Canucks Extend Jim Benning's Contract II

[Jyrki21]

I honestly think that over 50% of the fanbase thinks that Jim Benning is sitting there making the calls on who we draft in the 7th round. It's just nuts and isn't remotely how it works.

I mean, if they do, isn't that an indictment of the so-called drafting guru anyway? The Canucks have extracted virtually nothing out of later rounds.

 

[Josepho]

no better way to prove that a gm is fit to run a hockey team than by showing that he MIGHT be slightly better at 1/3rd of his job than a bunch of dudes on the internet

 

[Bleach Clean]

I really hope you are kidding. I will give you props though, this is a perfect example of not seeing the forest for the trees followed by copious amounts of hyperbole.

Please enlighten me Numba9. What is LuckyLarry missing and where is he exaggerating?

 

[Bleach Clean]

2nd time I’m posting this

Horvat over nikushkin. (This one is more fans get out drafted by the gm not benning)

Ehlers over virtanen.

Boeser over Carlo. Gm wins here
Tkachuk over juolevi. Fans win here
Pettersson over vilardi. Fans get pwned here. Canucks.com outdrafted you guys too, since they wanted glass.
Hughes over Dobson. Yea

Hfboards

Nikushkin
Ehlers
Carlo
Tkachuk
Vilardi
Dobson
Point

Potato.

Horvat
Virtanen
Boeser
Juolevi
Pettersson
Hughes

I can do a poll right now and I know who is gonna win.

Btw I didn’t start the potato comment. Read carefully when I used the potato comment and look at who I was replying too. That’s the origin.

Ok, thanks for the lists. I was hoping you would source the choices, but I will do it here.

Now first, Horvat/Nichushkin is irrelevant because that's a Gillis pick. It has no bearing on whether HF is better/worse than Benning.


-----------------------------------------


To the drafts:

Potato:

2014: Nylander, Pastrnak
2015: Beauvillier
2016: Tkachuk
2017: Pettersson
2018: Bouchard
2019: Fagemo

Sources:
The Data-Based Drafting Thread (what players would a Potato pick?)

HF Canucks:

2014: Nylander, Barbashev
2015: Boeser
2016: Tkachuk
2017: Mittlestadt
2018: Hughes
2019: Boldy

Sources:
2014: 2014 Mock Draft by Team Board Vote
2014: So you think you can draft - 2014 edition
2015: So you think you can draft - 2015 edition
2016: GDT: - 2016 NHL DRAFT (DAY 1) - 4:00 p.m. PST | Sportsnet / NBCSN
2017: Canucks Fan Draft List 2017
2018: Canucks Fan Draft List 2018 - Selection 6
2019: Canucks Fan Draft List 2019 - Selection 7

Benning:

2014: Virtanen, McCann
2015: Boeser
2016: Juolevi
2017: Pettersson
2018: Hughes
2019: Podkolzin

Sources: History


-----------------------------------------------


Comparisons (I bold the ties and wins):

Potato vs. Benning:

Potato: Nylander, Pastrnak, Beauvillier, Tkachuk, Pettersson, Bouchard and Fagemo.
Benning: Virtanen, McCann, Boeser, Juolevi, Pettersson, Hughes and Podkolzin.

Conclusion: Potato wins 5 vs 4. Bouchard and Hughes are a wash so far and Fagemo looks very unlikely to beat Podkolzin. Now factor in that the Potato also picked Point in 2014... It's not close.


HF Canucks vs. Benning:

HF Canucks: Nylander, Barbashev, Boeser, Tkachuk, Mittlestadt, Hughes and Boldy.
Benning: Virtanen, McCann, Boeser, Juolevi, Pettersson, Hughes and Podkolzin.

Conclusion: HF Canucks wins 6 vs 5. Barbashev/McCann and Boldy/Podkolzin seem like similar assets at this point. The difference comes down to Nylander+Tkachuk vs. Pettersson. Two 1st line talents vs. a potential top5 player. On frequency, HF wins. On quality, it's probably Benning. Probably.


It shouldn't be this close.


Thoughts?

 

[Canuck Luck]

Question. Why is horvat being brought up as a Benning draft pick? Horvat was drafted in 2013. Benning was hired in 2014. Also noticed no mention of the McCann pick.

On topic though, Benning is horrible at drafting. Especially in the first round. Full disclosure I make my picks based off reading scouting reports here + highlight packages. Somehow my track record in his tenure produces better results. Here are my picks at our selection slots:

2014 Nylander and barbashev
2015 Konecny
2016 Tkachuk
2017 Pettersson
2018 Hughes
2019 podkolzin

Now if I had the power to trade back you’ll find I made numerous proposals or mentions trying to do so in these 3 years:

2014: I would have traded back to 9 because I thought we could get one of nylander/ehlers/ritchie/Virtanen there. Virtanen was my last choice. Would have taken ehlers at 9 and added picks if draft shaped out the same.

In 2018 I wanted to trade 7 + 37 for 11 and 12. I thought 2 of Bouchard/kravtsov/Dobson/wahlstrom/boqvist would be available and preferred that to Hughes + whoever was available at 37. Also made mentions of trading to 10 + a 2nd so we could get Dobson and hopefully Miller. At that point with the oilers 2nd I’d take Wilde as he was my pick at 37. Would have taken Dobson + wahlstrom with the islanders trade if draft shaped out the same way.

In 2019 I wanted to trade back once zegras was gone. I made mentions to go back to 15 as I would still be guaranteed one of newhook/krebs/caufield/soderstrom/boldly/podkolzin. I valued that + picking up multiple other picks more than picking podkolzin at 10. At 15 with caufield, newhook, and krebs still on the board I would have looked to trade back to 17 as I would have been happy with the last available of the bunch. So at 17 I would have krebs + extra picks from moving to 15 + extra picks again for moving to 17

If I could move up, 2015 was the year I would have moved up once Barzal kept falling. Was also okay trading back to the early 2nd to get extra picks. Would have looked for a late 1st+ mid 2nd or 2 early 2nds. Wanted 2 of Carlo/roy/kylington/bittner

Side note one thing I learned is the Canucks in general always pick the opposite guy from who I want from the knights. In 2013 I was jumping for joy when I heard from the London knights the Canucks are proud to select... thinking we were picking domi. 2016 same thing with tkachuk. Guess I know in the future if the Canucks select from London, it’ll be the other guy

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Judging by this thread (and ignoring posters who picked multiple players)...Brock Boeser was not HF's choice..Travis Konecny was

So you think you can draft - 2015 edition

 

[Bleach Clean]

Judging by this thread (and ignoring posters who picked multiple players)...Brock Boeser was not HF's choice..Travis Konecny was

So you think you can draft - 2015 edition

Just so people see how POM is choosing to parse the data here.

Go by the most oft mentioned name. It's simple. Ignoring the posters who pick 2 names ignores a select part of the data.

Edit: I like that POM is citing the research I posted though...

 

[Jyrki21]

Projected to be available or not, Hughes vs other Dmen like Dobson was certainly debated prior to the draft. The 2nd best Dman in the draft was certainly a hotly debated topic. Like I said, most preferred Dobson but was fine with Hughes.

So yeah, no, the fans here definitely preferred Hughes, as @Ronning On Empty showed in his above response:

HF Canucks:

2014: Nylander, Barbashev
2015: Boeser
2016: Tkachuk
2017: Mittlestadt
2018: Hughes
2019: Boldy

Sources:
2018: Canucks Fan Draft List 2018 - Selection 6

edit: Here is the top 10 by HF Canucks rankings:

#1 Rasmus Dahlin 91.8%
#2 Andrei Svechnikov 95.1%
#3 Filip Zadina 74.5%
#4 Quinn Hughes 32.6%
#5 Oliver Wahlstrom 41.9%
#6 Adam Boqvist 36.4%
#7 Noah Dobson 38.9%
#8 Evan Bouchard 81.5%
#9 Brady Tkachuk 56.5%
#10 Jesperi Kotkaniemi 86.4%.

 

[4Twenty]

That we're looking up this stuff to debunk lies permeated by a poster who constantly complains about the state of the discourse around is here is incredibly rich. Good ol' negative HFCanucks eh.

 

[lawrence]

Just so people see how POM is choosing to parse the data here.

Go by the most oft mentioned name. It's simple. Ignoring the posters who pick 2 names ignores a select part of the data.

Edit: I like that POM is citing the research I posted though...

2015: Boeser

2015: So you think you can draft - 2015 edition

Nick Merkley had more votes then Boser, also if you can , I already tried myself pull up mock drafts if possible. I never trust the so you think you can draft editions anyways, and even going by that, Boeser had like 20% of the votes anyways so he was not hfboard, he was number 3, and thats just the again so you think you can draft edition.

HF Canucks: Nylander, Barbashev, Boeser, Tkachuk, Mittlestadt, Hughes and Boldy.

Barbashev and McCann is a wash. lets be fair, I personally like his game more then Barbashev yes he has a cup but I prefer McCann, that being said that should be wash.

2014: 2014 Mock Draft by Team Board Vote
2014: So you think you can draft - 2014 edition

Jake Virtanen was quite popular.

 

[MS]

That we're looking up this stuff to debunk lies permeated by a poster who constantly complains about the state of the discourse around is here is incredibly rich. Good ol' negative HFCanucks eh.

The whole state of affairs here and with the fanbase as a whole is a backwards idiocracy.

Presenting rational arguments as to the state of the club based on statistics and evidence which doesn't happen to paint a rosy picture of things is TOXIC! NEGATIVE!

Presenting no facts or arguments whatsoever except for blind fandom and doing little but complaining about logic and facts you don't like and the people presenting them is being a great fan!

 

[F A N]

So yeah, no, the fans here definitely preferred Hughes,

Maybe you're right. That was hardly much of a poll based on the number of votes. I was basing it on my memory of what posters posted in terms of their preferences. Looking back, Hughes might have the edge but it was pretty close?

 

[MadaCanuckle]

Just so people see how POM is choosing to parse the data here.

Go by the most oft mentioned name. It's simple. Ignoring the posters who pick 2 names ignores a select part of the data.

Edit: I like that POM is citing the research I posted though...

He always does that way. Him, lawrence (Carlo... does something need to be done here?), and all those usual suspects.... can we call them "The Recollection Benning Defending Untruthful Cheerleaders "?

 

[MS]

Maybe you're right. That was hardly much of a poll based on the number of votes. I was basing it on my memory of what posters posted in terms of their preferences. Looking back, Hughes might have the edge but it was pretty close?

I was very loudly pro-Dobson and maybe that gets remembered but most people were on the Hughes bandwagon.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So you think you can draft - 2015 edition

Going over this thread, if it is indeed the perameters as to who HF Canucks wanted, and INCLUDING POSTERS WHO MADE MULTIPLE CHOICES....Boeser still does not come out ahead.

Too bad that there wasn't a poll available for that year

 

[MS]

So you think you can draft - 2015 edition

Going over this thread, if it is indeed the perameters as to who HF Canucks wanted, and INCLUDING POSTERS WHO MADE MULTIPLE CHOICES....Boeser still does not come out ahead.

Too bad that there wasn't a poll available for that year

Konecny is probably a better player than Boeser, so is this really that important?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Konecny is probably a better player than Boeser, so is this really that important?

Konecny is really good..I still prefer a healthy Brock Boeser.

Nothing to do with the player...just something to do with selective reading..

 

[Bleach Clean]

Konecny is probably a better player than Boeser, so is this really that important?

He’s talking about Merkley. Since I was focused on Boeser/Konecny, the Merkley comparison was out of focus. In that thread, he gets 7 votes to Boeser’s 6 votes. Edit: This is wrong.

What I’ll do here is to increase the sample. Look through more older threads and see if I can get a better read.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Nick Merkley had more votes then Boser, also if you can , I already tried myself pull up mock drafts if possible. I never trust the so you think you can draft editions anyways, and even going by that, Boeser had like 20% of the votes anyways so he was not hfboard, he was number 3, and thats just the again so you think you can draft edition.
.

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[MS]

He’s talking about Merkley. Since I was focused on Boeser/Konecny, the Merkley comparison was out of focus. In that thread, he gets 7 votes to Boeser’s 6 votes.

What I’ll do here is to increase the sample. Look through more older threads and see if I can get a better read.

Edit: Reading through the thread again, I count 7 votes a piece for Boeser, Merkley and Konecny. What threw me there is that VKW and 2 other posters mention and list Boeser, but not necessarily to vote for him.

I will increase the sample.

This whole discussion is just such a massive red herring of a waste of time and attempted distraction.

Like, a huge argument over whether fans on a message board who haven't even watched most of the players play have been able to out-draft an NHL club with an annual scouting budget in the $millions. That this discussion is even being had is about as damning as it gets and what the results of it are are completely pointless.

It's basically just a way for Benning supporters who have no cohesive arguments about how he's actually doing a good job in any meaningful way to try and divert discussion away from that to this to claim a 'win'.

 

[racerjoe]

For fun and since it was only 2 pages of posts, I counted the actual votes including people who voted for two players. These are the results.

Roy - 1
Boeser - 9
Konecny - 6
Merkley - 7
Sprong - 1
Beauvillier -2
Larsson - 1

So it actually looks like the board preferred Boeser, although I would like to see the pre-draft poll instead.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

For fun and since it was only 2 pages of posts, I counted the actual votes including people who voted for two players. These are the results.

Roy - 1
Boeser - 9
Konecny - 6
Merkley - 7
Sprong - 1
Beauvillier -2
Larsson - 1

So it actually looks like the board preferred Boeser, although I would like to see the pre-draft poll instead.

Obviously counting people who 'liked' the Canuck picks, but didnt make any picks..lol

 

[racerjoe]

Obviously counting people who 'liked' the Canuck picks, but didnt make any picks..lol

Obviously counting people who posted in the thread.... instead of making stuff up.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Obviously counting people who posted in the thread.... instead of making stuff up.

We're counting posters making selections here..(not people that in hindsight that 'liked' the Canuck picks)..big difference..but carry on.

 

[Bleach Clean]

For fun and since it was only 2 pages of posts, I counted the actual votes including people who voted for two players. These are the results.

Roy - 1
Boeser - 9
Konecny - 6
Merkley - 7
Sprong - 1
Beauvillier -2
Larsson - 1

So it actually looks like the board preferred Boeser, although I would like to see the pre-draft poll instead.

Edit: Damn NVM. Just looked again. I think your vote may be more accurate.

This whole discussion is just such a massive red herring of a waste of time and attempted distraction.

Like, a huge argument over whether fans on a message board who haven't even watched most of the players play have been able to out-draft an NHL club with an annual scouting budget in the $millions. That this discussion is even being had is about as damning as it gets and what the results of it are are completely pointless.

It's basically just a way for Benning supporters who have no cohesive arguments about how he's actually doing a good job in any meaningful way to try and divert discussion away from that to this to claim a 'win'.

You are correct, it's a red herring. The GM is supposed to out-draft a message board. The Potato comparison is far more insightful.

To me, it's about accuracy in arguments and how narratives are built upon false premises. Lawrence made an incorrect statement, IMO. Hence, the research. I'm just trying to ground as much of what is being said about HF as possible. So that even if posters accuse HF of being negative, the accuracy is there to prove that HF was knowledgeable while being negative.