Canucks at the Trade Deadline - Part II

[NFITO]

Last year Gaborik put up 40 goals.

it's funny that you would even mention this.

You keep on ripping on the Sedins for not producing well in the playoffs despite their regular season totals, why don't you hold Gaborik to the same standard?

Gaborik has been nothing short of awful in the playoffs when it comes to production. His last good playoff year (his only in his career) came 10 years ago with the Wild. Since then he's been a playoff no show on the score sheet.

This is a guy paid huge $$ to be a top offensive producer. Sure he scored 40 goals in the regular season, but then what happened in the playoffs?

Gaborik's playoffs since arriving in NY, he's been on a 20 goal, 45 point pace (through a 82 game schedule). 6 goals, 13 pts in 25 games?? and prior to that he wasn't even in the playoffs for almost a decade!

Compare that with the Sedins, who have been at close to a 100 point pace (through a 82 game schedule) over the past 4 consecutive playoffs now.

You've been ripping on the Sedins for a long time for not stepping up in the playoffs, and now want to sell us on Gaborik's 40 goal regular season, without even touching on his complete no-shows in the playoffs for the past 10 years?

Do we really want a $7.5mill player on the team that will rack up the goals and points in the regular season, but then disappear when the playoffs start?

Wasn't that your biggest issues with the Sedins through their career here? The Sedins are now each producing at twice the pace that Gaborik does in the playoffs.

 

[struckmatch]

Cap space only has value if you use it on a player that helps us. Someone like Bozak, or re-signing the same team that has proven it can't get it done does not help us.

Luongo could come back next year, or I suggest moving Schneider if the offers for him are extremely better than for Luongo.

Here's the reason why it would be a huge mistake (and has been up to this point) by Gillis to keep Luongo even longer...it really produces these two things:

1 unhappy goalie in Luongo. He can say all the right things and be the perfect teammate, bottom line is, he's unhappy sitting on the bench and not playing. His career is basically ticking away as he's not a "young" goalie anymore.

Then, you have 1 uncomfortable goalie in Schneider. Sure, he's rolling now, but imagine a bad game coming up somewhere, and then Luongo steps in and takes the ball for a few games, how uncomfortable is that for Schneider?

It really just is a bad situation all around. It's mismanagement of an asset - and it has been up to now, I don't think that's even up for debate.

Experts are ALL saying that the deal that Gillis could have gotten in the Summer would have been much better than he can get now. If that is in fact true, which I think we are all expecting it to be, then Gillis has mismanaged this entire situation.

Hindsight is 20/20 - so you can't go back and make that deal now for Bozak + a 1st (or whatever was on the table from the Leafs) but anyone who thinks keeping Luongo into the summer is a good idea is really just wearing some Canucks colored glasses.

Here are some UFA goalies who could be on the market in the summer:

Jimmy Howard
Niklas Backstrom

While Ryan Miller and Mike Smith have also been rumored to be available for the right price, how does that exactly HELP Luongo's return?

He has to be moved before the deadline for all of the above reasons and we haven't even touched on this teams closing window, get something that can help you try and win TODAY.

 

[struckmatch]

His play in the playoffs has been fine. Trade Luongo for garbage like NFITO has suggested and in 3 years you'll be hearing about how badly Cory's track record in the playoffs has been. Don't address our teams needs and we'll continue to die by those holes.

His value has definitely dropped since the summer but I don't think it's as bad as NFITO is making it out to be. I think it's somewhere between the two of you...

If Luongo goes for Bozak or Lupul and a 3rd I think the Canucks do it (as they should)

The problem is, the Leafs are safely in a spot in the playoffs (barring a collapse) so I don't see them very keen to move a piece off their roster.

 

[Proto]

it's funny that you would even mention this.

You keep on ripping on the Sedins for not producing well in the playoffs despite their regular season totals, why don't you hold Gaborik to the same standard?

Gaborik has been nothing short of awful in the playoffs when it comes to production. His last good playoff year (his only in his career) came 10 years ago with the Wild. Since then he's been a playoff no show on the score sheet.

This is a guy paid huge $$ to be a top offensive producer. Sure he scored 40 goals in the regular season, but then what happened in the playoffs?

Gaborik's playoffs since arriving in NY, he's been on a 20 goal, 45 point pace (through a 82 game schedule). 6 goals, 13 pts in 25 games?? and prior to that he wasn't even in the playoffs for almost a decade!

Compare that with the Sedins, who have been at close to a 100 point pace (through a 82 game schedule) over the past 4 consecutive playoffs now.

You've been ripping on the Sedins for a long time for not stepping up in the playoffs, and now want to sell us on Gaborik's 40 goal regular season, without even touching on his complete no-shows in the playoffs for the past 10 years?

Do we really want a $7.5mill player on the team that will rack up the goals and points in the regular season, but then disappear when the playoffs start?

Wasn't that your biggest issues with the Sedins through their career here? The Sedins are now each producing at twice the pace that Gaborik does in the playoffs.

He's had 80 shots in 25 playoff games with the Rangers and has had some bad luck. It's an incredibly small -- close to meaningless -- sample size. I would take Gaborik in a second at the right price. He has game-breaking talent.

 

[struckmatch]

so now you have a crystal ball?

Can't we all argue like that? Sure, keep Luongo now and see him fail even further as he gets older, while Schneider is unhappy and demands a trade, only be a Vezina goalie that leads his team to a Cup when he gets moved!

Can you prove to me that your prediction of the future has any more chance of happening then mine?

The bottom line is that Luongo at $5.3mill against the cap, while Schneider is outplaying him and still under contract here, does not make sense in a salary cap world where the cap drops to $64mill next season.

That's why I'd take - as you said "garbage" - for him now. Because it's not just what you get, it's the ability to move that contract without taking any cap hit back in return. That in itself is worth a considerable amount in today's NHL, especially again with the cap going down.

Of course I can't possibly argue against someone like you who apparently has a crystal ball and can predict with absolute certainty that in 3 years Cory will suck and we'll regret trading Luongo. How is anyone supposed to argue with that kind of sound logic

I actually can't believe there are some Canucks fans who are still claiming the organization should hold onto Luongo.

Guys, he's asked to be traded. He's been waiting to be traded. His comments yesterday about it being a matter of time speak volumes.

He needs to be moved. Don't get met wrong, I still could see Cory being dealt in a surprise move because the return and the offers Gillis will receive will be significantly more than what he will fetch if he moves Luongo.

Not to mention, the market for Schneider is astronomically larger than the market for Luongo - no NTC and no bad contract.

The bottom line is, have two starting goalies eating almost 10 million in cap space with 1 of them rotting on the bench is just a failure in asset management.

 

[NFITO]

His value has definitely dropped since the summer but I don't think it's as bad as NFITO is making it out to be. I think it's somewhere between the two of you...

If Luongo goes for Bozak or Lupul and a 3rd I think the Canucks do it (as they should)

The problem is, the Leafs are safely in a spot in the playoffs (barring a collapse) so I don't see them very keen to move a piece off their roster.

I don't get why suggesting a trade for Colborne and Ashton is really that bad value-wise?

That's 2 former 1st round picks, one of them (Colborne) developing well and producing even at the NHL level. They both have size and address positional needs for this club (big center and big winger who can play both wings).

All that while not taking a single bad contract back for an asset with 10 yrs left on his contract at the age of 33.

I said it in the off-season and I still believe it now, getting a return like that - 2 decent prospects, both on ELCs, neither waiver eligibile but both able to be used at least as call-ups already, while clearing all of Luongo's cap hit and salary, and taking no bad contracts back - to me that's a solid deal for Luongo.

In reality I think we're going to get much worse than that in return. Likely a bad contract (equivalent of a Booth or Ballard), and a mid to low pick, and/or a fringe prospect.

 

[y2kcanucks]

It's going to be a huge shock to everyone if Gillis deals Luongo for garbage like people have suggested would be acceptable to them, and then the Canucks get bounced in the first round again and don't have a good season next year. I will not be surprised, I'll be the guy saying "I told ya so" and people will overlook it once again. Next year we'll have huge arguments over certain players that I'll want us to acquire and I'll get the traditional "how can we get such a player when we don't have the assets to spend?" Well we could have had the assets to spend except we gave away our biggest trade chip for garbage.

 

[arsmaster*]

I don't get why suggesting a trade for Colborne and Ashton is really that bad value-wise?

That's 2 former 1st round picks, one of them (Colborne) developing well and producing even at the NHL level. They both have size and address positional needs for this club (big center and big winger who can play both wings).

All that while not taking a single bad contract back for an asset with 10 yrs left on his contract at the age of 33.

I said it in the off-season and I still believe it now, getting a return like that - 2 decent prospects, both on ELCs, neither waiver eligibile but both able to be used at least as call-ups already, while clearing all of Luongo's cap hit and salary, and taking no bad contracts back - to me that's a solid deal for Luongo.

In reality I think we're going to get much worse than that in return. Likely a bad contract (equivalent of a Booth or Ballard), and a mid to low pick, and/or a fringe prospect.

Keith Ballard was a former 1st round pick, so was Hugh Jessiman, so was Shawn Belle, so was alot of ****** players who never amounted to anything significant.

Horrible way to judge a trade, or a prospect for that matter. You wan't Grabner or Patrick White...nathan Smith? I didn't think so.

 

[NFITO]

I actually can't believe there are some Canucks fans who are still claiming the organization should hold onto Luongo.

Guys, he's asked to be traded. He's been waiting to be traded. His comments yesterday about it being a matter of time speak volumes.

He needs to be moved. Don't get met wrong, I still could see Cory being dealt in a surprise move because the return and the offers Gillis will receive will be significantly more than what he will fetch if he moves Luongo.

Not to mention, the market for Schneider is astronomically larger than the market for Luongo - no NTC and no bad contract.

The bottom line is, have two starting goalies eating almost 10 million in cap space with 1 of them rotting on the bench is just a failure in asset management.

Personally, I can't see Gillis now moving Schneider and keeping Luongo. Imagine the pressure that puts on both Gillis and Luongo moving forward. And we all know how Luongo has handled pressure in the past.

If Luongo is moved and goes on to have a HOF end to his career with a Cup elsewhere while Schneider craps the bed here, it's still easier for Gillis to justify it - Luongo wanted out and a trade had to be done.

But if, after Luongo has agreed to waive his NTC to be moved, he is retained and Schneider goes elsewhere, while Luongo continues the same career path here (great regular seasons, question marks in big playoff games), while Schneider enjoys great success elsewhere, Gillis may well be fired.

The organization has made their decision to go with Schneider. I can't see them suddenly backing away from that because they get better offers for Schneider now than Luongo. The pressure for that to not backfire would be huge.

Luongo will eventually be traded. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if the return was crap overall, while forcing us to take back a bad contract in the process. But whatever the return, the organization has made their choice with Schneider, and I can't see them even considering dealing him now.

 

[King of the ES*]

Having Luongo back-up in case of injuries provides more values than Tyler Bozak would, sure. Bozak is a wasted roster spot. There have been better players on waivers.

You're aware that Bozak has 23 points in 35 games playing 20:00 per night, right?

You're aware that Bozak has more goals than any Vancouver Canuck not named Daniel Sedin, right?

You're aware that Toronto has only 2 less points than Vancouver, right?

 

[NFITO]

Keith Ballard was a former 1st round pick, so was Hugh Jessiman, so was Shawn Belle, so was alot of ****** players who never amounted to anything significant.

Horrible way to judge a trade, or a prospect for that matter. You wan't Grabner or Patrick White...nathan Smith? I didn't think so.

huh?

I didn't say that they'd turn into star or quality players. But both of them are recent 1st round picks and are both at the very worst already AHL players at this stage in their careers.

Again, for the millionth time since it seems to be going over everyone's heads here - it's not about the assets coming back. The main value in the deal is to lose Luongo's contract entirely without taking any cap hit or salary back. That has immense value!!

Getting 2 decent prospects - call them former 1st rounders or 7th rounders, who cares?? they are still both decent prospects, both on ELCs, both still waiver ineligible, and NOT GETTING BACK ANY BAD CONTRACTS is a solid deal for Luongo.

If you're expecting better returns, you'll be disappointed when he's dealt.

 

[arsmaster*]

so now you have a crystal ball?

Can't we all argue like that? Sure, keep Luongo now and see him fail even further as he gets older, while Schneider is unhappy and demands a trade, only be a Vezina goalie that leads his team to a Cup when he gets moved!

Can you prove to me that your prediction of the future has any more chance of happening then mine?

The bottom line is that Luongo at $5.3mill against the cap, while Schneider is outplaying him and still under contract here, does not make sense in a salary cap world where the cap drops to $64mill next season.

That's why I'd take - as you said "garbage" - for him now. Because it's not just what you get, it's the ability to move that contract without taking any cap hit back in return. That in itself is worth a considerable amount in today's NHL, especially again with the cap going down.

Of course I can't possibly argue against someone like you who apparently has a crystal ball and can predict with absolute certainty that in 3 years Cory will suck and we'll regret trading Luongo. How is anyone supposed to argue with that kind of sound logic

Honestly, who cares if Schneider goes somewhere else and wins a Vezina, if the Canucks end up with a better team for it, and end up winning the Cup that is all that should matter.

Definitely not a fan of your take two marginal prospects strategy.

I don't think Y2k, ever said Cory will suck. He's saying what difference does it make having an other worldly goalie, if the rest of the team stays the same. Luongo has been other worldly since he's been here, we haven't won jack ****....goalies get too much praise and too much blame.

Keeping the same team and swapping Lu for Cory with no supplements (Cap space is nothing to me....you won't get an impact player in FA anymore) is just spinning your wheels IMO.

I actually can't believe there are some Canucks fans who are still claiming the organization should hold onto Luongo.

Guys, he's asked to be traded. He's been waiting to be traded. His comments yesterday about it being a matter of time speak volumes.

He needs to be moved. Don't get met wrong, I still could see Cory being dealt in a surprise move because the return and the offers Gillis will receive will be significantly more than what he will fetch if he moves Luongo.

Not to mention, the market for Schneider is astronomically larger than the market for Luongo - no NTC and no bad contract.

The bottom line is, have two starting goalies eating almost 10 million in cap space with 1 of them rotting on the bench is just a failure in asset management.

Poor asset management is moving a comparable player for a terrible package, meanwhile not improving your team.

 

[arsmaster*]

huh?

I didn't say that they'd turn into star or quality players. But both of them are recent 1st round picks and are both at the very worst already AHL players at this stage in their careers.

Again, for the millionth time since it seems to be going over everyone's heads here - it's not about the assets coming back. The main value in the deal is to lose Luongo's contract entirely without taking any cap hit or salary back. That has immense value!!

Getting 2 decent prospects - call them former 1st rounders or 7th rounders, who cares?? they are still both decent prospects, both on ELCs, both still waiver ineligible, and NOT GETTING BACK ANY BAD CONTRACTS is a solid deal for Luongo.

If you're expecting better returns, you'll be disappointed when he's dealt.

Hasn't gone over my head at all. Just don't agree with it.

 

[arsmaster*]

Personally, I can't see Gillis now moving Schneider and keeping Luongo. Imagine the pressure that puts on both Gillis and Luongo moving forward. And we all know how Luongo has handled pressure in the past.

This is just ridiculous.

The pressure, two 1-0 shutouts in the finals, Olympic goal on home soil?

I guess he's handled it almost as good as the Twins...

Didn't think I'd ever see you scapegoating the goalie NFITO, I'm surprised.

 

[NFITO]

It's going to be a huge shock to everyone if Gillis deals Luongo for garbage like people have suggested would be acceptable to them, and then the Canucks get bounced in the first round again and don't have a good season next year. I will not be surprised, I'll be the guy saying "I told ya so" and people will overlook it once again. Next year we'll have huge arguments over certain players that I'll want us to acquire and I'll get the traditional "how can we get such a player when we don't have the assets to spend?" Well we could have had the assets to spend except we gave away our biggest trade chip for garbage.

great, that world famous crystal ball again. Should we still trade both Daniel and Henrik for Olli Jokinen like your crystal ball predicted before?

Or maybe we should have let them walk for nothing in FA, so we could have signed Gaborik and Cammarelli, while playing them a couple million more, instead of just signing the Sedins?

You have all sorts of predictions for how the future will unfold, but it rarely makes sense at all.

Maybe next season we'll instead be arguing how we could have targetted certain FA to fill holes on this roster but we can't because we're at the salary cap while carrying $9.3mill for goalies, because no one in the league is willing to take on Luongo's contract?

Maybe in a few seasons we'll all seeing Schneider star for another team winning the Cup there, while Luongo retires after a few more lackluster playoff exits, while the team is forced to keep $4+mill of his cap hit under their salary cap for a retired player?

Again, you're full of future predictions, but don't think that they have any more likelihood of happening than anyone else's predictions here. You do however love to paint that picture of doom and gloom if the team isn't able to, or simply doesn't do, what you think they should.

 

[King of the ES*]

It's going to be a huge shock to everyone if Gillis deals Luongo for garbage like people have suggested would be acceptable to them, and then the Canucks get bounced in the first round again and don't have a good season next year. I will not be surprised, I'll be the guy saying "I told ya so" and people will overlook it once again. Next year we'll have huge arguments over certain players that I'll want us to acquire and I'll get the traditional "how can we get such a player when we don't have the assets to spend?" Well we could have had the assets to spend except we gave away our biggest trade chip for garbage.

It's not news that this has been handled in true amateur fashion by our management.

The issue with your suggestion of keeping Luongo is that he wants out. And he wants out because our management - common theme - did not trade Cory Schneider in the 2 years that he was brought up to be "showcased".

 

[y2kcanucks]

great, that world famous crystal ball again. Should we still trade both Daniel and Henrik for Olli Jokinen like your crystal ball predicted before?

Or maybe we should have let them walk for nothing in FA, so we could have signed Gaborik and Cammarelli, while playing them a couple million more, instead of just signing the Sedins?

You have all sorts of predictions for how the future will unfold, but it rarely makes sense at all.

Maybe next season we'll instead be arguing how we could have targetted certain FA to fill holes on this roster but we can't because we're at the salary cap while carrying $9.3mill for goalies, because no one in the league is willing to take on Luongo's contract?

Maybe in a few seasons we'll all seeing Schneider star for another team winning the Cup there, while Luongo retires after a few more lackluster playoff exits, while the team is forced to keep $4+mill of his cap hit under their salary cap for a retired player?

Again, you're full of future predictions, but don't think that they have any more likelihood of happening than anyone else's predictions here. You do however love to paint that picture of doom and gloom if the team isn't able to, or simply doesn't do, what you think they should.

Funny you bring that up because I never said I would move the Sedins for Jokinen. Making up crap like that only hurts your argument.

Re: Sedins for Gaborik and Cammalleri. Sure it probably would have been a mistake, but Cammalleri has proven in limited opportunity to be a much better playoff performer than anyone in the bunch. Even though we kept the Sedins, where's our Stanley Cup? No Cup? I guess improvement somewhere is needed.

What FA's are available that will help our roster? Cap space is only valuable if you have players to spend it on. If all we are using this cap space for are tweeners like we currently have on our roster, how exactly does that help us? This is the same team that's proven it can't get it done yet you want to devalue our assets by dumping Luongo for garbage?

 

[canucksfan]

If Luongo goes for garbage then Gillis should be fired because he didn't do his job and didn't do what's best for the team. Luongo + the massive return we could get for Schneider is worth a hell of a lot more than Schneider + a garbage return for Luongo. There's really no way you can spin it.

That's where Gillis screwed up. I believe he felt he could get a really good return for Luongo when in fact he couldn't and it isn't going to get better. With Luongo's trade request and basically telling Cory he is the #1 goalie, it would be hard now to trade Cory.

 

[Ciccio1980]

Here's the deal there's 0 interest in luongos contract if you can't trade him before the deadline in the summer when the cap goes down teams like Florida will probably wait because they know you might have to buy him out

 

[MikeK]

Here's the deal there's 0 interest in luongos contract if you can't trade him before the deadline in the summer when the cap goes down teams like Florida will probably wait because they know you might have to buy him out

Does it hurt?

 

[canucksfan]

Here's the deal there's 0 interest in luongos contract if you can't trade him before the deadline in the summer when the cap goes down teams like Florida will probably wait because they know you might have to buy him out

Apparently Florida is pleased with Markstrom. I doubt Florida will want him. Only two teams I can think of are the Leafs and Lightning.

 

[Bgav]

Feels like theirs gonna be a trade today :p

 

[Dado]

This has become just another GM/Luongo thread. I'm going to start blowing away Luongo/Schneider debate - there are already threads for that.

 

[keslerburrows]

Feels like theirs gonna be a trade today :p

I have felt this away on every non game day in the last 10 days.

 

[dyanc2000]

There is no point in combining the Luongo situation with this team lack of offense. It's simply deflecting the main issue where there is currently an extremely small market for Luongo, and to a lesser degree, goalies in general, with a number of goalies available. And at the same time, there is a premium for top 6 forwards, especially those perceived to be playoff performers.

Conclusion: Just forget it, we won't get anything close to an impact top 6 for Luongo.

IMO, getting something back for Luongo that does not have term (draft picks, pending UFA) is ideal. We need the flexibility to creatively reshape this team in the offseason, while taking a lucky stab at this postseason.