Confirmed with Link: Canucks sign defenceman Troy Stecher (post #194, #443)

[ahmon]

If Troy makes the top 6 keep him and waive/trade whoever is the 9th/10th.

If Troy is going to be the extra 7th/8th. While on merit he should be making the team, for his "development" its much better to be playing loads down in Utica than sitting in the press box.

 

[CanaFan]

Biega will surely play 19 games this year at some point, whether we keep him here or send him to the AHL. Personally I'd keep him here.

Sbisa I'd encase in lead and send on a rocket to outer space if possible.

Parts of him already are.

 

[UticaHockey]

Biega will surely play 19 games this year at some point, whether we keep him here or send him to the AHL. Personally I'd keep him here.

Sbisa I'd encase in lead and send on a rocket to outer space if possible.

I thought Biega was a lock to clear waivers because of his contract but now I'm not to sure. That contract could be a hot commodity for another team that needs to protect a desirable dman from the expansion draft who doesn't have a NTC. It gets complimented this year because of the expansion draft.

 

[CanaFan]

If Troy makes the top 6 keep him and waive/trade whoever is the 9th/10th.

If Troy is going to be the extra 7th/8th. While on merit he should be making the team, for his "development" its much better to be playing loads down in Utica than sitting in the press box.

I agree with that but my sense is that he is competing directly with Larsen for the role of "PP specialist" which is presumably on the bottom pairing but with a top PP role. I think no matter how well Stetcher plays, if Larsen plays as good or better then Stetcher goes down simply because the top 4 D are locked and a Larsen-Stetcher pairing doesn't work. I see it as Stetcher or Larsen. No chance of both.

 

[DL44]

I thought Biega was a lock to clear waivers because of his contract but now I'm not to sure. That contract could be a hot commodity for another team that needs to protect a desirable dman from the expansion draft who doesn't have a NTC. It gets complimented this year because of the expansion draft.

That doesn't make sense... that would only work if Biega was the most desirable player the team in question had to expose.

Protected: Edler, Tanev, Gudbranson
Ineligible : Hutton, Tryamkin, Stecher, Juolevi, Brisebois, Biega
In the draft: Sbisa, Pedan, Larsen, Biega

 

[ahmon]

I agree with that but my sense is that he is competing directly with Larsen for the role of "PP specialist" which is presumably on the bottom pairing but with a top PP role. I think no matter how well Stetcher plays, if Larsen plays as good or better then Stetcher goes down simply because the top 4 D are locked and a Larsen-Stetcher pairing doesn't work. I see it as Stetcher or Larsen. No chance of both.

well, yeah, if Stecher can't outplay Larsen then he's not in the top 6.

 

[UticaHockey]

That doesn't make sense... that would only work if Biega was the most desirable player the team in question had to expose.

Not really. Every team has to expose at least one dman who is under contract in 2017-18 AND played in 40 NHL games this season OR 70 NHL games the past two seasons. In order to not expose Tanev or Gudbranson they need a Biega or Sbisa to play this year so they can be the exposed dman. If you lose one then you better hope the other doesn't get injured and not make it to 70 games. Other teams may be in the same mindset and see Biega a cheap option to pick up, play a 7th or 8th dman role and expose him to Las Vegas.

 

[MS]

Not really. Every team has to expose at least one dman who is under contract in 2017-18 AND played in 40 NHL games this season OR 70 NHL games the past two seasons. In order to not expose Tanev or Gudbranson they need a Biega or Sbisa to play this year so they can be the exposed dman. If you lose one then you better hope the other doesn't get injured and not make it to 70 games. Other teams may be in the same mindset and see Biega a cheap option to pick up, play a 7th or 8th dman role and expose him to Las Vegas.

This really isn't anything to worry about.

At least one of Sbisa, Larsen, or Biega will end up accomplishing this.

And on the miniscule chance that doesn't happen, at the end of the season you send a mid-round pick somewhere to a team that has a junk player that meets those criteria.

 

[DL44]

Not really. Every team has to expose at least one dman who is under contract in 2017-18 AND played in 40 NHL games this season OR 70 NHL games the past two seasons. In order to not expose Tanev or Gudbranson they need a Biega or Sbisa to play this year so they can be the exposed dman. If you lose one then you better hope the other doesn't get injured and not make it to 70 games. Other teams may be in the same mindset and see Biega a cheap option to pick up, play a 7th or 8th dman role and expose him to Las Vegas.

Oh I see what you mean... I don't think teams will be hard pressed to have a 70/40 dman to expose.
Especially at this point before the season even begins.
It might be an issue close to the trade deadline if a team's been decimated with injuries... but not at the conclusion of training camp in 2 weeks..

 

[CanaFan]

well, yeah, if Stecher can't outplay Larsen then he's not in the top 6.

And I'm saying that Larsen is his only way in. Not Pedan, not Sbisa, not Biega. Just Larsen.

 

[VanJack]

No knock on Stecher who's been a great story so far....but always amazes me how guys like Stecher and Hutton coming out of NCAA college hockey programs are considered 'green rookies' who've come out of nowhere....posters do realize that Stecher is actually four months older than Tryamkin; four years older than Juolevi and only nine months younger than Pedan.

 

[CanaFan]

No knock on Stecher who's been a great story so far....but always amazes me how guys like Stecher and Hutton coming out of NCAA college hockey programs are considered 'green rookies' who've come out of nowhere....posters do realize that Stecher is actually four months older than Tryamkin; four years older than Juolevi and only nine months younger than Pedan.

Yep. That's why I think he should be taken seriously for a roster spot rather than view him like an 18 year old who should go back to a lower level no matter what. The league is littered with players 22 or younger but we have this resistance to anyone who hasn't played 100 games as a journeyman somewhere cracking our precious bottom 6/pair.

 

[JA]

In the case of both Schroeder and Shirokov, they weren't good enough. 50-point AHL players don't become 50-point NHL players and they simply weren't tracking as NHLers at lower levels.

Sergei Shirokov had just had his best few weeks ever in the AHL prior to being called up in January 2011. He was trending upward, and had played very well in his brief call-up in 2011 before being stapled to the bench two periods after his great game against the Avalanche.

http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/coach-sergei-shirokov-will-get-an-offensive-role-with-canucks

Coach: Sergei Shirokov will get an offensive role with Canucks
Jason Botchford
Published:
January 17, 2011
Updated:
January 17, 2011 8:14 PM PDT

With the Canucks secondary scoring disintegrating faster than the Atlanta Falcons home field advantage, Russian prospect Sergei Shirokov has been recalled.

In better shape than in training camp, Shirokov has been carrying the Manitoba Moose offensively and was on an AHL-best 12-game points streak, setting a franchise record. The Canucks, who have had only three forwards score in the past seven games, hope it carries over.

Newell Brown, left.

“We see him as a skilled player, an offensive player, to fill in an offensive role,” assistant coach Newell Brown said. “We’ve heard he’s been playing real well. We’ve got good reports about him. He’s had a great attitude. He’s skating real well and producing.”

Concerns about Shirokov’s fitness and his skating have been alleviated since September. Canucks assistant general manager Lorne Henning said he’s improved both with his work off the ice.

Shirokov said he’s a different player than the one who made Vancouver in 2009. Then he played only six games before he was demoted. He’s learned how to backcheck, since. That may come in handy Tuesday.

“I’m harder (on the) backcheck,” Shirokov said. “I started learning last year too. But it’s pretty different for (a) European. This year, I understand all stuff. It’s a little bit easier to me.

“I work every time about my game in the D-zone. I watch tape and the coach told me what I need to do and how I need to play.”

There was no clear indication whom Shirokov will replace in the lineup, but Jeff Tambellini, who hasn’t had a point in 10 games, is as good a candidate as any.

http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/shirokov-shows-improvement-but-gets-quick-ticket-back-to-moose

Shirokov shows improvement but gets quick ticket back to Moose
Ben Kuzma
Published:
January 23, 2011
Updated:
January 23, 2011 7:23 PM PDT

Sergei Shirokov has gone from looking like a pretender to a contender for full-time NHL duty.

After two strong games, it appeared the improving winger might get a long look from the Vancouver Canucks after six shots and scoring on Tuesday in Denver before making a pair of nifty forays on Thursday against San Jose. But he was benched in the third period against the Sharks, didn’t play Saturday against Calgary and is on his way back to the Manitoba Moose — according to his agent Jay Grossman.

This may have as much to do about getting wingers Mikael Samuelsson, Mason Raymond and Jeff Tambellini going than being riled at the 25-year-old Russian. Samuelsson hasn’t scored in 14 games, Tambellini in 13 and Raymond in 11 games. Raymond had six shots in a 4-3 shootout loss to the Flames on Saturday. But it also has a lot to do with the salary cap. The Canucks needed Shirokov’s cap space to get defenceman Lee Sweatt up from the Moose in case the injured Kevin Bieksa (eye) can’t go Monday against Dallas.

Asked if he thinks he now has an NHL game after poor training camp test results placed him in coach Alain Vigneault’s doghouse, Shirokov was refreshingly frank.

“Yeah, for sure,” said Shirokov, who has 33 points (16-17) in 39 games with the Moose. “I feel pretty good right now about my game and my shape. It has improved a lot for me because I know what I need to do on the ice, offensively and defensively and how the system works. We play exactly the same in Manitoba.”

What has been impressive is Shirokov’s improved fitness level and willingness to get to the tough scoring areas and exhibit patience. Against the Sharks, he twice went to the high slot and drew a crowd before directing wristers that were blocked.

“I work all the time on playing the left side and it’s easier for me to be offensive,” added Shirokov. “Sometimes, I play the right side and it’s more difficult, but I like to go to the middle because I think I’ve got a little bit more of a quicker shot than before.”

So, what about not playing? Surprised?

“No,” he shrugged. “They are moving around the guys, so I’m not surprised. It’s a normal process. I just have to wait and work.”

In Manitoba.

He had not yet turned 25 when he was called up. That's a young player who was steadily improving, and who possesses natural talent. I felt very strongly that he would have been on the roster the following season based on his skill set and work ethic. He went on to have his best season ever in the KHL immediately afterward and was subsequently a two-time KHL All-Star.

 

[clunk]

Is it? I seem to recall Willie saying Benning pushed to have Horvat and then Virtanen and McCann make the opening day rosters and that Willie would have preferred to go into the season without any rookies. Don't quote me but I'm certain i've seen this esp for Horvat.

Edit:

Bit different than I recalled but here's the one about Horvat


http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/willie-desjardins-high-on-canucks-young-players/


It isn't 100% clear but it sounds like Willie probably didn't take Horavt without at least some external pressure to do so.

Of course there will be some pressure. His job is on the line. But ultimately, it's up to Willie to play a player and if he doesn't, sitting in the press box is the worst thing for their development, which would happen more often than not if Benning kept a player he didn't want up. GM can of course fire the coach if he doesn't think the coach is doing what he says, but ultimately who plays, and to a lesser extent who's on the roster is up to the coach.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

To be fair to Shirokov, he played well the following season and just wasn't given an opportunity. That game against Colorado was his brightest moment in the NHL, yet he was benched pretty quickly the next game and sent down for the final time a few days later.

So why has no other team bothered with his services?

This is like Mattias Weinhandl or Brandon Reid redux.

 

[CanaFan]

Of course there will be some pressure. His job is on the line. But ultimately, it's up to Willie to play a player and if he doesn't, sitting in the press box is the worst thing for their development, which would happen more often than not if Benning kept a player he didn't want up. GM can of course fire the coach if he doesn't think the coach is doing what he says, but ultimately who plays, and to a lesser extent who's on the roster is up to the coach.

So based on those comments do you think playing Horvat was 100% Willie's decision?

 

[MS]

So why has no other team bothered with his services?

This is like Mattias Weinhandl or Brandon Reid redux.

Yup. It's ridiculous.

He could have chosen to stay and battle for a spot in 2011-12. There would have been openings with Raymond's injury and Torres' departure. He quit. Tough luck.

And again, it isn't like this guy scored 80 points in 50 games or something in the AHL and was utterly dominant. He topped out at something like 56 points in a full season at that level.

There was a time when Marc Crawford scratched Josh Holden after a 3-assist game and it was BS. But when you look at the rest of his career, it should be pretty obvious that he wouldn't have turned into a 10-year top-6 forward if only he'd played the next game. Same with Shirokov.

 

[JA]

Yup. It's ridiculous.

He could have chosen to stay and battle for a spot in 2011-12. There would have been openings with Raymond's injury and Torres' departure. He quit. Tough luck.

And again, it isn't like this guy scored 80 points in 50 games or something in the AHL and was utterly dominant. He topped out at something like 56 points in a full season at that level.

There was a time when Marc Crawford scratched Josh Holden after a 3-assist game and it was BS. But when you look at the rest of his career, it should be pretty obvious that he wouldn't have turned into a 10-year top-6 forward if only he'd played the next game. Same with Shirokov.

That twelve-game point streak was extremely impressive, interrupted only by the call-up. He was named an AHL All-Star in both of his seasons with the Moose. As we have seen since then, he has abundant skill.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Shirokov-off-to-AHL-all-star-game-113294559.html

Shirokov off to AHL all-star game
Tim Campbell
Posted: 01/11/2011 2:03 PM

WINNIPEG - For the second-straight season, forward Sergei Shirokov will represent the Manitoba Moose at the AHL All-Star game.

The selection is richly deserved, Moose coach Claude Noel said this morning.

"He deserves to go," Noel said.h "He’s been real good, played real well and has been hot lately. I think he’s invested in his career."

Shirokov scored in Saturday’s 4-3 overtime win over Hershey, giving him a five-game goals streak.

As the Moose’s leading scorer so far this season with 15 goals and 30 points, Shirokov has been on fire since just before Christmas, with nine goals in the last nine games and a 10-game points streak heading into Thursday night’s home game against Milwaukee.

...

Shirokov turned down a million dollars to play with the Moose. He was on board with spending time in Manitoba, but obviously became frustrated when his work with the Moose led to no opportunity with the Canucks. He fought in court against CSKA Moscow to annul his initial contract so that he could join the Canucks.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/russian-prospect-makes-impression-on-off-ice/article4214697/

Russian prospect makes impression on, off ice
KEVIN WOODLEY
VANCOUVER — Special to The Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Sep. 15, 2009 12:00AM EDT
Last updated Friday, Sep. 18, 2009 3:25AM EDT

Sergei Shirokov sought out a pair of former teammates before leaving a front-line role in his native Russia to start over as a Vancouver Canucks prospect.

The advice he received from Alexander Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin, both onetime linemates during a junior career that produced 13 points in 12 games at two world championships, was simple.

"Go. Try. You'll be happy and successful," Shirokov said with translation help from the Canucks' amateur Russian scout, Sergei Chibisov.

...

But it's been off the ice - first in a Russian courtroom and now in the Canucks' locker room - where the always smiling Shirokov has made his greatest impression.

"Here's a guy that from what I understand speaks very little English, but he was getting involved with his teammates, was trying to talk to the trainers, and was really outgoing," head coach Alain Vigneault said. "That tells us that the kid really wants to be here."

Considering the path Shirokov took to get here, that shouldn't have been in question.

As if leaving family, friends, a starring role and a tax-free $500,000 (all figures U.S.) salary behind wouldn't be hard enough for any 23-year-old, Shirokov had to take his famed Red Army team to court for the right to do so. And he did it despite a frank face-to-face assessment from Canucks senior adviser Stan Smyl that he'll probably start his North American career in the minors, riding buses for $60,000 a season and living in Winnipeg.

"It wasn't that comfortable but all my dreams were to come here," Shirokov said, never losing the permanent grin as he shrugged off reports of pressure tactics from KHL chair Slava Fetisov, and CSKA coach/general manager Sergei Nemchinov.

"NHL now is the best league in the world and every player likes to come over and play NHL."

Few from the KHL do. But even after an arbitrator ruled in favour of KHL regulations that force all players under 28 to re-sign with their current team, Shirokov refused, leading to a one-year suspension. So while fellow arbitration case loser Denis Parshin returned to CSKA, Shirokov joined Florida Panthers prospect Evgeni Dadonov as the only young Russians to leave this summer, joining a Canucks team that drafted him 163rd in 2006.

Smyl, who spent much of a 10-day visit to Moscow last season answering questions from Shirokov about the NHL and Canucks, believes his willingness to leave so much behind is based on an outgoing nature that his new teammates say is already evident in attempts at locker room banter. But he adds it is also a function of a sincere belief he will soon be earning the $875,000 NHL portion of the rookie-maximum contract he signed.

"That's why I came here," Shirokov repeated when asked about expectations.

...

In the AHL, he made $60,000 per year with no certain future. In the KHL, prior to leaving, he made $500,000 and had a secure salary. After being offered another two-way contract from the Canucks at the end of the 2010-11 season, he signed a three-year contract with his hometown club, CSKA Moscow. It had no out-clause. It paid him $2.3 million per year. Of course he wouldn't say no to it.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=86612099&postcount=4

KHL salaries aren't made public. However based on statements of GMs, agents and players, a sport.ru estimated the top 90 salaries in KHL in 2012/2013.

1. Ilya Kovalchuk, SKA - 10.3 million dollars
2. Alexander Radulov, CSKA - 7.5
3. Sergei Zinoviev , "Salavat Yulaev" - 4.7
4-5. Sergei Mozyakin , "Metallurg" Mg - 4.2
4-5. Alexander Perezhogin , "Avangard" - 4.2
6. Vasily Koshechkin , "Metallurg" Mg - 4.1
7. Alexei Morozov , CSKA - 4
8. Roman Cervenka , SKA - 3.9
9. Yevgeny Kuznetsov , "Tractor" - 3.8
10-11. Viktor Tikhonov , SKA - 3.3
10-11. Patrick Thoresen , SKA - 3.3
12-13. Evgeny Medvedev, "Ak Bars" - 3.1
12-13. Alexei Tereshchenko, "Ak Bars" - 3.1
14-16. Ruslan Fedotenko, "Donbass" - 3
14-16. Danis Zaripov, "Metallurg" Mg - 3
14-16. Igor Grigorenko, CSKA - 3
17-21. Sergei Kostitsyn, "Avangard" - 2.8
17-21. Tony Martensson, SKA - 2.8
17-21. Evgeny Biryukov, "Metallurg" Mg - 2.8
17-21. Kevin Dellman SKA - 2.8
17-21. Alexander Frolov, CSKA - 2.8
22. Nikolai Antropov, "Barys" - 2.7
23. Michael Varnakov, "Ak Bars" - 2.6
24-27. Denis Denisov, CSKA - 2.5
24-27. Alexander Popov, "Avangard" - 2.5
24-27. Alexander Burmistrov, "Ak Bars" - 2.5
24-27. Alexander Sweet, "Ak Bars" - 2.5
28-30. Sergei Shirokov, "Avangard" - 2.3
28-30. Stanislav Chistov, "Tractor" - 2.3
28-30. Denis Kokarev, "Dynamo" Moscow - 2.3
31-33. Ilya Nikulin, "Ak Bars" - 2.2
31-33. Konstantin Barulin, "Ak Bars" - 2.2
31-33. Eugene Artyuhin, "Atlas" - 2.2
34-35. Kirill Koltsov, "Salavat Yulaev" - 2.1
34-35. Vadim Shipachyov SKA - 2.1
36-40. Eugene Kets, SKA - 2
36-40. Leo Komarov, "Dynamo" Moscow - 2
36-40. Anton Babchuk, "Salavat Yulaev" - 2
36-40. Igor Makarov, SKA - 2
36-40. Maxim Afinogenov, "Knight" - 2
41-43. Alexander Eremenko, "Dynamo" Moscow - 1.9
41-43. Andrei Kostitsyn, "Tractor" - 1.9
41-43. Tim Stapleton, "Ak Bars" - 1.9
44-45. Denis Platonov, "Metallurg" Mg - 1.8
44-45. Dmitri Kalinin, SKA - 1.8
46-56. Enver Lisin, "Admiral" - 1.7

...

http://canucksarmy.com/2011/7/20/a-conversation-with-sergei-shirokov

AO: Right before the 1st of July the Canucks qualified you. Were you offered a new contract?

SS: Yes. They made me a qualifying offer – a two-way contract. But I didn’t want to sign it. So they traded my negotiation rights to the Panthers.

AO: This summer the Canucks parted ways with Raffi Torres, Jeff Tambellini and Tanner Glass. Plus, Mason Raymond is likely to miss the first part of the season. Don’t you think you would have got another shot to play in the NHL?

SS: I don’t even think about it since I’ve already signed with CSKA. The only thing I've got on my mind right now is the next season. I don’t think about the Canucks anymore. I play for CSKA now.

AO: Had the Canucks won the cup, would you have re-signed with them?

SS: I don’t know. I mean, probably, team management would have taken a different look on certain things. To be perfectly honest with you, I haven’t thought about it. I already made my choice having signed with CSKA.

AO: How much time did it take you to come up with this decision?

SS: Not too long, really. It only took me 3 days to discuss terms of the contract and sign it.

AO: You inked a 3-year deal with CSKA. Is there an out-clause in your contract that will allow you to play in the NHL if there’s going to be a proper offer?

SS: No, there isn’t.

AO: Which means the Panthers made a mistake acquiring the rights for you?

SS: I signed a 3-year deal. We’ll see what happens next. But for the next 3 years I see myself as a CSKA player. I want to achieve something with this club.

After making sacrifices, fighting to leave the KHL, living two years as a minor-league player (while becoming one of the Moose's greater players), and getting no closer to the NHL, Sergei took the safe route of playing at home with job security.

He had a choice after his two years in the AHL: $60,000 per year on a two-way contract or $2.3 million per year in Moscow, the city Sergei that calls home.

 

[CraigBillington]

I asked for one young offensive player who wasn't turned into a checker or chased out of town...

Kesler - checker
Raymond - checker
Hansen - checker
Hodgson - treated like dog ykw by AV from day 1 and jettisoned, respect is a 2-way street
Grabner - jettisoned after 20 games
Schroeder - thown to the wolves and jettisoned
Shirokov - jettisoned the quickest

Zuccarello - played his first full season at the age of 26.. not young
Kreider - stagnanting, looks to be turning into a checker
Hayes - regressing, will probably end up a checker


Poor Shirokov had no chance of cracking a roster Tanner Glass on it. Seriously his love of Glass proves everything I need to say. Deepest team ever? Please. It was so deep with checkers that it scored 5 goals in 7 games when it mattered.

you lost me after you called a 41 goal scorer a 'checker'... but really, when he was drafted, he was drafted as a 3rd line checker. He surpassed that in spades.
Raymond wasn't a checker. He had speed and that was about it, which came in handy on the penalty kill. He generally wasn't strong enough to be considered a checker, but was basically depth playing above his skillset. His career went downhill after breaking his back and hasn't been the same really since. Not AV's fault.
Hansen - to label him just as a 'checker' is dumb. He's a legitimate two way threat. Hands aren't great, but his speed allows him to be a legimate offensive threat in addition to his defensive ability
With Hodgson, you can't blame AV. When Gillis says this "I spent more time on Cody's issues than every other player combined on our team the last three years.", there are problems. AV is no saint in this issue either, but really, he is the boss. You listen to him. To have some 20-22 year old come in and try to whine his way through the roster is undoubtedly going to cause AV and Gillis to react. Ask anyone who is in charge of other people at work, if some 20-22 year old comes in and whines about how they're being deployed and brings in their parents to help in the fight, are you going to make it any easier on them? On that team, what were they going to do? Knock a guy who won the Hart 2 years prior or the defending Selke winner who just scored 40 goals? He deserved third line minutes on that team, to whine about it is all Cody's fault. Like I said though, AV was no saint in his comments about his back injury.
Grabner - when you say 'jettisoned', the logical thing to say was he was dealt to make an improvement on the club. It's what a GM should do. In hindsight, the deal backlashed on teh Canucks but at the time, Ballard was an up-and-coming defenseman and Gillis paid up for him. I'd say Florida had the worse asset management regarding him.
Schroeder was not a good NHL hockey player. He had his chances and is continually failing. We've seen over the years why he fell so hard in the draft and that's because he was unable to bring what other smaller, successful NHL players have brought. Had nothing to do with AV or management. He was going to fail no matter who drafted him.
Like it was pointed out, Shirokov wasn't going to crack one of the most talented NHL rosters ever put together. Had nothing to do with the coach.
Kreider stagnating should have nothing on AV. Frankly put, he isn't that smart of a player. He's fast, hard working, has skill and is physical but if he can't put it all together or at least do it consistently, that's an issue between the player's ears, nothing to do with AV.
I think last year's Kevin Hayes is the Kevin Hayes we should have been seeing. He isn't elite, he's nowhere near it. Given his scouting reports, I think it's actually surprising to see him be a 45 point scorer as a rookie. I would have expected him to plateau into the production he put up last year. Again, not AV's fault he needs lots of work.
I'll give you Zuccarello. He wasn't very young when he came to the NHL.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that AV doesn't ruin young players' careers. These players often walked into a situation that wasn't favourable to them, created their own issues or they simply weren't good enough to maximize whatever potential was originally thought of them.
And yes, that 2011 team was one of the best ever. President's Trophy, lead the league in goals, goals against, power play and penalty kill. Only one other team had ever done that, which was one of the late 70's Habs teams that absolutely destroyed everything in their sights.

Your argument that he destroys young players' careers is poor at best. It seems you looked at their stats and didn't see a point per game or first liners so you discount them as checkers.

 

[clunk]

So based on those comments do you think playing Horvat was 100% Willie's decision?

I think Horvat playing was his own decision because he earned it.

 

[CanaFan]

I think Horvat playing was his own decision because he earned it.

“Bo (Horvat) paved the way last year,†Desjardins said on Sportsnet 590 The Fan. “I wasn’t crazy on a 19-year-old playing. he did such a good job for us.

Sure sounds like it wasn't all his decision.

 

[iloveloov*]

you lost me after you called a 41 goal scorer a 'checker'... but really, when he was drafted, he was drafted as a 3rd line checker. He surpassed that in spades.
Raymond wasn't a checker. He had speed and that was about it, which came in handy on the penalty kill. He generally wasn't strong enough to be considered a checker, but was basically depth playing above his skillset. His career went downhill after breaking his back and hasn't been the same really since. Not AV's fault.
Hansen - to label him just as a 'checker' is dumb. He's a legitimate two way threat. Hands aren't great, but his speed allows him to be a legimate offensive threat in addition to his defensive ability
With Hodgson, you can't blame AV. When Gillis says this "I spent more time on Cody's issues than every other player combined on our team the last three years.", there are problems. AV is no saint in this issue either, but really, he is the boss. You listen to him. To have some 20-22 year old come in and try to whine his way through the roster is undoubtedly going to cause AV and Gillis to react. Ask anyone who is in charge of other people at work, if some 20-22 year old comes in and whines about how they're being deployed and brings in their parents to help in the fight, are you going to make it any easier on them? On that team, what were they going to do? Knock a guy who won the Hart 2 years prior or the defending Selke winner who just scored 40 goals? He deserved third line minutes on that team, to whine about it is all Cody's fault. Like I said though, AV was no saint in his comments about his back injury.
Grabner - when you say 'jettisoned', the logical thing to say was he was dealt to make an improvement on the club. It's what a GM should do. In hindsight, the deal backlashed on teh Canucks but at the time, Ballard was an up-and-coming defenseman and Gillis paid up for him. I'd say Florida had the worse asset management regarding him.
Schroeder was not a good NHL hockey player. He had his chances and is continually failing. We've seen over the years why he fell so hard in the draft and that's because he was unable to bring what other smaller, successful NHL players have brought. Had nothing to do with AV or management. He was going to fail no matter who drafted him.
Like it was pointed out, Shirokov wasn't going to crack one of the most talented NHL rosters ever put together. Had nothing to do with the coach.
Kreider stagnating should have nothing on AV. Frankly put, he isn't that smart of a player. He's fast, hard working, has skill and is physical but if he can't put it all together or at least do it consistently, that's an issue between the player's ears, nothing to do with AV.
I think last year's Kevin Hayes is the Kevin Hayes we should have been seeing. He isn't elite, he's nowhere near it. Given his scouting reports, I think it's actually surprising to see him be a 45 point scorer as a rookie. I would have expected him to plateau into the production he put up last year. Again, not AV's fault he needs lots of work.
I'll give you Zuccarello. He wasn't very young when he came to the NHL.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that AV doesn't ruin young players' careers. These players often walked into a situation that wasn't favourable to them, created their own issues or they simply weren't good enough to maximize whatever potential was originally thought of them.
And yes, that 2011 team was one of the best ever. President's Trophy, lead the league in goals, goals against, power play and penalty kill. Only one other team had ever done that, which was one of the late 70's Habs teams that absolutely destroyed everything in their sights.

Your argument that he destroys young players' careers is poor at best. It seems you looked at their stats and didn't see a point per game or first liners so you discount them as checkers.

My argument was he's allergic to young offensive minded players, not that goalpost moving strawman you've set up. His MO for young players is if you can't cut it in the bottom six as a mucking checker you won't get any offensive opportunities. Kesler, Raymond, and Hansen were all defensive checkers when they came into the league and only got offensive opportunities because of their 2 way games. A young player without a strong 2 way game got stapled to the bench by AV, without fail. Mario Bliznak got twice as many games as Shirokov that year for that reason.

He thought he could get away with it because the 1st line was so dominant offensively that he could have 3 checking lines behind them. Well that blew up in his face when the scoring dried up in the finals because he dressed players like Tanner Glass over offensive weapons like Shirokov he thought he didn't need.

It seems like I just looked at their stats? Quite to the contrary, someone looking at their stats would conclude them to be top 6 players and therefore not checkers - which is what you seem to have done. I don't need to look at any of their stats because I've watched most of their NHL games and I know the style of game they've played. All 3 were checkers first and foremost in their younger years and any offense they produced was icing on the cake.

The rest of what you said is just revisionism and "nothing is AV's fault" so I won't even bother responding except to say the 2011 was not one of the best teams ever.. Maybe in the regular season but in the playoffs they were a hair away from being eliminated in the first round and they got demolished in the finals. Goaltending kept them in most games and when it didn't they faltered.

 

[LeftCoast]

My argument was he's allergic to young offensive minded players, not that goalpost moving strawman you've set up. His MO for young players is if you can't cut it in the bottom six as a mucking checker you won't get any offensive opportunities. Kesler, Raymond, and Hansen were all defensive checkers when they came into the league and only got offensive opportunities because of their 2 way games. A young player without a strong 2 way game got stapled to the bench by AV, without fail. Mario Bliznak got twice as many games as Shirokov that year for that reason.

I think you have to factor in the state of the team. A team that has legitimate Stanley Cup aspirations and is competing for the President Cup has a lot less room for rookie mistakes that a team that is hoping to make the playoffs. A bubble team has far less to lose and far more to gain in taking chances with unproven players in pivotal roles. A coach of a championship focused team can't afford to take those risks.

 

[iloveloov*]

I think you have to factor in the state of the team. A team that has legitimate Stanley Cup aspirations and is competing for the President Cup has a lot less room for rookie mistakes that a team that is hoping to make the playoffs. A bubble team has far less to lose and far more to gain in taking chances with unproven players in pivotal roles. A coach of a championship focused team can't afford to take those risks.

I don't necessarily blame him for thinking that strategy would work but it didn't, he put all of his eggs in one basket which blew up in his face, and you're just making excuses. Wasting roster spots so that he could give Glass and Oreskivich 5 minutes of ice time to be useless instead of offensively capable players turned out to be a terrible decision when the scoring dried up.

 

[RobertKron]

I don't necessarily blame him for thinking that strategy would work but it didn't, he put all of his eggs in one basket which blew up in his face, and you're just making excuses. Wasting roster spots so that he could give Glass and Oreskivich 5 minutes of ice time to be useless instead of offensively capable players turned out to be a terrible decision when the scoring dried up.

Vigneault's strategy certainly worked.