch and they were the only realistic option playing defense against the opposing 1st line. It was not realistic or advantageous to use Carlson in that role regardless of partner.

 

[twabby]

Carlson? Carlson was already playing as much as he could. The problem all along was Left D after Kempny went down. Would you have played Seigenthaler 22mins a night? That was really the only realistic option they had beyond using Jensen as they did.

They didn't mess with Niskanen and Orlov, IMO, because they were playing better down the stretch and they were the only realistic option playing defense against the opposing 1st line. It was not realistic or advantageous to use Carlson in that role regardless of partner.

Niskanen was a trainwreck all season and despite Carlson's struggles on his own end of the ice I would have been much happier with him getting more of Niskanen's ice time, along with Jensen. Just because Niskanen played those tough minutes doesn't mean he did anything positive with them at all. He was a disaster and MacLellan realized that this offseason. Reirden should have realized it sooner and given him easier minutes and let Carlson and Jensen take those minutes.

Yes, I would have played Siegenthaler more. Not 22 minutes but more than the 16 a night he got in the postseason. He wasn't a worldbeater but he acclimated himself well enough over the course of the season and even the postseason he looked fine minus the one flub he had that led to a goal against. I would have also explored dressing 7D in the regular season instead of dressing someone like Chandler Stephenson or Travis Boyd on the 4th line for fewer than 10 minutes a night. 7D didn't work in 2017 but that's because they didn't have any time to practice it during the regular season. They could have this season but chose not to.

The main thing is: I would not have put their best defenseman on the left side where he never played before as an NHLer and proved to be ineffective at it in the final weeks of the regular season. None of the options for dealing with Kempny's injury was ideal, but the staff still chose the worst option they could have by putting Carlson on the left side.

 

[txpd]

Niskanen was a trainwreck all season and despite Carlson's struggles on his own end of the ice I would have been much happier with him getting more of Niskanen's ice time, along with Jensen. Just because Niskanen played those tough minutes doesn't mean he did anything positive with them at all. He was a disaster and MacLellan realized that this offseason. Reirden should have realized it sooner and given him easier minutes and let Carlson and Jensen take those minutes.

Yes, I would have played Siegenthaler more. Not 22 minutes but more than the 16 a night he got in the postseason. He wasn't a worldbeater but he acclimated himself well enough over the course of the season and even the postseason he looked fine minus the one flub he had that led to a goal against. I would have also explored dressing 7D in the regular season instead of dressing someone like Chandler Stephenson or Travis Boyd on the 4th line for fewer than 10 minutes a night. 7D didn't work in 2017 but that's because they didn't have any time to practice it during the regular season. They could have this season but chose not to.

The main thing is: I would not have put their best defenseman on the left side where he never played before as an NHLer and proved to be ineffective at it in the final weeks of the regular season. None of the options for dealing with Kempny's injury was ideal, but the staff still chose the worst option they could have by putting Carlson on the left side.

As usual you have an unconventional look at things. I can understand that desire but there are reasons for rules. In the case of Seigenthaler, 22 minutes is what he would be getting were he skating with Carlson at even strength and taking a regular PK turn. Even if Orpik took his last few shifts of a game with a lead.

I didn't see Carlson as a problem in his own end. I also didn't see him trying to carry the minutes he was playing, play in all situations AND have to defending against the opposing first line. That would grind him into dust. You have to let the other guys play and take your chances. If Carlson was not going to do shutdown duty then he was going to get the back up defenseman on his pair and you had to run with 2 and 9. I note no mention of 9 which means I have to assume that he was fine. All the issues were Niskanen. Whats new?

 

[Sam Spade]

I wonder if the Caps brass has ever considered moving one of the stud LD's to right D, as the Canes did moving Pesce from RD to LD?

 

[traparatus]

They were screwed because they didn't have a back up for that spot when Kempny went down. If the Caps were down to just Carlson on the right side, the same would have happened. Some LD would have had to play out of position. By the time of the X draft you would think that Seigenthaler and at least one more of their young LD depth would be a decent option for 2LD.

I think a revisit to this question after 20 or 40 games would be wise. I don't think we saw the best that Jensen has to offer last season and we are unsure what post injury Kempny will be. In my view it could go either way.

Actually, we had multiple back-ups for just that situation. It's more of a testament to how solid a player Kempny is as neither Djoos nor Seigenthaler could come close to filling his role.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Could. You can make a fair case that Carlson is the only part of the defense that is a known quantity at this point. Lots there to play out

Guess that depends on what you mean by “known quantity”.

Carlson is a known top pair.
I think Orlov is absolutely a known top 4
I think Kempny is also now a known top 4
Gudas and Jensen are absolutely known Top 6 defensemen. Are they 4/5 or 5/6? On this team, mind you. That is unknown.
Siegenthaler is not rock solid....yet
Dojo’s is a known NHL D-man. 6/7 or higher?

Sure, some things need to play out....absolutely. But I wouldn’t want to make it sound like it’s Carlson and a bunch of question marks.

That’s not really a fair assessment, IMO

 

[Hivemind]

Actually, we had multiple back-ups for just that situation. It's more of a testament to how solid a player Kempny is as neither Djoos nor Seigenthaler could come close to filling his role.

Djoos had actually done fairly well in filling that role in the past, but he didn't look 100% after his own injury issues.

 

[txpd]

Actually, we had multiple back-ups for just that situation. It's more of a testament to how solid a player Kempny is as neither Djoos nor Seigenthaler could come close to filling his role.

Of course I didn't mean they didn't have a defenseman under contract that they could put a uniform on. The had an injured 2nd year kid. They had a bone rookie. They had an aging veteran whose knee was so bad he couldn't walk up stairs. They didn't have a player that could handle a top 4 even strength shift for an entire NHL game.

I am not sure about the testament part. Kempny's game is limited. He is a 5d that plays 4 at even strength. He plays no special teams. He is a left shot and so he doesn't fit the power play. He is not good enough at penalty killing to play there except in emergency. Both Orpik and Seigenthaler were better at that than Kempny which isn't much of a testament.

Orpik was better than Kempny but he couldn't play the minutes anymore. Seigenthaler wasn't ready for that level of NHL assignment. Jensen was good enough but a right hand shot. They didn't have a player in the top 7 that could move up and play those minutes.

 

[Silky mitts]

I hope the Caps lose a good player in the expansion draft because that would mean they’ve got 4 defenseman minimum that are good players in 2 years not counting future HOF Feverbaby

 

[txpd]

Guess that depends on what you mean by “known quantity”.

Carlson is a known top pair.
I think Orlov is absolutely a known top 4
I think Kempny is also now a known top 4
Gudas and Jensen are absolutely known Top 6 defensemen. Are they 4/5 or 5/6? On this team, mind you. That is unknown.
Siegenthaler is not rock solid....yet
Dojo’s is a known NHL D-man. 6/7 or higher?

Sure, some things need to play out....absolutely. But I wouldn’t want to make it sound like it’s Carlson and a bunch of question marks.

That’s not really a fair assessment, IMO

What I mean is that Carlson is a known 1d who can handle top minutes. Who plays in all situations at a high level.

Orlov is a known top 4 defenseman who will be playing a new role that he has never done before. The lead player on his pair. Maybe a primary penalty killer.
Kempny is a top 4 defenseman only to the level that he can handle skating even strength minutes with a Norris trophy candidate handling 2nd pair assignments and hold his own. A quality top 4 defenseman isn't limited to just even strength play. Kempny is also coming back from a serious injury. How he recovers from that is unknown.
Jensen is a 5d that the team clearly has hopes is capable of handling top 4 minutes and shutdown pair assignments. Its an unknown that he can do that.
Gudas isn't a top 4 defenseman. If Jensen cant do it, then can Gudas survive doing it? Unknown.
Seigenthaler is not an established NHL defenseman. I could see him as a solid top 4 LD but that's not known.
Djoos is recovering from a serious injury. He clearly was not able to play up to his previous level after returning from that injury. His situation is unknown.

My view is that the team knows what its doing. That Orlov will be able to handle taking Niskanen's spot on the team. That Jensen will be able to replace Niskanen's minutes. I have hopes for Seigenthaler.

I don't see why the defense cant be solid. My point was that as opposed to most previous years of late where we knew what we had with Carlson, Niskanen, Orlov and Orpik, that this season is more unsettled.

 

[HecticGlow]

Worth remembering a couple of points when thinking about the D towards the end of the regular season:

• Djoos was sufficiently injured for them to bring in someone new to bump him out of the lineup - only for him to have to return after very little time at all because of Kempny. It’s not just about being injured, it’s also about conditioning when you’ve been unable to use your leg for that long. Pressing him into a top-4 role when he wasn’t sufficiently recovered and conditioned was never going to work for someone who is probably stretched playing that many minutes when healthy
• Orpik, the only veteran LD who could have filled in on top-4 minutes, was struggling so much he couldn’t take the stairs at the arena
• Even Siegenthaler, the rookie who played well, was battling an injury all season which prevented him from straightening his leg, and has required surgery and rehab this summer
• Jensen wasn’t allowed much time at all to get used to the Caps system before also having to get used to playing with a guy who was on his offside. And he got no consistency in partners, ending up playing alongside Orpik, Carlson and Djoos in the few weeks he was here. Not exactly set up to succeed, was he?

Any team with an LD unable to play, another LD not yet recovered from a significant injury, a third LD struggling to walk and a fourth not able to properly stand was always going to struggle. Honestly, they did pretty well not to completely fold entirely - and that’s before you consider Orlov and Niskanen’s season long struggles to stay above water.

We can’t possibly assess who should be protected beyond Carlson and Orlov when the recovery of Djoos and Kempny, team fit of Jensen, and ceiling of Siegenthaler are all still so up in the air.

 

[HecticGlow]

(As an aside, I note Kempny still isn’t skating. Will be interesting to see how that affects his readiness to play at anything close to 100% when he does return, when you consider how long his colleagues have been skating for already)

 

[ovikovy817]

Oh boy Kuzya

 

[itsjustsurvival]

Oh boy Kuzya

Yeah not great.