Canucks Extend Jim Benning's Contract II

Svencouver

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Anyway, I know my post was pretty big but the biggest takeaway for me that I would want to see addressed first is that I highly question this board's reverence for the authority and "objectivity" of the Potato. It only draws data from the 2014 draft class onwards and doesn't take into account the 2018-19 season. Thus, to get the evaluating metric (total TOI, which isn't even a statistic I agree with in terms of comprehensively evaluating players), the Potato is drawing from a grand total of... 4 years of data. In regards to newly drafted prospects. Most of which will have either not played yet, or in the best case, may have played for 1-3 seasons. I mean, it still has zero minutes played for Pettersson, so if you look at the potato and nothing else, it looks like a blown pick. It just simply isn't a large enough time period to draw any meaningful conclusions - you would need to, at the very least, take into account the entire careers of these players before you draw conclusions on the success of their selection in the draft.

I would put a lot more stock in the Potato if it was a bit more comprehensive with the data it drew from. I don't see any reason why it cant go back through all of the history of the NHL draft. It would be far more illuminating that way.
 

4Twenty

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My fav part are the guys ripping the people actually digging up the posts while also thanking guys like Lawerence who are blatantly outright making things up. The agenda is so incredibly transparent.

At the end of the day the "so you think you can draft" threads are inaccurate and don't really provide a ton, for the purpose of this strange exercise it makes way more sense to look at team board mocks/and lists made pre-draft...which makes the inclusion of Brandon Carlo in 2015 so incredibly hilarious....this board wanted nothing to do with Carlo...like at all.

The cult like following and constant excuses for Benning around this fanbase is one of the more fascinating things I've ever witnessed being a sports fan...the irony that one of the more prominent members of this brigade identify as a "pastor".
 

Sergei Shirokov

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This is not about credit. This is about absolving Benning's failings to the point of seeing a justification for his re-signing. Where as I'm saying that despite the credit, he still falls short.

1. Your reasoning here is that the lack of picks pale in comparison to hitting with Pettersson, Boeser et. al. The assumption is that the average GM could not have had the same number of hits/misses. Or, the same type. This is demonstrably false as seen with the Potato metrics.

2. Benning made signings to be competitive. With Eriksson, Gudbranson, Sutter++, he was consistently close to the cap. He displayed an urge to compete quicker. That his teams completely flopped has no bearing on that intent. And this intent prevented him from weaponizing the cap in order to get more picks.

3. Wrong, TML consistently liquidated assets to get picks. They were a bad team. Franson+Santorelli for a 1st++, Winnik for a couple of picks, Kessel for a 1st+Kapanen, Phaneuf++ for a 2nd++, Polak for two 2nd rounders etc... They were a bad team that cycled veteran players for picks. Do not superimpose the failings of Benning, signing players to poor contracts, onto all teams in a rebuild state.

4. I know you would quantify Pettersson as being more than a Tkachuk+Glass combination, but why? Both alternatives are projected to be 1st liners. You are disregarding the actual net impact of draftees when doing this.

If you see Pettersson as a potential top5 player, and models like the Potato account for past draftees that have become top5 players, then they actually account for the rarity that you say cannot be accounted for... They say "Yeah he could turn out to be a top5 player, and this is what that actually means in the overall measurement".



So to summarize: You think the average GM would not have been able to replicate Benning's performance at the draft. Particularly in the case of drafting Pettersson. I'm saying that the average GM could be expected to replicate the net impact of Benning's drafting, despite lacking a Pettersson pick. At worst, said GM would have more picks via trade in order to be better positioned at the draft. At best, he could get a Pettersson like player (like Aho) and even more via his extra picks. At evens, he could get a combination of players to equal Pettersson's net impact.

What you have done here is akin to a snowflake defense. By holding the achievement of drafting Pettersson et. al. as wholly unique, you've determined that no other GM could match the feat. Without data to back up your claim...

Lastly, if drafting is paramount, and Benning has operated at a pick deficit, had refused to weaponize the cap, and has failed to garner+liquidate assets -> Then how is he serving the draft better than a GM that does focus on these crucial aspects of a rebuild?

No, your deep hatred for Jim Benning has you inventing parts of my argument.

Your attacking things & points of view I didn't say, defend, or intend to defend. "You think yada yada" actually no, I've said my point time and time again, the main point here that I'm making, the one thing I'm actually defending, is this:

The biggest obstacle facing the group coming in (regardless of ownership's mandate), was finding the next core after the Twins that could carry this team, we've done that. I'm high on the young core we have. I think if things are done correctly it has a real chance to compete & potentially win a championship. But because of Jim Benning's poor decisions the margin for error has thinned.

I don't think Jim Benning has done a good job overall, I think the pro side has been largely horrible, therefore I don't think have confidence he can now do things correctly & be the GM to get us to the next level.

1. Your missing my point.

2. What does this have to do with anything I've said. I've never defended any of that.

3. Okay but you said "Good signings also create valued assets" the 3 biggest assets you listed weren't signings, so your moving goalposts with this example. Look at rebuilding teams & show me players lining up to take sweetheart deals, it doesn't happen.

4. Glass might be, he might not be. Too early to say or really quantify his impact when he hasn't begun to make one in the NHL. He might end up a good 2nd line C.
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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Weird how you only mentioned all Sportsnet guys. Almost like they seem to have an agenda.. hmmm....
The Sportsnet guys do seem to be the mouthpiece of Hockey in Canada..no?...Lets get real..Rogers controls a fair chunk of the media where hockey is concerned.
 

Bleach Clean

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No, your deep hatred for Jim Benning has you inventing parts of my argument.

Your attacking things & points of view I didn't say, defend, or intend to defend. "You think yada yada" actually no, I've said my point time and time again, the main point here that I'm making, the one thing I'm actually defending, is this:

The biggest obstacle facing the group coming in (regardless of ownership's mandate), was finding the next core after the Twins that could carry this team, we've done that. I'm high on the young core we have. I think if things are done correctly it has a real chance to compete & potentially win a championship. But because of Jim Benning's poor decisions the margin for error has thinned.

I don't think Jim Benning has done a good job overall, I think the pro side has been largely horrible, therefore I don't think have confidence he can now do things correctly & be the GM to get us to the next level.

1. Your missing my point.

2. What does this have to do with anything I've said. I've never defended any of that.

3. Okay but you said "Good signings also create valued assets" the 3 biggest assets you listed weren't signings, so your moving goalposts with this example. Look at rebuilding teams & show me players lining up to take sweetheart deals, it doesn't happen.

4. Glass might be, he might not be. Too early to say or really quantify his impact when he hasn't begun to make one in the NHL. He might end up a good 2nd line C.



Really difficult to defend being accused of a strawman argument when the accuser does not point out which argument is the strawman... How did I misrepresent your opinion?

Your main argument: The biggest obstacle for a rebuilding team is to find the next core. Benning has found the next core. However, Benning has not done a good job overall.

Do I have this right?


If that's right, then would it be fair to say that you think Benning has done a satisfactory job overall?

You say that he has not done a good job overall. So he's OK, but not good. Do I have it right? If he's OK, then that means his draft work is good enough and important enough to overshadow the majority (by volume and role) the rest of his work.

I want to clarify your position before proceeding.
 
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Mafic

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Anyway, I know my post was pretty big but the biggest takeaway for me that I would want to see addressed first is that I highly question this board's reverence for the authority and "objectivity" of the Potato. It only draws data from the 2014 draft class onwards and doesn't take into account the 2018-19 season. Thus, to get the evaluating metric (total TOI, which isn't even a statistic I agree with in terms of comprehensively evaluating players), the Potato is drawing from a grand total of... 4 years of data. In regards to newly drafted prospects. Most of which will have either not played yet, or in the best case, may have played for 1-3 seasons. I mean, it still has zero minutes played for Pettersson, so if you look at the potato and nothing else, it looks like a blown pick. It just simply isn't a large enough time period to draw any meaningful conclusions - you would need to, at the very least, take into account the entire careers of these players before you draw conclusions on the success of their selection in the draft.

I would put a lot more stock in the Potato if it was a bit more comprehensive with the data it drew from. I don't see any reason why it cant go back through all of the history of the NHL draft. It would be far more illuminating that way.

I think you've put some thought into your previous points, though I just want to clear up a couple things I think you're misinterpreting with the potato (feel free to correct me, Melvin).

We don't revere the potato for its drafting ability and that was never its intention anyway. It's just an attempt to provide an objective baseline for drafting players, and the objectivity comes from the fact it only looks at a player's PPG while considering leagues, position, and height. It doesn't care about more subjective things like whether players are Russian, grew up in Vancouver, or were arrogant in their combine interviews.

The potato is supposed to be a predictive tool, not an evaluative one. The evaluation using TOI only comes in after the potato has made its picks, and has no bearing (that I know of) on player selection. The point of the TOI comparisons was probably just to make an easy calculation of the potato's performance relative to NHL teams. It's not perfect - there are situations where Player A makes the NHL before Player B, and would have more TOI in the first few years even if Player B looks to be the better player moving forward. You can really evaluate the selections however you see fit, which is I think what most of us do.

Behind the scenes it probably looks something like:
A*B*C*(Draft PPG) = Potato Points
Where A, B, and C are the league, position, and height adjustments, and Potato Points are optimized to some NHL variable. I'm not sure if Melvin has shared what the variable is exactly (NHL PPG? NHL TOI?).
 
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Svencouver

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I think you've put some thought into your previous points, though I just want to clear up a couple things I think you're misinterpreting with the potato (feel free to correct me, Melvin).

We don't revere the potato for its drafting ability and that was never its intention anyway. It's just an attempt to provide an objective baseline for drafting players, and the objectivity comes from the fact it only looks at a player's PPG while considering leagues, position, and height. It doesn't care about more subjective things like whether players are Russian, grew up in Vancouver, or were arrogant in their combine interviews.

The potato is supposed to be a predictive tool, not an evaluative one. The evaluation using TOI only comes in after the potato has made its picks, and has no bearing (that I know of) on player selection. The point of the TOI comparisons was probably just to make an easy calculation of the potato's performance relative to NHL teams. It's not perfect - there are situations where Player A makes the NHL before Player B, and would have more TOI in the first few years even if Player B looks to be the better player moving forward. You can really evaluate the selections however you see fit, which is I think what most of us do.

Behind the scenes it probably looks something like:
A*B*C*(Draft PPG) = Potato Points
Where A, B, and C are the league, position, and height adjustments, and Potato Points are optimized to some NHL variable. I'm not sure if Melvin has shared what the variable is exactly (NHL PPG? NHL TOI?).

I more or less understand all of this, I just think the potato would have a little more weight behind its purpose for me if it took more data so we could see how well it predicted for nultiple draft classes of players who have already played out their entire careers.
 

Bleach Clean

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I more or less understand all of this, I just think the potato would have a little more weight behind its purpose for me if it took more data so we could see how well it predicted for nultiple draft classes of players who have already played out their entire careers.


I don't think it does because it doesn't need to. The value of the Potato is the following:

- It's supposed to be a very simple baseline. Almost stupid in its execution.

- The Potato has already predicted Pastrnak, Nylander, Point, Tkachuk, Pettersson etc... That's 4 years, and now has released its 5th year list.

- Conversion rates, as in NHLe values were different the further back you go into history. I'm not sure how Melvin would account for it? He would almost have to adjust the NHLe values to produce the desired result.

I have a post coming in reply to your larger post. Hopefully, it will clear up a few issues you have with it? Let's see.
 
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vanuck

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Anyway, I know my post was pretty big but the biggest takeaway for me that I would want to see addressed first is that I highly question this board's reverence for the authority and "objectivity" of the Potato. It only draws data from the 2014 draft class onwards and doesn't take into account the 2018-19 season. Thus, to get the evaluating metric (total TOI, which isn't even a statistic I agree with in terms of comprehensively evaluating players), the Potato is drawing from a grand total of... 4 years of data. In regards to newly drafted prospects. Most of which will have either not played yet, or in the best case, may have played for 1-3 seasons. I mean, it still has zero minutes played for Pettersson, so if you look at the potato and nothing else, it looks like a blown pick. It just simply isn't a large enough time period to draw any meaningful conclusions - you would need to, at the very least, take into account the entire careers of these players before you draw conclusions on the success of their selection in the draft.

I would put a lot more stock in the Potato if it was a bit more comprehensive with the data it drew from. I don't see any reason why it cant go back through all of the history of the NHL draft. It would be far more illuminating that way.

The whole point of the Potato is to be ridiculously simple because we know fans don't have insider knowledge and the budget that NHL teams do. It provides a stupidly simple baseline using public, free information with which we can compare against any team's draft record.

But if you're serious about this, I would suggest taking your post to the Potato thread. Melvin loves discussing the methodology behind it.
 
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Bleach Clean

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I honestly think the reality of this is pretty far removed than what you, me, or anyone could speculate. A professional sports team is a complex organization with lots of people making decisions and lots of moving parts. I dont think it's fair to praise or criticize Benning solely for the majority of the things he gets praised/criticized for. If I had to imagine, the things he's most individually responsible for are hirings and firings, and penning the paper on contracts. I would at the very least hope that there are a lot of people involved in the decisions of a pro sports org worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Benning probably has a larger say than most, and he's the one that actually does the final act and thus I suppose the final say on these matters, but I doubt he just trades players by himself without consulting anyone else in the organization. Most trades take weeks, if not months, to organize and negotiate. He's the one on the phone with other GMs negotiating and asking around, so I suppose I could imagine a lot of the responsibility being on him, but I think its not necessarily a good idea to attribute too much to one individual.

It draws from an incredibly, and I mean INCREDIBLY small sample size with a poor statistical selection. From what I saw on the website, it only draws results from 2014 onwards, and again, too much recency bias means that you do not have the entire careers of players to judge when using the potato. Many players did not reach their full potential (in fact, I'd say that very few do) or even make their mark on the league within 3 or 4 years of being drafted. The potato hasn't even been updated with the 2018-19 season. It also only judges draft picks by total TOI, which is a relatively one-dimensional evaluation for a player. I'd like to see it go much farther back in terms of sampling before I re-evaluate my opinion on it. It's sort of shocking to me that it's gained such an authority around here.

Stop it. You're being incredibly rhetorically lazy with this. I offered my comprehensive take on this and you wont accept it because it isn't a simple yes or no answer, in a situation that has far more nuance attributed to it. I can only guess you're trying to "gotcha" me somehow, but I'm not humoring this any further. I've already given you my take. Take it or leave it.

Agreed on Hamhuis being a missed opportunity - but in terms of tradeable assets? I'm a little confused at this. Shouldn't you be trying to accrue draft picks and young players/prospects in a rebuild, not more trade chips? Again, if we go with your point of logic that the GM should be using trades/signings to bolster his position in the draft - why are you adding extra pieces to the puzzle and trading for assets... to trade for picks instead of just trading that asset for picks in the first place?

If they're countless then you could probably offer more than one. In regards to Marleau - you have to admit that this is a far more grey move than the obvious "yeah we totally should have done it". The reason these cap dumps get serious assets is because they're an awful thing to have on your team. We would be in a pretty dire situation if we had Marleau on our books for the next season. I guess you could say that, well, we overpaid some players in the past and thats why we couldn't take him on, but I just don't think the timing was right. If we want to make the playoffs this year or next taking on a cap dump when we could spend that money on more useful players is a pretty poor choice. The time to do this sort of move was in 2015, and in that regard I agree with you, those moves should have been made in the past - but Marleau was probably not a good example given the circumstances.

Absolutely not. The process of scouting and drafting a player is a pretty complex process that takes place over a long period of time and with a lot of people contributing to that decision. I mean, we've seen videos of the Canucks drafting process and their draft table. It's pretty foolish to say that Benning has ever made these decisions single handedly, which begs the question as to why he ever shouldered the sole blame for Virtanen/Juolevi in the first place.

It is his job, however, to hire and fire people within that process, and to delegate additional responsibility to people that deserve it. In those regards, I think he's done a pretty good job in renovating our scouting infrastructure to a place where it was improved over the administration that preceded it. Again, this sort of rhetoric of "Benning bad" is not nearly nuanced enough given the reality of the situation.

A good example of a great move Benning made was in hiring Ian Clark to the goalie staff. This is something you can more or less trace back to him (and Linden, I suppose), was a move that was smart and pertinent with Demko coming up the pipeline, was likely a fairly difficult pry from Columbus given Bobrovsky's success, and has begun giving some tentative results with Markstrom. I think it's fair to give Benning credit for that, at least somewhat. I'm also a fan of Travis Green and I think Benning made a good decision to promote him. I'm a fan of a lot of the hires the team the administrative staff has made, and I think it's benefit the team in a pretty evident fashion.




I agree, Clarke was a good move. However, I do want to focus this on the three aspects of drafts, trades and signings.

Renovating the scouting staff probably helped. I'm just skeptical about how much? Their draft position changed dramatically. Brackett was already in the organization. They had just drafted Horvat, and Gilman said the staff was split on Nylander/Ehlers in 2014. It's up to you how much you want to infer on this front.

Next, the buck stops with Benning. He's responsible for everything in the organization. I understand that you may not want to attribute everything to him and that's logical. Still, even if he isn't the driving force behind a decision, he still has to own it, good or bad.




Now to the points:

1. Saying that there have been good and bad trades is effectively saying nothing. Let me rephrase this: Do rebuilding teams typically operate at a pick deficit? If not, why not?

2. You should be trying accrue all three: Picks, prospects and trade chips. The trade chips are there to liquidate into further picks and prospects. This is done when you cannot get directly to the prospect/pick trade with what you have. Or, if you have room to add. Or, if you have a future intention of liquidating short term FA signings/trades.

3. Ok, so we've established the Benning doesn't make the selections himself. He relies on Brackett. So the affect a GM has on scouting is to create/position the staff and to set a directive. Outside of that, his major contributions are picks and prospects acquired on the pro side.



Lastly, the Potato:

Here is the description of the Potato methodology:

The potato's method is purposefully simplistic to the point of ridicule:
  1. Take a players points-per-game in the most recent season before the draft.
  2. Apply a positional adjustment.
  3. Apply a draft-age adjustment.
  4. Apply a height adjustment.
As per my understanding, the NHLe values are used to adjust for leagues. That's it... And it beat Benning.
 

Sergei Shirokov

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Really difficult to defend being accused of a strawman argument when the accuser does not point out which argument is the strawman... How did I misrepresent your opinion?

Your main argument: The biggest obstacle for a rebuilding team is to find the next core. Benning has found the next core. However, Benning has not done a good job overall.

Do I have this right?


If that's right, then would it be fair to say that you think Benning has done a satisfactory job overall?

You say that he has not done a good job overall. So he's OK, but not good. Do I have it right? If he's OK, then that means his draft work is good enough and important enough to overshadow the majority (by volume and role) the rest of his work.

I want to clarify your position before proceeding.

The main argument is right. I don't know if I'd use the word 'satisfactory'.

I'm not writing off everything he's done because of the draft, but really thats the biggest thing he needed to do (as reluctant as it was for this franchise), so I give him credit for it as it was such an important thing & considering we'll never win a lottery.

I think his time starting until 2017 was awful, 2016 being his worst year. From 2017 on he's gotten better but still not great.

I guess I could say he's been "ok" from 2017 on, but I wouldn't say I just excuse everything else I didn't like. I just call each move as I see it.

I thought Jim was close to being fired twice but was saved by Boeser & Pettersson having exciting breakout years, I was hoping last year they'd hire an experienced president to head the hockey ops here, but no one wants to come here. Because the Aquillini's meddle & push the directive of the team. Which I don't think gets enough blame.
 
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Svencouver

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Im fine with the potatos methodology. I don't think that going back farther and looking for more examples of its success/failure would really change that. Feeding more data into a simple algorithm doesn't change the algorithm, it just gives you more results that would allow you to draw a more accurate and precise conclusion.

A lot of the TOI over the drafts presented, for instance, is locked up in a couple players like Pastrnak and Arvidsson. If you had more results from further back with the entire career of the players in question taken into account, you would have one or two players dictating the entire results in terms of TOI (which is, again, a flawed statistic for evaluation. PLD has 1k less than Tkachuk but it's still very much debatable who the more valuable player is necessarily. Anthony Beauvillier has more TOI than Thomas Chabot, and I think Chabot is far and away the better pick.)

Fair enough though that we don't necessarily use TOI as the evaluating statistic. I would probably remove it from the site because it sort of obfuscates the point, but thats neither here or there and Melvin can do what he pleases with the site and the algorithm. I think he did a good job with it, for what its worth, and im extremely interested in seeing how well it does in 2018/19. Analytics-based bias-free drafting is something that seems like has a lot of potential.

Ultimately, while the Potato had an exceptionally strong 2014, while a lot of the other years are more of a wash, which is partly due to how early the results are in for players drafted in 2015, 16, etc. There just simply isnt any data on them yet. Drawing conclusions based on pnly one year in terms of how good the Potato is at drafting seems like poor statistical evaluation.
 

Svencouver

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I agree, Clarke was a good move. However, I do want to focus this on the three aspects of drafts, trades and signings.

Renovating the scouting staff probably helped. I'm just skeptical about how much? Their draft position changed dramatically. Brackett was already in the organization. They had just drafted Horvat, and Gilman said the staff was split on Nylander/Ehlers in 2014. It's up to you how much you want to infer on this front.

Next, the buck stops with Benning. He's responsible for everything in the organization. I understand that you may not want to attribute everything to him and that's logical. Still, even if he isn't the driving force behind a decision, he still has to own it, good or bad.

I agree its sort of hard to discern just how much influence he had on the improvements of the scouting staff and whether or not that wheel was already turning in Gillis' twilight hour. I'll leave it where it is, since that's more or less where most people have been on the topic for a while now. Theres no real point on speculating on it further.

I suppose its fair to say that he should own the results of organizational decisions, but I think it would be more healthy for hockey in general if we could evaluate these decisions as part of a larger and more nuanced collective rather than as the will of one dude. There's a lot that has to change internally before a losing team becomes a winning one, and while I suppose firing Benning isnt a bad place to start, it would help if we were realistic about his failings, what his replacement should be, and where the team needs to go from here beyond just getting rid of the man with the jet black hair.

Now to the points:

1. Saying that there have been good and bad trades is effectively saying nothing. Let me rephrase this: Do rebuilding teams typically operate at a pick deficit? If not, why not?

2. You should be trying accrue all three: Picks, prospects and trade chips. The trade chips are there to liquidate into further picks and prospects. This is done when you cannot get directly to the prospect/pick trade with what you have. Or, if you have room to add. Or, if you have a future intention of liquidating short term FA signings/trades.

3. Ok, so we've established the Benning doesn't make the selections himself. He relies on Brackett. So the affect a GM has on scouting is to create/position the staff and to set a directive. Outside of that, his major contributions are picks and prospects acquired on the pro side.

1. How is it saying nothing? It's more or less the truth. I'm afraid I cant really ask the question you've presented me because I simply dont have enough knowledge of rebuilding teams throughout the past 20 years in the NHL and the strategies they employed to become competitive and stay competitive. It's not a conclusion I would want to make without proper substantiation, either, so it's something I'll have to sit on until I can either find or be presented with some sort of objective data on the matter.

This is a yes/no question that I simply don't have a yes/no answer to, my intuition is that all teams are different and thus have different situations they have to deal with differently. There's no one size fits all policy for rebuilding, its entirely relative to the situation you find yourself in and the context your organization exists within. For instance, drafting 1OA obviously changes the landscape of your rebuild a great deal, as opposed to drafting perennial 4-7 OA.

2. Agree. I've always thought that the potential for this sort of thing in the Canucks timeline and context was somewhat limited, but there's no doubt they could have done better.

3. Well I'm sure that its even more nuanced than just Bracket and Benning. I mean, they've posted the draft room videos of like 20 dudes doing analysis on their picks. It's probably a group decision making process where the higher up you are the more say you have. Otherwise, I agree with your conclusion. I wouldn't be surprised if there were just as many personnel working with the pro side of things as well (i.e. keeping tabs on various team needs/injuries/cap space/scouting reports/etc.)

Again, the GM probably has the most authority and does the most work on this front, and in that regard I can certainly agree that Benning does hold the lions share of the blame for the shaky-at-best state of our pro scouting. All that I can hope for is that this year becomes an indication that it's improved, but that's yet to be seen really.
 

Sergei Shirokov

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Comparisons (I bold the ties and wins):

Potato vs. Benning:

Potato: Nylander, Pastrnak, Beauvillier, Tkachuk, Pettersson, Bouchard and Fagemo.
Benning: Virtanen, McCann, Boeser, Juolevi, Pettersson, Hughes and Podkolzin.

Conclusion: Potato wins 5 vs 4. Bouchard and Hughes are a wash so far and Fagemo looks very unlikely to beat Podkolzin. Now factor in that the Potato also picked Point in 2014... It's not close.

Thoughts?

I don't think I'd have Bouchard & Hughes as a wash. Hughes looks like the better prospect.

Konecny is probably a better player than Boeser, so is this really that important?

No he's not better than Boeser.

How the hell does it have any difference whether a person picked Boeser one day before the draft compared to one day after it.

Because a Canucks bias can come in after the player is selected.

It’s more than just the misses at the draft. It’s the lack of getting extra picks so those misses are compensated for by volume. And it’s the trades. This is the worst area.
Seriously, how and why did Aquilini extend JB?

Because Aquilini supports/controls the directive. He wasn't furious about Jim not bottoming out & fully embracing the rebuild, lets just say that.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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16,000
Who’s more respected? Bob Mackenzie or anyone on Sportsnet?
Bob McK obviously (he's retiring btw)........He's been around twice as long (on TV) as most guys on the HNIC panel....But who gets the higher viewership?...Rogers holds the NHL rights.
 

valkynax

The LEEDAR
Sponsor
May 19, 2011
9,970
10,683
Burnaby
My fav part are the guys ripping the people actually digging up the posts while also thanking guys like Lawerence who are blatantly outright making things up. The agenda is so incredibly transparent.

At the end of the day the "so you think you can draft" threads are inaccurate and don't really provide a ton, for the purpose of this strange exercise it makes way more sense to look at team board mocks/and lists made pre-draft...which makes the inclusion of Brandon Carlo in 2015 so incredibly hilarious....this board wanted nothing to do with Carlo...like at all.

The cult like following and constant excuses for Benning around this fanbase is one of the more fascinating things I've ever witnessed being a sports fan...the irony that one of the more prominent members of this brigade identify as a "pastor".

hik223a.png
 

lawrence

Registered User
May 19, 2012
15,981
6,766
Vankiller Whale Jerey Rooy
DCantheDDad Konency
canucksfan100 Boeser
vancityluongo Konency
kilgore111 Merkley
donut Konency
Bad news Benning Boeser
Canucks10 Merkley
Nuckles Merkley
offbeatgravy Merkley
turkulad Boeser
Canucker Konency
Trelane Sprong
leftwinglockdown Anthony Beauvilier
jigsaw99 Boeser and Merkley
thefeebster Brock Boeser/Nick Merkley
MS Nick Merkley or Boeser
ting101 Travis Konency
Red Boeser
Rosko Thorn Travis Konency
Yossarian54 Nick Merkley
y2kcanucks Konency
ugghhh Beauvillier
biturbo19 Larsson

Boeser 7 votes
Konency 7 votes
Merkley 8 votes
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
18,713
5,952
It's an absolutely ridiculous track to attempt to divert discussion down.

We as fans are dealing with extremely incomplete information. Like, on Petterssson - as I said repeatedly before and after Pettersson was picked, he seemed like a good selection on paper but I couldn't really sit here and take a strong stance on him because I hadn't really seen him play (once in the WJCs that I couldn't remember) and wasn't overly familiar with the league he was playing in as a basis for comparison. So my likes/dislikes for that draft were more centered on guys I knew from leagues I knew like Glass and Vilardi. And we as fans also didn't know - as it seems like teams did - that Vilardi's back might be an issue going down the road.

And despite this inequality of access to information, fan drafting and Benning drafting is still basically similar. And far worse than the potato. Because drafting is mostly luck and draft position.

To act like the Benning supporters have 'got one over' on us because their $millions in scouting resources got a better look at Pettersson is just a joke. Fan drafting is *always* centered around guys in the CHL or who got big looks at the WJC/U18s just because of what people are able to actually see.

You make very good points and I want to stress that your points apply generally. While I think that ultimately the GM is responsible for the drafts that occur under his watch, the bolded is a point I made many times. We as fans aren't there in the room with Canucks scouts when they were trying to come up with a list. While the Canucks have tried to increase their cross-checking, naturally scouts push for players that they have seen or seen more often. There may be more than a simple majority pushing for Juolevi over Tkachuk , Virtanen over Nylander/Ehers, and or Pettersson over Glass etc. Benning might have given his instructions and provided direction but he may have went along with his scouts' preferences after taking into account his direction. If you're going to give him credit for good picks you have to place blame on him for bad picks and vice versa. You can't blame him for bad picks and not give him credit for good picks.
 

MadaCanuckle

Registered User
Jun 25, 2012
2,092
922
Lisboa
Vankiller Whale Jerey Rooy
DCantheDDad Konency
canucksfan100 Boeser
vancityluongo Konency
kilgore111 Merkley
donut Konency
Bad news Benning Boeser
Canucks10 Merkley
Nuckles Merkley
offbeatgravy Merkley
turkulad Boeser
Canucker Konency
Trelane Sprong
leftwinglockdown Anthony Beauvilier
jigsaw99 Boeser and Merkley
thefeebster Brock Boeser/Nick Merkley
MS Nick Merkley or Boeser
ting101 Travis Konency
Red Boeser
Rosko Thorn Travis Konency
Yossarian54 Nick Merkley
y2kcanucks Konency
ugghhh Beauvillier
biturbo19 Larsson

Boeser 7 votes
Konency 7 votes
Merkley 8 votes

Why do you left several posters out, namely me? Why I don't see all those Merkley votes in the thread?
 
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