Post-Game Talk: Capitals 4, Penguins 1 - All is Well

[Honour Over Glory]

Sid, come on man..

Team is playing like ass.

The team, for the most part, is playing like crap. Sure. But 2 out of our 4 "stars" are actually showing up on a consistent enough level in Malkin & Kessel. Letang & Crosby, I mean even Letang has his injury and getting back on track as his issue, but Crosby? I have never seen him just give up on plays half way through or just look this frustrated since MJ was the coach, he just looks like he's frustrated with everything and everyone. That seems like a him problem, as a leader, you can't not show up that often, that is not how you lead.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

A few things:

It's not fatigue from playing a lot of hockey in the last two years. These are professional athletes coming off a few months rest. If fatigue will factor in it will be later in the season, not now. Just to get that out of the way.

It's primarily not a roster problem, the roster can improve sure, but I think everyone can agree this is not the best hockey this roster can play. Improving the roster is a seperate discussion from how they are currently playing in my opinion.

I will agree with the people bringing up the defensive play and system. It's been pretty bad stretching back from last year. This is definitely a system problem, and that's on coaches. Some of it is forwards not doing their part to help the D, but a lot of it is on coaches. We hung in for dear life last playoffs, collapsing and putting no pressure on the puck is not going to work out well.

Problem is the players are not putting in their best effort. Crosby is mailing it in, Letang is very bad and the supporting cast is overall a disappointment.

I think Sully so far have had a poor handle on it this season in the accountability department. Guys like Guentzel and Sheary have at times mailed it in, and they need to be reminded that they are not named Crosby or Malkin and are not allowed to mail it in (not saying they are doing it constantly). Players are complacent because they are not being promoted or demoted based on their on ice performance. In the regular season there's room to not always have the most talent on ice at all times, there's room to give a player the boot to light a fire.

Perhaps that stems from the fact we don't have sure fire players in WBS to bring up for a stint? I don't have a good view on the WBS guys so...

Generally this roster is good enough for the regular season, it's been a tough schedule and we have gotten good enough amount of points during it. But the play have been ass. The defensive system needs changing.

Other than that it's really about getting Crosby and Letang going right now, and how to solve that I don't know.

 

[Peat]

You know what. I agree. They both arent all that.

I just spent time going through History of NHL trades by the Pittsburgh Penguins - NHL Trade Tracker

Go ahead and look back until June 2014 when JR arrived. There are a number of Pens overpayments, a few where the players coming back did or have played well above the expectation anyone could have had, and a few where it was a push trade of minorly effective for minorly effective. Someone playing above their ability isnt genius...I mean it is, but only in revisionist history. It is risky to take reclamations all the time.

What genius of JR am I missing in the trades of the last 2.5 years???

If you go back a couple years before that, the trades were pathetic too though.

Uhm... Schultz for a 3rd? Kessel for our loose change? Identifying the need for Hornqvist? Bonino for Sutter?

And the ultimate voodoo trade, Daley for Scuderi?

Five great trades that played a huge part in our back to back, none of which involved anyone playing above their ability. How many competing teams can point to their front office making 5 home run trades in a three year period?

Sure, some of the trades are chaff. Some of the trades are gambles that fell right (although every trade is an educated guess to a degree and if a GM makes a trade because he's 70-30 sure it will work for him and it does, he deserves the credit). But I'm not sure what you're actually expecting from a GM if you're holding this against them. Look around the league; its pretty clearly a trade where the odds are stacked against you, particularly if you're at a team that's short of cap.

I don't agree with the Jason Botterill mastermind meme, but it makes a lot more sense than saying our front office hasn't been all that in the last three years. Which isn't saying that they've always been all that, or will always be all that, but that time period? Front Office Gold. Someone - a lot of someones - deserve a lot of credit.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah pinning the blame or the fame on 1 single person is a little absurd, yeah some moves can be just the one person for sure (JR and his ties to Cullen for example), but it's a team effort, they bounce ideas off of each other and make the best move based on that or someone has to convince the rest that the idea they have, will work.

Accountability is the biggest problem, which I hate that is a thing still with this team. We all hated it under the Bylsma years, then again in the MJ tenure (short lived) and we were all happy that it was finally a thing under Sullivan for 1.5yrs, now it's back to "hey you can be crap based on your past success or talent level!" and that's not cool. If you are going to bench Sheary last year and Hagelin, then again with Hagelin this year, why don't certain players this season deserve that same accountability?

Instead they just hope the players play themselves out of that hole, while not realizing it's infecting the rest of the team, because the guys that need to be held accountable, are in leadership positions. If your captain and assistant are dogging it or playing like crap and are constantly given more rope to, what message does that send the rest of the team?

 

[EightyOne]

I was just going to comment on how I'm surprised Sprong hasn't been called up with how anemic the Penguins have been offensively, but your post was so insane that it actually thew me off and now I can't finish that post.

For real, acting like Botterill was some sort of mastermind behind the last 2 years (which I do really like him, btw) just seems weird. Are you ignoring that he was the assistant GM under Shero and in JR's 1st year. Why was he so responsible for the last 2 years, but not the failures from before 2 years ago? And why are you pretending the issues with this team are GM related? Crosby is on pace for 59 points, 146 PIM and a -64. Letang is on pace for 50 points (which is low for him) and a -73. Sheary has gone from a 70+ point pace to a 32 point pace. Guentzel has also had a similar offensive decline this year, with only being on pace for 41 points this year. There are 4 players on pace for more points than they had last year, only Kessel, Rust, McKegg and Maatta. That's it. Everyone else is either slightly below (Malkin, Hornqvist, Letang, Reaves and Dumoulin, although it's generous to include Dumoulin in this category) or insanely below (Sheary, Crosby, Schultz, Guentzel, Cole, Hagelin and Kuhnhackl).

I genuinely don't know how you can blame JR for the Penguins current standing. It is completely on the players, they need to be better. That's just what it is, they need to be better. This team is not perfect, but their flaws are not a justification of how they have played recently and overall this year. They need to be better.

Ah. Yeah, you misread my *second* post. I did start by saying Botterill might be good in the inital post. Then I was browsing the trade history and realized the years before JR were full of even more stupid moves too. I mean, I suppose he has been more successful than Shero.

And why are the issues with on ice performance GM related? Because the GM puts the personnel out there. If they f***ing suck or cant get engaged in a game...that is ultimately the GMs problem. Coach should correct it...but again..GM dictates who the coach is...GM is Captain of the ship. If some lowly turd cant oil the engine properly and they go dead in the water--it is the Captain at fault. Possibly by signing subpar loser players and retaining unproductive ones...possssibly JR has some blame.

Uhm... Schultz for a 3rd? Kessel for our loose change? Identifying the need for Hornqvist? Bonino for Sutter?

And the ultimate voodoo trade, Daley for Scuderi?

Five great trades that played a huge part in our back to back, none of which involved anyone playing above their ability. How many competing teams can point to their front office making 5 home run trades in a three year period?

Sure, some of the trades are chaff. Some of the trades are gambles that fell right (although every trade is an educated guess to a degree and if a GM makes a trade because he's 70-30 sure it will work for him and it does, he deserves the credit). But I'm not sure what you're actually expecting from a GM if you're holding this against them. Look around the league; its pretty clearly a trade where the odds are stacked against you, particularly if you're at a team that's short of cap.

I don't agree with the Jason Botterill mastermind meme, but it makes a lot more sense than saying our front office hasn't been all that in the last three years. Which isn't saying that they've always been all that, or will always be all that, but that time period? Front Office Gold. Someone - a lot of someones - deserve a lot of credit.

That trade for Schultz worked out as an exception, not a rule. You dont get floundering defensemen to magically get great. JR is terribly lucky Schultz blossomed again. You cant call that GM skill. It was just as likely Schultz stayed terrible, we dont do crap in the playoffs, and he is playing in Europe as it was that he remembered how to connect the dots.

Kessel had 10000000% more to do with Kessel and Toronto than with Penguins front office. Pittsburgh was lucky Kessel didnt mind a trade here and that we sorta had some players to throw in on it. Toronto had soured that situation so bad they were never going to get a good trade.

Yeah pinning the blame or the fame on 1 single person is a little absurd, yeah some moves can be just the one person for sure (JR and his ties to Cullen for example), but it's a team effort, they bounce ideas off of each other and make the best move based on that or someone has to convince the rest that the idea they have, will work.

Accountability is the biggest problem, which I hate that is a thing still with this team. We all hated it under the Bylsma years, then again in the MJ tenure (short lived) and we were all happy that it was finally a thing under Sullivan for 1.5yrs, now it's back to "hey you can be crap based on your past success or talent level!" and that's not cool. If you are going to bench Sheary last year and Hagelin, then again with Hagelin this year, why don't certain players this season deserve that same accountability?

Instead they just hope the players play themselves out of that hole, while not realizing it's infecting the rest of the team, because the guys that need to be held accountable, are in leadership positions. If your captain and assistant are dogging it or playing like crap and are constantly given more rope to, what message does that send the rest of the team?

Been in situations like this. It makes you not care real fast. I get that these guys make millions of dollars, but they are human and it is just a job too. So why should someone in the bottom six hustle or why should the defense take a hit to make a play, when the 'stars' wont get called out for not hustling? They need some real closed door meetings to stamp it out. If it goes int the media a la Therrien, it is over. If the team really is saving themselves, why cant they give us fans a decent win ever 3 games then? Will everyones ACL explode if they beat the Canucks? I dont think they have had 3 decent games so far.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Funny thing is that home stretch before heading to Minny/Western Canada, i thought there was some nice stretches of play vs WPG and EDM i believe it was. All 3 zones, they were pressuring really well. Sid actually had shots on goal and looked snake bitten rather than lost/disinterested.

I think if they can come out of NSH tonight unscathed(without major injuries), hopefully picking up 1 or 2 pts, the next stretch of 14 games with 10 of them being at PPG, may give better results. Still think they should tinker tho with plugging in Archie again/Consider waiving a McKegg and giving Bleuger a shot. <Stuff like that.

ETA:
Also, checking on the dates with Rowney, he injured his hand on Oct.20th.
4 weeks will be Nov.17th. 6 weeks will be Dec.1st.

 

[EightyOne]

^^^ sounds good.

I can't wait to be less cranky poster over the next two weeks.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The internet is a culture of outrage. What do you expect?

Oh right, I forgot that one can't use common sense when posting online.

f*** that whole critical thinking/being reasonable nonsense when we can grab torches...

You know what. I agree. They both arent all that.

I just spent time going through History of NHL trades by the Pittsburgh Penguins - NHL Trade Tracker

Go ahead and look back until June 2014 when JR arrived. There are a number of Pens overpayments, a few where the players coming back did or have played well above the expectation anyone could have had, and a few where it was a push trade of minorly effective for minorly effective. Someone playing above their ability isnt genius...I mean it is, but only in revisionist history. It is risky to take reclamations all the time.

What genius of JR am I missing in the trades of the last 2.5 years???

If you go back a couple years before that, the trades were pathetic too though.

I know, it was basically all luck that JR came aboard and within two years, an org that was teetering on the edge of wasting two generational talents, is now a b2b champ.

JR just slung shit at the wall and said a prayer with every swig... he had no plan, just riding that rainbow...

 

[Pens x]

Crosby is 1G 3A -11 in his last 11 games. Might not even reach 40 points at this pace lol. Next Sheahan!

Sheahan is on a .05 point per 82 game streak right now. If he scored 40 points in a season fans on this website would throw him a parade. Please never compare Sid to Sheahan. 1 is a top 5 NHL player of all time and the other one will be playing hockey in Switzerland in 2 years unless he suddenly becomes good.

 

[Crosbyfan]

The good news is that here we are one month and a bit into the season and Letang leads the League and all D in time on ice, and Sid leads all forwards in the League in time on ice...so they must be healthy.

The bad news is Letang leads the League and all D in the - side of +/-, and Sid leads all forwards in the League on the - side of +/-. and there are only 2 teams in the League with a worse goal differential.

The good news is that in spite of that they are actually in playoff position, second in their division.

The bad news is that if accounted for properly, by percentage of available points, they don't even have a Wild Card spot....

 

[The Old Master]

Oh right, I forgot that one can't use common sense when posting online.

**** that whole critical thinking/being reasonable nonsense when we can grab torches...



I know, it was basically all luck that JR came aboard and within two years, an org that was teetering on the edge of wasting two generational talents, is now a b2b champ.

JR just slung **** at the wall and said a prayer with every swig... he had no plan, just riding that rainbow...

with the moves he made this yr. you might be more right than you think.........we all thought he was building on team speed...we get sheahan and reaves.

 

[Rossi Rat]

Honestly just think they’re getting beat by better teams. Plenty of other talent and rising young talent. Brock Boser? Better than Sid rn. Same with Johnny Hockey, most of Tampa’s roster, Oshie, etc.

 

[PensFan8771]

Honestly this team so far feels like, dare I say it, the times between 2009-2015, patching areas of need with unmotivated and useless players who aren’t making everyone around them better. Defense right now playing the same way giving up great scoring opportunities while not making the flashy plays they have the last 2 years. Everyone is out of sync on every phase of the game.

First 2 lines know they can’t count on the bottom 2 to deliver points which is why I think Crosby is off because he’s trying to do too much instead of simplifying his game. A lot of bad puck luck hasn’t helped either which was a big reason we couldn’t get it done during that 6 year stretch.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Here is what I don't get. The season began and Crosby (and a few others) were among the leading scorers in the NHL. We lost the first two games but then rattled off seven wins out of 9. In our first 11 games, we had only lost with Murray in net on opening night in OT, and then the other three losses were with Niemi starting.

Somewhere along the line, we messed up all the lines, and now Crosby is stuck playing with the one guy he hates playing with and he is in the worst non-Mike Johnston-coached slump of his career. Coincidence?

I don't care about defense. Please put Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary back together A S A P and leave them alone por favor. We will get Crosby going and that alone should carry us through November.

IF Sullivan feels forced to keep Sheary on the third line because we're getting more production from Line 4 than Line 3 right now, then for the love of God please call up Sprong and use him with Crosby and Guentzel. This Crosby-Hornqvist thing has to end. Now.

Malkin-Kessel seem to produce with Guentzel or Rust, so taking Guentzel off the line didn't change anything last night. Just keep Rust there and they'll be fine.


Now, Line 3 is a major issue. Sheahan is no better than McKegg or Rowney. They can all kill penalties and they can all kill offensive opportunities on the third line. The difference is McKegg and Rowney are dirt cheap. Sheahan is not.

We currently have 7 top-9 forwards. If we call up Sprong that would give us 8. We need a 3C to complete the picture this season.

I would love to see Archibald and McKegg play with Reaves. I thought that fourth line looked better than all the others since the season began. Rowney and Kuhnhackl can be extras.

Hagelin, Hornqvist, Sheahan...use one or two of these guys, with perhaps a defenseman like Hunwick or Ruhwedel, and find a true third-line center.

JR needs to make a hockey trade, and the third line is the target. Both coming and going.


Lastly, we played right into the Capitals' hands last night. We started the game with zero emotion, zero energy. That is how the Caps like it. Trotz would like to put teams to sleep if he could. The fight helped get us going a little, but we can't finish off plays. The passing in the offensive zone was terrible last night. It seemed almost everybody was off just enough. The bottom line is, we have too many guys providing zero offense right now, starting with #87 of course.

Last night, the PP could not bail them out. We would have needed someone to get that elusive five-on-five goal that just never happened.

Hopefully, we're better in another emotional match-up tonight against the Preds. Start Jarry, hopefully the kid plays well again and hopefully he gets more run support than Murray did last night.

 

[trader997]

I'm not concerned one bit. They played a lot of hockey the past 2 years and they are not 21 years old anymore. On an 82 games schedule they will obviously let some games go by them. I can live with this kind of hockey until the 1st of March, as of now, i can't care less how the team is doing because they will start playing playoff hockey again in the second half of the season. In the meantime, i love the drama some of you are providing.

 

[Clare2904]

All good and well saying it doesn't matter until March, they got to play now so that hockey continues after 6th April.

You think the entire team is gonna flick a switch and start gelling and playing?

 

[Clare2904]

As for the drama some are bringing, please, f*** off till March if you don't care!

 

[NMK11]

And yet every single fan of the NHL would trade places with us and be ecstatic. Sooooo there's that.

This is adversity. That's a challenge for the team. There is no masking how they are playing. But I feel Jiggy is right that there is a happy medium between being not so happy with their play versus the sky is falling routine.

The problem with you and a few others is that you cant seem to grasp that there is a happy medium when you see it. If someone posts anything negative about how the team is playing or the roster management, you swoop in and tell them that we won back to back cups and that they are being ridiculous. Any team would trade their last two seasons for ours, but not every team would trade this season with ours, and with you being such a black and white thinker I dont think you can distinguish between those two sentiments.

 

[deakka]

Honestly just think they’re getting beat by better teams. Plenty of other talent and rising young talent. Brock Boser? Better than Sid rn. Same with Johnny Hockey, most of Tampa’s roster, Oshie, etc.

Yeah. I totally would want Boeser instead of Sid... get real.

 

[EightyOne]

Yeah. I totally would want Boeser instead of Sid... get real.

Well he did put rn..which I'm guessing is for 'right now.'

So I mean, he isn't wrong.

 

[ColePens]

The problem with you and a few others is that you cant seem to grasp that there is a happy medium when you see it. If someone posts anything negative about how the team is playing or the roster management, you swoop in and tell them that we won back to back cups and that they are being ridiculous. Any team would trade their last two seasons for ours, but not every team would trade this season with ours, and with you being such a black and white thinker I dont think you can distinguish between those two sentiments.

Yeah you are dead wrong. There is tons of conversation about the team playing badly. As Jiggy said -

**** that whole critical thinking/being reasonable nonsense when we can grab torches...

Conversation is fine. Being frustrated is fine. Good back and forth discussion is great. Grabbing the ole torch and freaking out is ridiculous.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The problem with you and a few others is that you cant seem to grasp that there is a happy medium when you see it. If someone posts anything negative about how the team is playing or the roster management, you swoop in and tell them that we won back to back cups and that they are being ridiculous. Any team would trade their last two seasons for ours, but not every team would trade this season with ours, and with you being such a black and white thinker I dont think you can distinguish between those two sentiments.

I can easily swing right back at the "happy medium" comment.

We have people calling Crosby and others quitters, taking credit away from JR for building b2b cup winners, trying to discredit Sullivan, calling Sheahan an idiot, questioning if they will even make the playoffs, etc

It's always been this way around here though whenever this team faces adversity, people turn on them. You would think the heart this team showed us the last two years would buy them some common sense from their fans, but nah...

 

[NMK11]

I can easily swing right back at the "happy medium" comment.

We have people calling Crosby and others quitters, taking credit away from JR for building b2b cup winners, trying to discredit Sullivan, calling Sheahan an idiot, questioning if they will even make the playoffs, etc

It's always been this way around here though whenever this team faces adversity, people turn on them. You would think the heart this team showed us the last two years would buy them some common sense from their fans, but nah...

I agree that theres definitely some torch swinging and ridiculousness on here. Crosby, the hardest working athlete Ive ever seen, is not quitting. JR has been great, and the team in general is underperforming and really not likely going to play like this the whole season. I personally think you've been one of the better posters for keeping things in perspective while actually talking about things. I still reference that seeding breakdown you posted in response to me once.

Its just frustrating to want to talk about any sort of negative and get lumped in with said torch burning and told off, especially by mods. It polarizes people and turns into this. Other than Niemi. I think we all agreed he was a waste.

 

[ColePens]

I agree that theres definitely some torch swinging and ridiculousness on here. Crosby, the hardest working athlete Ive ever seen, is not quitting. JR has been great, and the team in general is underperforming and really not likely going to play like this the whole season. I personally think you've been one of the better posters for keeping things in perspective while actually talking about things. I still reference that seeding breakdown you posted in response to me once.

Its just frustrating to want to talk about any sort of negative and get lumped in with said torch burning and told off, especially by mods. It polarizes people and turns into this. Other than Niemi. I think we all agreed he was a waste.

If you think the post is about you, then you probably have those on ignore that it's about. I'm not against negative frustration. I'm against the far end of the spectrum that screams this is all one big failure.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

When Sheary went down last year, Guentzel was brought up to see if he was ready and if he could inject some offense into the top 6 to help out. He did. Sid found a guy he produced with, until this year it didn't work as often.

I'm just not sure why they haven't brought up Sprong to inject that same energy and a fresher look at things into the top 6 (another shooter that has a fantastic shot). Like, it wouldn't even shock me if Archibald wasn't in for today's game, because...Kuhnhackl does something we don't see.