Post-Game Talk: Canucks lose 3-2 || <Loud noises>

[biturbo19]

How was Hutton +1 while Sbisa was a -8 in differential?

Line changes.

Hutton fairly consistently seems to get off before Sbisa in situations where a full change isn't happening (especially at home where it makes sense to prioritize getting the LD off first for 2/3 periods as that's the longer change that takes them further out of position - you change LD first on a dump-in for example). Which is fine. But it means Sbisa is out there with a new and fairly random partner for a time. And often, the way the Canucks tend to change...it's a bit discombobulated and many times results in a negative corsi event because the puck is already coming back the Canucks way, or at the very least...is in opposing possession or soon to be turned back up ice on a throwaway dump-in while the team changes.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Just great work WTG

 

[Edo]

I would almost take John Tortorella back over WD. Prust/Dorsett were being double shifted at points throughout the game. His deployment of lines, and D pairings is just ridiculous. I looked at Washington, and noticed how Trotz rolled his big guys after every penalty kill, and attempted to give them favourable match ups along with offensive starts.

Baertschi is one of the guys whose performances rises/falls with confidence. It's impossible to gain playing 8 minutes and being benched for an entire period in favour of goons. Granted, Prust/Dorsett did have good games, but no team ever should win having those guys stand out.

Also, down a goal, you would think, with a minute left, the coach would call a timeout to rest his big guys to send them out again and attempt to score. But nope.

Both Benning/WD seem to be favouring their own guys, and don't seem to notice or care how bad they are. It's actually pretty amusing. The organization is doing it's best to go full Edmonton.

Watching the game live was pretty depressing and it's sad to see where the NHL is going. Even thinking about expansion and diluting the talent even further is a sad thought.

 

[vanuck]

I remember Sbisa and Bart getting caught out there on a partial change. That probably did it.

Thanks, that would explain it as I missed the majority of this one.

Edit: looks like they are offensive zone from Botch's article. 0 offensive zone starts for McCann? But why?

Because Willie D.

what's so hard about going

big line #1 vs sedins
big line #2 vs sutter line
other line vs kid line / 4th line
and just rotating those last two lines instead of cutting yourself down to three lines as well

Not to mention with last change he has the advantage at home. But logic, meet open window.

Canucks placed a lot of false hope that Vey could fill the void but clearly were wrong in that thought. Any hope of having a 4 line team went right out the door with the failure of the Vey experiment.

It's funny that you mention Vey here because as bad as he looked here I'd like to see them give McCann the exact same offensive opportunities. One has been spoonfed, the other hasn't.

This is up there with the Sestito wink for me. Bourdon too.

All is right with the world.

 

[vanuck]

Line changes.

Hutton fairly consistently seems to get off before Sbisa in situations where a full change isn't happening (especially at home where it makes sense to prioritize getting the LD off first for 2/3 periods as that's the longer change that takes them further out of position - you change LD first on a dump-in for example). Which is fine. But it means Sbisa is out there with a new and fairly random partner for a time. And often, the way the Canucks tend to change...it's a bit discombobulated and many times results in a negative corsi event because the puck is already coming back the Canucks way, or at the very least...is in opposing possession or soon to be turned back up ice on a throwaway dump-in while the team changes.

Thanks, this makes sense too. Would you say they only got caught once once or did it keep occurring?

 

[biturbo19]

Alright, I collected all the clips where McCann was part of the breakout of his own zone.

https://streamable.com/5dqx
https://streamable.com/p9ez
https://streamable.com/vd87

7 times was he part of the breakout, I watched all his shifts and he wasn't hemmed in once.

These 3 are the issue with McCann. Where he's a liability.

1.Tries to make a "cute" move at his own blueline, turns the puck over. Gets completely muscled out of a puck battle. Evacuates his responsibility to retrieve a stick. Scoring chance against.

2.As delicious a Pizza as i've ever seen. Be honest here, you'd throw Sbisa into the eternal hellfires of damnation for a turnover like that.

3.Completely gets his pocket picked by a very good player in Backstrom...but nonetheless, as a Center...puck management doesn't always need to be pretty. That's an instance McCann needs to be way harder on the puck and firmer with his stick...whatever it takes to make sure that puck at least clears the blueline.


And that's just the ones where he was involved in the breakout.

The ones where he isn't involved are often just as important. As they can be opportunities where he could be.


I like McCann, and i think he's got something to offer here. He's a 19 year old undersized kid in the best league in the world. He's gonna makes mistakes, and at times, he's gonna get bullied physically by grown ass men on the other team.

I hate the way his ice was managed tonight. But he's definitely having some very apparent issues in his own zone...when it comes to physical play especially right now.

 

[biturbo19]

Thanks, this makes sense too. Would you say they only got caught once once or did it keep occurring?

I'd say it's a fairly common issue. And not strictly related to this particular game even.


Obviously one such event can yield multiple negative "corsi events" in a relatively narrow time span if the team gets caught out there on a partial-change with tired and/or unfamiliar players out there together.

 

[vanuck]

3.Completely gets his pocket picked by a very good player in Backstrom...but nonetheless, as a Center...puck management doesn't always need to be pretty. That's an instance McCann needs to be way harder on the puck and firmer with his stick...whatever it takes to make sure that puck at least clears the blueline.

I don't really take issue with the first 2 but this one I actually thought Prust put him in a bit of a tough spot with that drop pass when there were all these Caps forwards so close to him. He was probably expecting Prust to just chip it out of the zone and live to fight another day.

Overall though I'd still like to see WD give him more opportunities. On the PP, not giving him 0% zone starts...

 

[biturbo19]

I don't really take issue with the first 2 but this one I actually thought Prust put him in a bit of a tough spot with that drop pass when there were all these Caps forwards so close to him. He was probably expecting Prust to just chip it out of the zone and live to fight another day.

Overall though I'd still like to see WD give him more opportunities. On the PP, not giving him 0% zone starts...

That's fair in a sense.

But that's part of the issue in plugging McCann in with these sort of grinders.


When you're playing with guys like Dorsett and Prust...that sort of play is one you've gotta expect, and just make the ugly chip into the neutral zone and regroup on.

Prust absolutely puts him in a "tough spot" in that it's a quick play to read and there's not much opportunity to make a real play on it...but it's absolutely chipped right into McCann's wheelhouse as it should be there for a solid clear. That's a play Cracknell makes in his sleep. Just bash it up ice (preferably along the wall) and reset in your neutral zone defensive posture (forecheck if opportunity presents). That's what a 4th line is expected to do (this ain't the Sedins out there tic-tac-toeing).

But it's an odd match, expecting McCann to play that way. He's a skill player and he's gonna want to make skill plays. Putting him out with Prust and Dorsett complicates things a ton, and it goes well beyond just what they can do in the offensive zone. These are guys who play an appropriately very different style of game in all 3 zones from what McCann is capable of.


Still though...it all comes down to awareness and experience. And McCann still doesn't really have that at an NHL level. Entirely fair as a kid playing in the NHL...but still a reality of the situation.

 

[Verviticus]

yknow what, i hope willie stays all season. between sbisa, dorsett, prust and his line matching, he's probably individually responsible for 2-3 losses we otherwise wouldn't have. throw him out with management instead of before

 

[vanuck]

That's fair in a sense.

But that's part of the issue in plugging McCann in with these sort of grinders.


When you're playing with guys like Dorsett and Prust...that sort of play is one you've gotta expect, and just make the ugly chip into the neutral zone and regroup on.

Prust absolutely puts him in a "tough spot" in that it's a quick play to read and there's not much opportunity to make a real play on it...but it's absolutely chipped right into McCann's wheelhouse as it should be there for a solid clear. That's a play Cracknell makes in his sleep. Just bash it up ice (preferably along the wall) and reset in your neutral zone defensive posture (forecheck if opportunity presents). That's what a 4th line is expected to do (this ain't the Sedins out there tic-tac-toeing).

But couldn't you say that Prust should be the one to make that clear as he was first to the puck anyway?

But it's an odd match, expecting McCann to play that way. He's a skill player and he's gonna want to make skill plays. Putting him out with Prust and Dorsett complicates things a ton, and it goes well beyond just what they can do in the offensive zone. These are guys who play an appropriately very different style of game in all 3 zones from what McCann is capable of.


Still though...it all comes down to awareness and experience. And McCann still doesn't really have that at an NHL level. Entirely fair as a kid playing in the NHL...but still a reality of the situation.

I agree with this. Ultimately I think he wasn't fully ready anyway even before all this, but it'd be nice to know for sure at least.

 

[me2]

Line changes.

Hutton fairly consistently seems to get off before Sbisa in situations where a full change isn't happening (especially at home where it makes sense to prioritize getting the LD off first for 2/3 periods as that's the longer change that takes them further out of position - you change LD first on a dump-in for example). Which is fine. But it means Sbisa is out there with a new and fairly random partner for a time. And often, the way the Canucks tend to change...it's a bit discombobulated and many times results in a negative corsi event because the puck is already coming back the Canucks way, or at the very least...is in opposing possession or soon to be turned back up ice on a throwaway dump-in while the team changes.

http://dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_...016:R:1&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go


HUTTON
65.15% EV 27 HUTTON,BEN - 5 SBISA,LUCA
12.12% EV 44 BARTKOWSKI,MATT - 27 HUTTON,BEN
6.06% EV 23 EDLER,ALEXANDER - 27 HUTTON,BEN
4.55% EV 2 HAMHUIS,DAN - 27 HUTTON,BEN
4.55% EV 27 HUTTON,BEN - 8 TANEV,CHRISTOPHER
4.55% PP 27 HUTTON,BEN - 8 TANEV,CHRISTOPHER
1.52% SH 23 EDLER,ALEXANDER - 27 HUTTON,BEN
1.52% PP 23 EDLER,ALEXANDER - 27 HUTTON,BEN

SBISA
72.88% EV 27 HUTTON,BEN - 5 SBISA,LUCA
8.47% EV 2 HAMHUIS,DAN - 5 SBISA,LUCA
6.78% EV 23 EDLER,ALEXANDER - 5 SBISA,LUCA
6.78% EV 44 BARTKOWSKI,MATT - 5 SBISA,LUCA
3.39% SH 2 HAMHUIS,DAN - 5 SBISA,LUCA
1.69% PP 2 HAMHUIS,DAN - 5 SBISA,LUCA

I'm trying to find a good visual shift chart

 

[me2]

Sbisa On|Sbisa Off|Hutton On|Hutton Off
||1:51|2:16
2:56|3:51|3:18|3:51
4:27|5:14|4:27|5:16
6:02 | 6:49 ||
||7:21|8:11
|| 9:38 | 10:59
10:59|11:18||
13:08|13:48|13:08|14:12
16:09|17:14|16:16|17:14
18:25|18:58|18:25|18:58
19:55|20:00||
1:32|3:37|1:32|3:11
4:37|5:30|4:37|5:30
8:17|9:05|8:17|9:05
|| 10:02 | 10:56
10:56|12:01||
12:23|12:58|12:23|12:58
14:49|16:28|14:49|14:51
||15:12|16:28
18:14|19:39|17:51|18:41
||19:55|20:00
0:43 | 2:00 ||
||2:00|2:51
2:51|3:28||
4:54|5:42|4:54|5:42
7:35|7:55|7:42|7:55
9:09|9:21|9:06|9:46
9:45|9:46||
10:03|10:33|10:03|10:33
11:57|12:45|11:41|12:45
14:24|14:54|14:05|14:54
||17:45|18:24
||19:16|20:00

 

[biturbo19]

http://dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_...016:R:1&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go


HUTTON
65.15% EV 27 HUTTON,BEN - 5 SBISA,LUCA
12.12% EV 44 BARTKOWSKI,MATT - 27 HUTTON,BEN
6.06% EV 23 EDLER,ALEXANDER - 27 HUTTON,BEN
4.55% EV 2 HAMHUIS,DAN - 27 HUTTON,BEN
4.55% EV 27 HUTTON,BEN - 8 TANEV,CHRISTOPHER
4.55% PP 27 HUTTON,BEN - 8 TANEV,CHRISTOPHER
1.52% SH 23 EDLER,ALEXANDER - 27 HUTTON,BEN
1.52% PP 23 EDLER,ALEXANDER - 27 HUTTON,BEN

SBISA
72.88% EV 27 HUTTON,BEN - 5 SBISA,LUCA
8.47% EV 2 HAMHUIS,DAN - 5 SBISA,LUCA
6.78% EV 23 EDLER,ALEXANDER - 5 SBISA,LUCA
6.78% EV 44 BARTKOWSKI,MATT - 5 SBISA,LUCA
3.39% SH 2 HAMHUIS,DAN - 5 SBISA,LUCA
1.69% PP 2 HAMHUIS,DAN - 5 SBISA,LUCA

I'm trying to find a good visual shift chart

Sbisa On|Sbisa Off|Hutton On|Hutton Off
||1:51|2:16
2:56|3:51|3:18|3:51
4:27|5:14|4:27|5:16
6:02|6:49||
||7:21|8:11
||9:38|10:59
10:59|11:18||
13:08|13:48|13:08|14:12
16:09|17:14|16:16|17:14
18:25|18:58|18:25|18:58
19:55|20:00||
1:32|3:37|1:32|3:11
4:37|5:30|4:37|5:30
8:17|9:05|8:17|9:05
||10:02|10:56
10:56|12:01||
12:23|12:58|12:23|12:58
14:49|16:28|14:49|14:51
||15:12|16:28
18:14|19:39|17:51|18:41
||19:55|20:00
0:43|2:00||
||2:00|2:51
2:51|3:28||
4:54|5:42|4:54|5:42
7:35|7:55|7:42|7:55
9:09|9:21|9:06|9:46
9:45|9:46||
10:03|10:33|10:03|10:33
11:57|12:45|11:41|12:45
14:24|14:54|14:05|14:54
||17:45|18:24
||19:16|20:00

I don't know how much confidence to put into these numbers...but i think it pretty much illustrates the instances where Sbisa is out there on a partial change. Special teams obviously being the biggest differentiator...but the difference in how players are used and who gets caught out when on the negative periods...it's pretty clear on that graph even.


The difference in shots against/scoring attempts against is in that divide between Sibsa and Hutton. Sbisa being out there longer against impending transition plays...sucks for him. But together, Hutton-Sbisa is worth keeping together. A poor man's Edler-Tanev.

 

[tantalum]

This is going to be overly harsh I'm sure.

WD - shortens the bench for no real reason but still sticks to 1-2-3 rotation it seems. Forgets he has last change at home. Puts offensively talented kids in neutral zone and defensive starts only. Sits kids on the bench for 15 minutes in the third and then throws them on with the goalie pulled. He us such a bizarre coach.

Bartkowski - guy is a tire fire. Rushes the puck at the many of the wrong times and/or rushes the puck and gives it away so that his teammates are all moving forward when the opposition is transitioning the other way. His defensive zone coverage is brutal and his weak play against opposition players has cost several goals already this year. One of the fastest skaters from the blue line in the NHL yet heels constantly beat back to the zone and to the net.

Hamhuis - hard to pin down to be honest. Somehow he is stuck with a guy who requires him to do even more clean up work than Bieksa did. Hamhuis is all over the place and doesn't look good but I swear it is mostly down to his partner. No chemistry and how could there be when Bartkowski does the things he does.

Sbisa - he was bad. He had a few better games but like last year he can't maintain it. He's a 6/7 guy on a weak blue line of a mediocre team making 3.6 mil.

Hutton - Canucks are lucky he stepped like he did in camp or this is a 2 d-man team.

Miller - good saves. Played well but his numbers are also coming back down to earth.

Baertschi - benched. Scratched. Conversations with agent and player. Still avoiding any physical play really. This experiment should be fine soon. He adds very little from what I can see. Of course you can say that about a lot of guys.

McCann - still struggling with the speed of the game but I thought he played well enough to not get benched.

Virtanen - the knock on him was if he can play a system and be ok defensively. He has been. He's also provided some good physical play. Again not sure why he's benched and why he doesn't get a little more time where he might develop offensively. Coach doesn't trust him to help out and get an extra goal or anything in the third but then uses him in the last minute. Just odd.

Sutter - can not carry a line or drive possession. Good thing Hansen was on that line last night or they never would have established any offensive zone pressure.

Prust and Dorsett - 16 ****ing minutes. 16!

All in all though last night us what I expected from thus team this year. It has a lot of holes and IMO players that aren't as good as the coach and GM think. They are a one line, 3 d-man and 1 goaltender team right now.

 

[arsmaster*]

Who's the edler and who's the Tanev in that hobo pairing.

 

[The Jesus*]

Didnt watch the game. Did Prust and Dorsett seriously get 16 minutes that game? That is ridiculous.

We need to fire Willie. Benning and Linden need to recognize that there is a problem, and do something about it.

 

[Fat Tony]

The crowds have usually been muted in their responses at Roger's but it seems like the actual mood has changed. I think people are ready for a true rebuild.

 

[Proto]

It's amazing how great Hutton looks after just doing some workouts, considering he wasn't even capable of cracking that sick Utica defense last spring. No way he could have. He was too green. He didn't have the pro experience. And now all of a sudden he's the 2nd best D on an NHL team after doing some sick squats and lunges? It's almost unbelievable!

 

[Proto]

- Hutton is just a revelation. Best outlet passer to play on our blueline since ... Jeff Brown? The consistency with which he makes space for himself and hits guys at top speed is amazing. Starting to get more aggressive defensively and push the play harder. Sky is the limit right now.

This is going to sound overblown/way too optimistic, but his play style reminds me a little bit of Duncan Keith when he's moving the puck out of his own end. He passes like a top 6 centre.

It's too bad Gillis's drafting from rounds 3 to 5 didn't translate to his rounds 1 and 2 drafting

Disclaimer: I'm not saying he'll be as good as Keith.

 

[CanaFan]

The crowds have usually been muted in their responses at Roger's but it seems like the actual mood has changed. I think people are ready for a true rebuild.

That's the thing about rebuilds. They aren't usually chosen by teams so much as thrust upon them by age and contracts. Teams can either choose to hasten the process or prolong it but it will come all the same. Given the choice of watching Dorsett and Prust plod around for 16 minutes and maybe catch a late playoff spot or watching exciting kids like Hutton and McCann learn, make mistakes, and grow from them and maybe sit a playoff or two out... I think fans are starting to come around to option B.

 

[MikeK]

It's not the loss that bothers me. It's the way we lost. Overplaying plugs like Dorsett and Prust while our young kids sit and rot on the bench just pisses me off to no end. I haven't disliked a Canuck coach as much as I do WD in decades. I truly believe he's killing their development.

 

[Nick Lang]

Your laughy emoticons make you more credible.

If you can't see why a coach would sit some kids you are trying to develop in that situation then I don't think we have any common ground for a discussion.

Some real clueless people out there. Even funnier is pretending that searching stats on google make them some kind genius authority.

 

[brokenhole]

McCann with 0 o-zone starts put's the kid in a position to fail. I wonder if Vey was playing tonight would he get the same zone starts as McCann?

 

[Samzilla]

It's amazing how great Hutton looks after just doing some workouts, considering he wasn't even capable of cracking that sick Utica defense last spring. No way he could have. He was too green. He didn't have the pro experience. And now all of a sudden he's the 2nd best D on an NHL team after doing some sick squats and lunges? It's almost unbelievable!

Didn't you hear? NOT playing him developed him into the player he is today. Maybe we should not play Sbisa then.