Canucks Managerial Thread III

[Intangibos]

Let's be honest very few defended this summer and the ones that did weren't even defending they were waiting to see what the team looked like when the puck dropped, and the complaining was nonstop

I disagree, there are a few avid Benning supports here to which he can do no wrong. There certainly aren't many, I agree with that, but the ones that are here are pretty outspoken. It's moved on past Benning being bad at his job to "these assets don't matter anyway". So now the argument isn't even directly about Benning, but some of us saying that ever asset has value, where as the supports say they don't matter at all.

My argument is that nickels and dimes add up. These assets aren't going to break us on their own but they certainly add up quicker than I think some people expect. The reason why I bring up people like Lack is because the whole goaltending situation is an excellent example of not only lost value in the trade (in my opinion), but an example of missed potential value with the cap space. I didn't like Gillis moving Grabner over Raymond, but it wasn't a big deal because A. it wasn't a regular occurrence with him and B. he had the right idea when he made the deals. So, again, it's not the Lack trade that matters, it's the Lack trade in addition to all the other moves he's made. Lack just comes up quite often because he is one of the more recent poor moves. Garrison is probably the worst trade thus far but we moved on from that one relatively quickly (although he is brought up occasionally) because we were willing to give Benning the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, we're just not anymore.

Not only that, but the majority of us predicted when Miller was signed that it would lead to us losing Lack for next to nothing, and of course it did. It's not like we're just being reactionary here, we saw this coming for an entire year. So for an entire year we were hoping and hoping that Lack would get his shot to start so we don't lose him. Miller gets injured, Lack carries us to the playoffs. We think nice, maybe we'll get to dump Miller, keep Lack and get some cap space (and admittedly keep the better personality, though that's absolutely not even close to the driving factor). Nope! Lack gets marketed as a "backup" and gets the worst return of all goalies by a pretty fair margin. Ugh, okay, that really suck and we're upset, it hurts. We ***** about it some, we saw it coming though, maybe nobody wanted Miller? Nope! Benning says at the summit that he had offers on Miller. Ouch.

I'm also not sure what the problem is. This is the managerial thread, we're discussing managerial moves. There are only so many managerial moves to discuss, is there something you would prefer us to talk about in regards to management?

 

[Verviticus]

^^ well I think you guys are gonna be angry for a LONG time.

good! i know this. now im waiting for the stragglers to step into the light and accept that the only reactions to benning's tenure so far are rage or apathy

 

[coldsteel79]

I disagree, there are a few avid Benning supports here to which he can do no wrong. There certainly aren't many, I agree with that, but the ones that are here are pretty outspoken. It's moved on past Benning being bad at his job to "these assets don't matter anyway". So now the argument isn't even directly about Benning, but some of us saying that ever asset has value, where as the supports say they don't matter at all.

My argument is that nickels and dimes add up. These assets aren't going to break us on their own but they certainly add up quicker than I think some people expect. The reason why I bring up people like Lack is because the whole goaltending situation is an excellent example of not only lost value in the trade (in my opinion), but an example of missed potential value with the cap space. I didn't like Gillis moving Grabner over Raymond, but it wasn't a big deal because A. it wasn't a regular occurrence with him and B. he had the right idea when he made the deals. So, again, it's not the Lack trade that matters, it's the Lack trade in addition to all the other moves he's made. Lack just comes up quite often because he is one of the more recent poor moves. Garrison is probably the worst trade thus far but we moved on from that one relatively quickly (although he is brought up occasionally) because we were willing to give Benning the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, we're just not anymore. Not only that, but the majority of us predicted when Miller was signed that it would lead to us losing Lack for next to nothing, and of course it did. It's not like we're just being reactionary here, we saw this coming for an entire year.

I'm also not sure what the problem is. This is the managerial thread, we're discussing managerial moves. There are only so many managerial moves to discuss, is there something you would prefer us to talk about in regards to management?

What was the original trade garrison squashed with his ntc? Was it to St. Louis?

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I'm really glad you brought this up as I don't think a lot of people realize that you can't separate the two.

In construction, if you're going to build a house, there's a lot of small stuff that you need to do to ensure the house you build doesn't collapse.

In sports, salary cap management, contract management, asset management are all equally as important as talent scouting, drafting and coaching.

Having a good on-ice product with a crappy salary cap structure is exactly the same as having a really nice looking house built with plywood.

Success can only achieved if you get the details right. Yeah, you can get lucky and Boeser could turn out to be the next Gretzky but luck is not a sustainable way to achieve success.

I've never seen a house built without the use of plywood

 

[Intangibos]

What was the original trade garrison squashed with his ntc? Was it to St. Louis?

Yeah, St. Louis, not sure on the return though. It's one of those things where I guess "the idea" was the make room for Sbisa, because Benning sees him as a top 4 guy (at least in a few years). Unfortunately not only has that not happened, and probably won't happen, but we didn't get much for Garrison. If we got good value for Garrison, while I may not agree on Sbisa, at least we wouldn't have lost an asset for very little. That's the problem with dumping players for nothing and then hoping the guy you overpaid to acquire is better. If they're not you're ****ed, and if they are, well you could have that player anyway with extra assets to play with.


THIS MAKES ME SO SAD

 

[coldsteel79]

Wasn't it berglund?

 

[VC]

Wasn't it berglund?

That is what I recall, would have been a much better return. I still like the idea of trading Garrison, just not for the horrible return that he netted. A 2nd, bah.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Hey look, Matt Duchene is being shopped and Johansen might be shopped as well. Oh wait, we don't have the cap space to bring them on because our idiot GM decided to waste cap space on an older and worse goalie like Miller when we had a better, younger, cheaper goalie in Lack, and we're wasting $3.6M on Sbisa, $4.4M on Sutter, $2.65M on Dorsett. But that's okay because cap space doesn't matter when you're not a contender, so we don't need to have cap space to go out and get good hockey players, we're content with overpaying bad hockey players. **** off!

 

[Cupless44]

Let's be honest very few defended this summer and the ones that did weren't even defending they were waiting to see what the team looked like when the puck dropped, and the complaining was nonstop

You are quite right.

I came here with the intent on trying to recognize the positive elements and the negative elements regarding the Canucks

The only reason I have leaned towards being a "Benning Defender" is because the constant negativity is way over the top excessive. Every single little thing is trashed from the way Benning talks to replacing the trainer. Just gets so transparent and tedious.

Some Benning bashers are so deep into their mission they cannot recognize anything positive and actually slant things back to their negative narrative.

Ex.

Kassian... so much drama and condemnation of Benning for trading this talented young power forward who "deserved to be in the top 6"....when the facts came out that Kassians life is off the rails and Benning did the right thing by getting him away from the team after the team tried to work with him...then it is twisted to Benning handled it wrong...he should have worked with poor Zack more....he shouldnt have traded him...he should have done this..he should have done that

McCann and Virtanen....for the first time in Canuck history 2 junior age players have made the team as 19 year olds. Pretty exciting stuff for most of us..But instead of being happy about it and giving Benning credit for these 2 players from his very first draft it gets twisted around to blaming management because they are not getting the exact amount of ice time that some here think

It just never ends.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The bar is lowered when u havnt made the 2nd round in 5 years

2012: 1st round exit = people angry, let's keep the core though, all we need is a 3C even though we can't score, just need that 3C.
2013: 1st round exit = meh, forget scoring, still need that 3C. Fire AV though, we need a better coach too, and that 3C.
2014: Miss the playoffs = all Torts's fault. Shouldn't have fired Gillis. He didn't get us that 3C, our scoring sucks and that 3C would have helped, but Gillis iz gud.
2015: 1st round exit = Zomg Benning is awesome!

Uhhh...do you see what's wrong with this picture?

 

[Nuckles]

Hey look, Matt Duchene is being shopped and Johansen might be shopped as well. Oh wait, we don't have the cap space to bring them on because our idiot GM decided to waste cap space on an older and worse goalie like Miller when we had a better, younger, cheaper goalie in Lack, and we're wasting $3.6M on Sbisa, $4.4M on Sutter, $2.65M on Dorsett. But that's okay because cap space doesn't matter when you're not a contender, so we don't need to have cap space to go out and get good hockey players, we're content with overpaying bad hockey players. **** off!

*cough* And $2.5M for Prust. We could have also likely signed Bartkowski for cheaper.

 

[y2kcanucks]

*cough* And $2.5M for Prust. We could have also likely signed Bartkowski for cheaper.

Or not even bother with Bartkowski. The guy blows.

It's a legitimate fear of mine that Benning would do something stupid like trading Shinkaruk for Khokhlachev.

 

[PM]

That is what I recall, would have been a much better return. I still like the idea of trading Garrison, just not for the horrible return that he netted. A 2nd, bah.

Berglund is pretty meh, and isn't he injured right now? I don't see any stats for him this year anywhere. His 50 point season was clearly an anomaly and he's basically a third-liner now. I'd actually prefer the 2nd rounder over him if we didn't immediately give it away for Vey but would much rather have Garrison.

Garrison > 2nd rounder > Berglund > Vey

 

[Hit the post]

That is what I recall, would have been a much better return. I still like the idea of trading Garrison, just not for the horrible return that he netted. A 2nd, bah.

Nothing wrong with the reasoning behind trading Garrison (eg., logjam of left side D - and his cap hit). Still don't mind even dealing the 2nd round pick for Vey (decent gamble at the time).

It's the insanity of using that saved up cap space on a *left side D* (who is inferior in pretty much every way) on Pizza.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

2012: 1st round exit = people angry, let's keep the core though, all we need is a 3C even though we can't score, just need that 3C.
2013: 1st round exit = meh, forget scoring, still need that 3C. Fire AV though, we need a better coach too, and that 3C.
2014: Miss the playoffs = all Torts's fault. Shouldn't have fired Gillis. He didn't get us that 3C, our scoring sucks and that 3C would have helped, but Gillis iz gud.
2015: 1st round exit = Zomg Benning is awesome!

Uhhh...do you see what's wrong with this picture?

what's wrong with this picture is some people think it's 2011 and that the expectation for the team is the same

 

[y2kcanucks]

what's wrong with this picture is some people think it's 2011 and that the expectation for the team is the same

Well that's the first problem then, because if that's what you think of the expectations some people have you're 100% wrong.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Well that's the first problem then, because if that's what you think of the expectations some people have you're 100% wrong.

Clearly expectations are lower for this team than in 2012, which was why so many were simply happy to make the playoffs last year. Pretty simple, I don't know why you don't get it.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Clearly expectations are lower for this team than in 2012, which was why so many were simply happy to make the playoffs last year. Pretty simple, I don't know why you don't get it.

Because last year we had a veteran team. The same veteran core that we had in 2012 and 2013 and 2014.

Even this year, looking at our key roster spots are heavily littered with veterans. Sedin, Sedin, Vrbata, Burrows, Sutter are 5 of our regular top 6 forwards. Then you got an aging, declining goalie in net who was kept over a better, younger, cheaper goalie, and it's hard to see where the vision for this team is at all.

I personally don't care if we make the playoffs this year or not. What I want is a team that brings in youth and actually plays that youth (none of this 9-10 minutes per game and scratched every couple of games ******** that we're getting), and I want a well managed team that is managing the cap very well, and clearly is making a transition to youth. Trading away a goalie who bridges the old core with the new core, in order to keep an overpaid below average goalie like Miller is not the direction we should be headed in. I don't know what you don't get about this.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Because last year we had a veteran team. The same veteran core that we had in 2012 and 2013 and 2014.

Even this year, looking at our key roster spots are heavily littered with veterans. Sedin, Sedin, Vrbata, Burrows, Sutter are 5 of our regular top 6 forwards. Then you got an aging, declining goalie in net who was kept over a better, younger, cheaper goalie, and it's hard to see where the vision for this team is at all.

I personally don't care if we make the playoffs this year or not. What I want is a team that brings in youth and actually plays that youth (none of this 9-10 minutes per game and scratched every couple of games ******** that we're getting), and I want a well managed team that is managing the cap very well, and clearly is making a transition to youth. Trading away a goalie who bridges the old core with the new core, in order to keep an overpaid below average goalie like Miller is not the direction we should be headed in. I don't know what you don't get about this.

Something happens when your teams best players were drafted two decades ago- your team declines- rapidly- especially if there isn't drafting and development to supplement that aging group.

Shouldn't be hard to come to this conclusion. There are no easy solutions other than to scout, draft and develop better, aka the slow fix.

 

[The Drop]

Hey look, Matt Duchene is being shopped and Johansen might be shopped as well. Oh wait, we don't have the cap space to bring them on because our idiot GM decided to waste cap space on an older and worse goalie like Miller when we had a better, younger, cheaper goalie in Lack, and we're wasting $3.6M on Sbisa, $4.4M on Sutter, $2.65M on Dorsett. But that's okay because cap space doesn't matter when you're not a contender, so we don't need to have cap space to go out and get good hockey players, we're content with overpaying bad hockey players. **** off!

Boom

 

[y2kcanucks]

Something happens when your teams best players were drafted two decades ago- your team declines- rapidly- especially if there isn't drafting and development to supplement that aging group.

Shouldn't be hard to come to this conclusion. There are no easy solutions other than to scout, draft and develop better, aka the slow fix.

Or you could completely ignore what I said.

Hey look, that overpaid $6M goalie cost us another game.

Sure glad it's Miller costing us games and not Lack, otherwise Markstrom might feel bad for some reason.

 

[racerjoe]

Berglund is pretty meh, and isn't he injured right now? I don't see any stats for him this year anywhere. His 50 point season was clearly an anomaly and he's basically a third-liner now. I'd actually prefer the 2nd rounder over him if we didn't immediately give it away for Vey but would much rather have Garrison.

Garrison > 2nd rounder > Berglund > Vey

If we got Berglund the thought was we wouldn't have asked for bonino. Change what we "needed" in that trade. All speculation. Who knows.

 

[Kickassguy]

Something happens when your teams best players were drafted two decades ago- your team declines- rapidly- especially if there isn't drafting and development to supplement that aging group.

Shouldn't be hard to come to this conclusion. There are no easy solutions other than to scout, draft and develop better, aka the slow fix.

Or make a move when another team is stupid enough to shop a star player. But you need cap space for that.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Or make a move when another team is stupid enough to shop a star player. But you need cap space for that.

But I thought cap space doesn't matter unless you're a contender?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Hey look, Matt Duchene is being shopped and Johansen might be shopped as well. Oh wait, we don't have the cap space to bring them on because our idiot GM decided to waste cap space on an older and worse goalie like Miller when we had a better, younger, cheaper goalie in Lack, and we're wasting $3.6M on Sbisa, $4.4M on Sutter, $2.65M on Dorsett. But that's okay because cap space doesn't matter when you're not a contender, so we don't need to have cap space to go out and get good hockey players, we're content with overpaying bad hockey players. **** off!

Thing is, we couldn't afford them even if we did have the cap space. Columbus and Colorado are not going to gift away either. So unless we're prepared to offer Horvat++, it's a moot point.