Post-Game Talk: Canucks 5 Oilers 2 - My kids are better than your kids!

[Shareefruck]

Well I don't know what each posters position on every player is and I'm not charging you personally with having done the above. But I'm saying that your "limiting" of Jake is just as unfounded as other posters limiting of Horvat. You have a right to your opinion of course and that is fine, I'm simply pointing out that in this case the opinion you have is quite hard for any of us to "know". Saying Jake had a good or bad game today is a very valid opinion to have. Saying his hockey sense will always be what you see today is less valid because history has shown that fans in general are very bad at projecting what 18 or 19 year old kids will become.

So if you think Jake has a hard limit on his hockey IQ, fine I guess. But honestly neither you nor I really have any idea whether that is true.

But it's not! They aren't similar scenarios at all. There was NO reason whatsoever to be pessimistic of Horvat's offensive upside and relating it to a third liner. He didn't show limited ability as an 18 year old (except in the sense that you wouldn't expect him to become Crosby)-- it was flat out backwards-ass thinking ("he was also great at everything that isn't scoring, therefore he's a limited scorer"). There IS a reason to be pessimistic of Virtanen's hockey IQ no longer becoming a relative weakness, because to this point, he hasn't shown much promise of the contrary yet.

But I don't think I ever did proclaim that Jake has a hard limit on his hockey IQ (at least that was never my intention, if I worded it that way). I'm just not optimistic/expecting that to be something that will make a full turn around. It would be shocking if he did, but sometimes we get shocked by young players.

If you're not charging me personally with having done the above, then why bother firing this at me?:

So expecting a 9th overall pick to never develop into more than a face off specialist 3C is your idea of "measured" expectations?

That's what I responded to. In my view, it was an accusation that came out of left field, like I was defending it all along or something.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Oh come on.

You know that Vey is getting the golden boy treatment.

Not golden boy, golden child.

 

[Reign Nateo]

I think Horvat has proved his ceiling is unlimited. Hrs absolutely special and has the potential to be a 1C. What a great trade, rarely do you see a #1 goaltender traded for a player of this caliber

Hated that trade and still believe Cory Schneider should be the starting goalie Vancouver right now as we speak with Gillis as GM, but god damn I would hate to not have Horvat on this team.

 

[CanaFan]

If you're not charging me personally with having done the above, then why bother firing this at me?:
That's what I responded to. In my view, it was an accusation that came out of left field, like I was defending it all along or something.

Well cause you did (seemingly) defend it in your post at the top of the previous page:

I don't think we are setting hard caps, just arguing what's likely and what's unlikely.

Even knowing what we know now, I still think that it would have been unrealistic at the time to be optimistic that Horvat could improve his speed to a degree which would make him one of the fastest players on the team, or that Kesler would improve his shot to a degree where he could score 40 goals on the strength of it.

Those things can and did happen (and very reasonably shocked people), but it was still very reasonable to be down on them and skeptical early on, IMO.

Anyway, I disagree that Jake hasn't shown flashes of a higher hockey IQ than what he is often given credit for around here ("low", "poor", "terrible"). He definitely showed it last night on both his assists to Horvat and on a couple of other plays that didn't result in goals. I've acknowledged it is something he needs to work on and be more consistent in, but I disagree strongly that these things are impossible.

You say you haven't seen it, then I would ask how much you've actually watched Jake play because he does flash "good" IQ at times, particularly when he is paired with other skilled players (Horvat last night, Brayden Point over the summer and at WJC). To me it's a matter of him "choosing" to play a certain way rather than a fundamental iq impediment.

 

[arttk]

Hated that trade and still believe Cory Schneider should be the starting goalie Vancouver right now as we speak with Gillis as GM, but god damn I would hate to not have Horvat on this team.

Honestly if Horvat can develop like Monahan, that trade is going to set us up for the next 10+ years.

#1 C >>>>>>> #1 Goalie in my opinion.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Botch on point again.

The way Willie talks, it's like he wouldn't know a special hockey player if he got run over by one. It's just so funny.

I think it's worth noting - a lot of us are hard on Benning and Co. for their preferential treatment of a guy like Vey. But Desjardins has also freely admitted that if he had his way, Horvat probably wouldn't have stuck around last year either. It was Benning that forced his hand.

You take the good with the bad, I guess.

 

[CanaFan]

Honestly if Horvat can develop like Monahan, that trade is going to set us up for the next 10+ years.

#1 C >>>>>>> #1 Goalie in my opinion.

Agree. Positionally a 1C (which Horvat *potentially* is) is rarer and harder to obtain than a top 10 goalie. We also had Eddie Lack in the wings at the time and his performance last year was only a small notch below Schneider's 2012-13 season. At the time, the options were either having Luongo + Lack + Horvat or having Schneider + Lack + scraps (for Lu). In total value the first scenario is easily superior. The subsequent fact that both Lu and Lack were later traded has no bearing on the correctness of the decision at the time.

 

[Vtownfan]

Man, what a difference a day or a game can make. Game has to shift tectonically any view on any final lineup. Hard to know if the Oilers mailed it in but that looked like domination.


Sbisa - there will probably be criticism of Sbisa (just b/c it's Sbisa) in this game but in this case it is IMO unwarranted. His puck movement was excellent and he handles the Oiler speed very well. Also took the body well around the net. I saw no glaring errors and lots to be encouraged about. Hopefully people give him is due when he plays well and don't let some agenda guide their views. Sbisa plays like this and he will not hurt the team.

I think Sbisa looked decent for two reasons.

One Hutton has made everyone he has played with look good.


Two and more important, Sbisa was playing on the right side. I think being on his offside made him play a simpler game as he had less options with the puck than he would on his natural side. Because of this he was making smart, simple plays to move the puck instead of his normal poor decisions, trying to do to much and serving up pizzas.

His positioning was off at times due to the change of sides, but his decisions were way better.

 

[Vtownfan]

I think it's worth noting - a lot of us are hard on Benning and Co. for their preferential treatment of a guy like Vey. But Desjardins has also freely admitted that if he had his way, Horvat probably wouldn't have stuck around last year either. It was Benning that forced his hand.

You take the good with the bad, I guess.

Slick Willie is like many coaches at the NHL level. Deep down most do not want to play youth. Youth means more work to develop and more mistakes as they learn. Most NHL coaches would take a lesser talented player they are familiar with (Vey) than take a risk on the kid they have to teach the NHL game (McCann).\

The odd thing is Willie was supposedly brought in due to his good work with the youth on the Stars farm team. I think once he got out from behind an AHL bench and behind an NHL beach he decided he had had enough years teaching kids in the WHL and AHL and just is not going to do it anymore.

 

[I am toxic]

Well cause you did (seemingly) defend it in your post at the top of the previous page:



Anyway, I disagree that Jake hasn't shown flashes of a higher hockey IQ than what he is often given credit for around here ("low", "poor", "terrible"). He definitely showed it last night on both his assists to Horvat and on a couple of other plays that didn't result in goals. I've acknowledged it is something he needs to work on and be more consistent in, but I disagree strongly that these things are impossible.

You say you haven't seen it, then I would ask how much you've actually watched Jake play because he does flash "good" IQ at times, particularly when he is paired with other skilled players (Horvat last night, Brayden Point over the summer and at WJC). To me it's a matter of him "choosing" to play a certain way rather than a fundamental iq impediment.

That's exactly how I see it, having seen (and watched closely) JV live at the second preseason game, and watching him closely on the televised games. I think his IQ is fine. With NHL experience I believe he will improve just like Horvat did.

 

[CanaFan]

Slick Willie is like many coaches at the NHL level. Deep down most do not want to play youth. Youth means more work to develop and more mistakes as they learn. Most NHL coaches would take a lesser talented player they are familiar with (Vey) than take a risk on the kid they have to teach the NHL game (McCann).\

The odd thing is Willie was supposedly brought in due to his good work with the youth on the Stars farm team. I think once he got out from behind an AHL bench and behind an NHL beach he decided he had had enough years teaching kids in the WHL and AHL and just is not going to do it anymore.

This is true. Most coaches get fired due to missing the playoffs, not for "blocking" youth and the like. It is simple self-preservation, not to mention basic competitiveness. Willie wants to win games today, not in 2018 or 2019 when the benefits of playing Jake, McCann, etc would be manifest.

That said, it IS the role of Benning and Linden to be looking beyond just the next game (which is WD's role) and to be influencing roster decisions based on more than just what WD sees as his best option today. And they did do that with Horvat last year, so it isn't without some precedent. I just hope they give enough priority to the rebuilding efforts of this team and not focus solely on a playoff berth this year.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Slick Willie is like many coaches at the NHL level. Deep down most do not want to play youth. Youth means more work to develop and more mistakes as they learn. Most NHL coaches would take a lesser talented player they are familiar with (Vey) than take a risk on the kid they have to teach the NHL game (McCann).\

The odd thing is Willie was supposedly brought in due to his good work with the youth on the Stars farm team. I think once he got out from behind an AHL bench and behind an NHL beach he decided he had had enough years teaching kids in the WHL and AHL and just is not going to do it anymore.

That's possible. Although one could argue that whether by happenstance or intelligent design, Horvat's development path last year was excellent. Even if Willie was initially reluctant, I think Horvat benefitted/will benefit over the long haul from how last year was handled.

Truth be told, I could see management leaning on Desjardins again to try someone like Virtanen. There's a reasonable argument to be made that the physical aspects of Virtanen are ready for the show, and it's his brain that needs to be coached into NHL mode - something that likely won't occur if he goes back to Junior.

 

[Win One Before I Die]

Slick Willie is like many coaches at the NHL level. Deep down most do not want to play youth. Youth means more work to develop and more mistakes as they learn. Most NHL coaches would take a lesser talented player they are familiar with (Vey) than take a risk on the kid they have to teach the NHL game (McCann).\

The odd thing is Willie was supposedly brought in due to his good work with the youth on the Stars farm team. I think once he got out from behind an AHL bench and behind an NHL beach he decided he had had enough years teaching kids in the WHL and AHL and just is not going to do it anymore.

If that is the case he is in the wrong game. The NHL is a young mans game. The vets are career wondering free agents can't find jobs anymore. There are a ton of guys who are getting released from pro tryouts in favour of youth. Not to mention cap space.

There is no real explanation for why Vey is on this team besides being a waste of a 2nd rounder. Do not even try to make sense of it, just accept the fact they're going to beat this dead horse until its a fine paste.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

Cracknell Vey Prust should be the next set of cuts.

 

[arsmaster*]

Cracknell Vey Prust should be the next set of cuts.

Vey for sure.

I actually quite like the idea of Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett as the 4th line. Exactly what we all want from a 4th line. Prust is improving IMO, and was good along the wall.

Sure it would be nice for Gaunce to make it, but he'll get games here this year, I have no doubts.

Ronnie can get to Utica without waivers, hasn't done enough to cement a spot in the opening lineup, but he'll be back for sure.

My opening night lineup, if I'm making it today.

Twins-Vrbata
Baertschi-Horvat-Virtanen (you have go back to this line after last night)
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen
Prust-McCann-Dorsett
Cracknell

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-Hutton
Biega-Bartkowski
Weber-Sbisa

I'd carry 8 dmen.

I think both Vey and Corrado get down to Utica.

 

[MarkMM]

I'll have to slightly disagree with this.

Management must have felt VERY confident in

1) Markstrom's ability to take over the crease within two years
2) Markstrom ultimately becoming a better goalie than Eddie Lack.

Time will tell obviously, but I am of the opinion that the above two points will hold true.

The problem in keeping Lack is that you'd have to sign him for 3+ years - probably around 3.5-4 million....if we're being optimistic (my guess is that Lack would have wanted at least 4-5 years). With Miller, at least his contract expires in two seasons.

And I do think that having some kind of pedigree at a high level is a factor. Miller played in the 2010 Olympic finals and that experience is something you can't ignore. Whether we like it or not, Miller did have a brief stretch there where he was an elite goalie. That experience helps if the Canucks manage to make the playoffs (and don't use last season as an example as Miller entered Game 5 still injured and rusty after a long layoff).

I think Benning made the right move in keeping Miller and parting ways with Eddie Lack. Lack would have wanted term, and given management's apparent confidence in Markstrom, signing Lack to a long term deal wouldn't have made sense.

Reasonable points, but I don't think it's either or. We could sign Lack to a long-term deal that would have been less than Miller's $6M, so there'd be room to also sign Markstrom should he pan out and gives us a solid Lack locked up on a long-term deal that we can trade when the right deal comes along because we wouldn't have a cap problem carrying both if necessary.

 

[Mofletz]

Would Corrado get picked up from waivers??

 

[Diamonddog01]

Reasonable points, but I don't think it's either or. We could sign Lack to a long-term deal that would have been less than Miller's $6M, so there'd be room to also sign Markstrom should he pan out and gives us a solid Lack locked up on a long-term deal that we can trade when the right deal comes along because we wouldn't have a cap problem carrying both if necessary.

Ehh Lack at a cap hit of 4M is not really a great option if he's simply going to be a backup. I've stated before I think Miller is simply a placeholder until Markstrom is ready. If he turns into a good, legit NHL starter, then I feel the Miller signing will have been justified. It's more long-term / big picture thinking.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Would Corrado get picked up from waivers??

Doubt it

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

Vey for sure.

I actually quite like the idea of Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett as the 4th line. Exactly what we all want from a 4th line. Prust is improving IMO, and was good along the wall.

Sure it would be nice for Gaunce to make it, but he'll get games here this year, I have no doubts.

Ronnie can get to Utica without waivers, hasn't done enough to cement a spot in the opening lineup, but he'll be back for sure.

My opening night lineup, if I'm making it today.

Twins-Vrbata
Baertschi-Horvat-Virtanen (you have go back to this line after last night)
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen
Prust-McCann-Dorsett
Cracknell

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-Hutton
Biega-Bartkowski
Weber-Sbisa

I'd carry 8 dmen.

I think both Vey and Corrado get down to Utica.

Couple points of disagreement:

-Weber has outplayed Biega. Biega is maybe the 6th or 7th best D right now, but I haven't like his overall game as much as others.
-Cracknell and Prust are just too slow to face NHL competition. Maybe keep one of them, but both on a line will get roasted by a team like Calgary.
I would keep one of Gaunce or Kenins to give some speed to the 4th line. Unless Gaunce is hurt.
-I know none of this will happen, but it's fun to dream.

 

[Rex Banner]

Would Corrado get picked up from waivers??

Probably, though it doesn't seem like much of a potential loss at this point.

 

[SergioMomesso]

Watching Hutton make confident moves coming out of his own end and not just firing the puck out off the glass to get out of trouble has won me over. Not one of our other dmen has the ability to do that.

 

[Rex Banner]

Watching Hutton make confident moves coming out of his own end and not just firing the puck out off the glass to get out of trouble has won me over. Not one of our other dmen has the ability to do that.

Agreed. He has a top pairing skillset.

 

[arsmaster*]

Couple points of disagreement:

-Weber has outplayed Biega. Biega is maybe the 6th or 7th best D right now, but I haven't like his overall game as much as others.
-Cracknell and Prust are just too slow to face NHL competition. Maybe keep one of them, but both on a line will get roasted by a team like Calgary.
I would keep one of Gaunce or Kenins to give some speed to the 4th line. Unless Gaunce is hurt.
-I know none of this will happen, but it's fun to dream.

I don't think Weber has done anything in preseason, but he's probably ahead based on his body of work.

I wouldn't mind exploring the option of trading him.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Put hutton on the chris tanev training regiment