Post-Game Talk: Canucks 4 @ Wings 3 SO || We Got The Vey We Asked For But Not The One We Deserve.

[thepoeticgoblin]

Whereas for me, i see a 35 year old man who has been playing a fundamentally different style of game with a very different approach for all his life.

I think you take Miller for what he is...where when he's on, he can be really on...and when he's off, he can be really off.

I think at this point, it is what it is...Miller is gonna play like Miller. And the best hockey he seems to play, is when he's seeming most comfortable in playing his way. Just so happens that some of the worst hockey he seems to play, also occurs when he's playing his way and trying to do too much.

I'm just saying, having read all this and agreeing with most of it (even if I shortened it for quote-purposes), that I'd rather that we see what we have in Marky then letting Miller do his own thing and give us slightly less than average goaltending (stats wise). Marky is "youngish" still and has looked more comfortable than ever before in the big show and it benefits the organization to see if he's ready or not. There is more to gain by playing Marky than letting Miller be Miller. Had he greatly outplayed his backup it'd be another matter but I'd argue they have had similar seasons - which goes to show how much a goalie is dependent on good D to truly excel - albeit Miller has (obviously) played a ton more games.

 

[biturbo19]

I'm just saying, having read all this and agreeing with most of it (even if I shortened it for quote-purposes), that I'd rather that we see what we have in Marky then letting Miller do his own thing and give us slightly less than average goaltending (stats wise). Marky is "youngish" still and has looked more comfortable than ever before in the big show and it benefits the organization to see if he's ready or not. There is more to gain by playing Marky than letting Miller be Miller. Had he greatly outplayed his backup it'd be another matter but I'd argue they have had similar seasons - which goes to show how much a goalie is dependent on good D to truly excel - albeit Miller has (obviously) played a ton more games.

I don't disagree with that notion at all really.

I think Miller still has to be the de facto #1 for the time being, but taking a good long look at Markstrom in some real pressure games this year, important situations, ramping up the workload a bit, etc. has to be a priority. Depending on how that goes...next season, maybe you move right into a 50/50 split or even start skewing it Marky's way if he shows he's the more capable option.

Tied into that same notion...Miller is old. He's only getting older. Just as i don't think he's got the time to burn on reinventing his play style, beyond next season...he's not going to be a starting option. That's where we need to know just what we've got in Markstrom...whether he can be a #1a/b type, or if he's a career backup, or a total bust.

Come the Summer of 2017, we're going to need to know what we're looking for in net. At least 1 goaltender from outside the organization is going to be needed. Whether that's a backup, a #1b type, a bona fide starter, or all of the above...that's contingent on what Markstrom shows he's capable of this year and next. And that's something we're only going to learn with a substantial audition process.

 

[mossey3535]

I don't disagree with that notion at all really.

I think Miller still has to be the de facto #1 for the time being, but taking a good long look at Markstrom in some real pressure games this year, important situations, ramping up the workload a bit, etc. has to be a priority. Depending on how that goes...next season, maybe you move right into a 50/50 split or even start skewing it Marky's way if he shows he's the more capable option.

Tied into that same notion...Miller is old. He's only getting older. Just as i don't think he's got the time to burn on reinventing his play style, beyond next season...he's not going to be a starting option. That's where we need to know just what we've got in Markstrom...whether he can be a #1a/b type, or if he's a career backup, or a total bust.

Come the Summer of 2017, we're going to need to know what we're looking for in net. At least 1 goaltender from outside the organization is going to be needed. Whether that's a backup, a #1b type, a bona fide starter, or all of the above...that's contingent on what Markstrom shows he's capable of this year and next. And that's something we're only going to learn with a substantial audition process.

So basically what you are saying is that Miller is what he is and isn't going to change. He has no chance to improve whatsoever.

So we can do nothing about his $6M contract and it's ok that he keeps starting and giving us average to below average goaltending.

I'm sorry to me that is not acceptable.

Plus, in that case why would we keep starting him? He is what he is right? So why not start Markstrom.

First of all I do believe he can tweak his game. I mean on Datsyuk's goal - stand up. This isn't 'modern goaltending' it's basic goaltending no matter what your style is.

I think you and Ozone are chalking this up to some nebulous goaltending theories that you have quite literally made up from somewhere that really bear no semblance to reality. And they fly directly in the face of actual goaltending play around the league that has proven to be VERY effective.

What neither of you understand is that by going back to his normal game he has committed himself to exactly the kind of limbo you're trying to advocate against. The reason even Corsi tried to modernize his game is because his normal game doesn't work. No amount of working with a different goalie coach is going to keep teams like the Wings from trying and succeeding to pass around aggressive positioning.

Anyways I refuse to accept that Miller can't improve by tweaking his game because I refuse to accept that such an expensive and integral part of the team will be this bad forever. And because there is a long long list of goalies who have modernized their games to extend their careers in the league. I don't see why a former Vezina winner with tons of physical tools can't effect that change. And even if we did decide to try to get rid of Miller, from a team standpoint it's better if he turns his game around so he will be a valued commodity instead of what he is now.

 

[mossey3535]

I just reread this part, and I am now wondering what you are actually saying here...
Hmmm...

Are you saying he is 'very thoughtful' and incredibly mindful about his in-game thought process, and others (coaches) are messing with his head? In other words, he is smart enough to know better, but not smart enough to address this?

Or, are the 'purported' stories exaggerated about his in-game mental prowess?

Either way, it's interesting to think about. Who really knows?

Supposedly he has to have any changes to his game explained to him and accept them, and he works a lot on his game.

And yet he's getting passed around for being aggressive so his solution is - be more aggressive.

Even in the days where standup goaltending was more prevalent, the solution to "I'm being passed around constantly" is not to be more aggressive.

I don't know how you could spend hours watching tape on how Miller is getting scored on and conclude that all the things Rollie has been telling him need to go into the trash bin and he needs to go back to a super aggressive style.

Personally from watching him here the last two years I think the stories of his preparation are more about how much time he puts into it and how meticulous he is about it rather than how intelligently he processes the game and his tendencies.

 

[biturbo19]

So basically what you are saying is that Miller is what he is and isn't going to change. He has no chance to improve whatsoever.

So we can do nothing about his $6M contract and it's ok that he keeps starting and giving us average to below average goaltending.

I'm sorry to me that is not acceptable.

Plus, in that case why would we keep starting him? He is what he is right? So why not start Markstrom.

First of all I do believe he can tweak his game. I mean on Datsyuk's goal - stand up. This isn't 'modern goaltending' it's basic goaltending no matter what your style is.

I think you and Ozone are chalking this up to some nebulous goaltending theories that you have quite literally made up from somewhere that really bear no semblance to reality. And they fly directly in the face of actual goaltending play around the league that has proven to be VERY effective.

What neither of you understand is that by going back to his normal game he has committed himself to exactly the kind of limbo you're trying to advocate against. The reason even Corsi tried to modernize his game is because his normal game doesn't work. No amount of working with a different goalie coach is going to keep teams like the Wings from trying and succeeding to pass around aggressive positioning.

Anyways I refuse to accept that Miller can't improve by tweaking his game because I refuse to accept that such an expensive and integral part of the team will be this bad forever. And because there is a long long list of goalies who have modernized their games to extend their careers in the league. I don't see why a former Vezina winner with tons of physical tools can't effect that change. And even if we did decide to try to get rid of Miller, from a team standpoint it's better if he turns his game around so he will be a valued commodity instead of what he is now.

Again, he's 35 years old...he's got maybe a couple good years left in him at best. What's his impetus to change what he's always done, even if you believe the core of his game can be completely renovated 35 years in? He's got a couple years at most to realize any benefits of these massive changes at this point...and that's not counting the time it will still inevitably take him to adjust. At this point, it's change for changes sake.

Ultimately what he does with "his game" provides inconsistent from play to play and week to week, but overall capable goaltending. There are plays he's going to misread, situations where he's going to expose backdoor plays more than normal, instances of him getting caught wandering out of his crease in the wrong direction. But there are also going to be instances of saves and even intimidated misses that aren't there with "the new norm". I think you take it at what it is, and roll with it...ride him when he's feeling it, see what Markstrom can do when he's not. Acknowledge that Miller isn't some big part of the future...

If what you want is a robot modern goaltender, then Miller is not what you want. Trying to make that happen is like dressing a cowboy up as a scientist. He might pull it off for a bit when the situation is mild, but when the **** hits the fan, he's always going to pull out his gun and start shooting from the hip.


I mean sure...there are "tweaks" to Millers game that can surely be applied. And have been in various forms. But these are tweaks.

When you start talking about Miller's propensity to challenge aggressively, attack his anticipated read of the play, gain depth...these aren't "tweaks". That's the core of what Miller knows as a goaltender.

The efficiency of modern goaltending philosophy may be an improvement over the old model for a student of that new school...but you're busting in here suggesting that Miller ought to change the core tenets of his goaltending approach that has led him to a Vezina trophy for being the best goaltender in the best league on earth, Olympic medals, many great seasons at the highest level and millions and millions of dollars in contracts in compensation for his work done "his way". At age 35, when his career is near finished.

If you're Miller...are you making that drastic change? Do you as an old man, believe you're going to somehow in the course of a season or two...learn to "out-modern" the millions of kids who have been learning this new "craft" since they were old enough to strap on a set of goal-pads half their entire height in Timbits hockey?

No.

 

[thepoeticgoblin]

I don't disagree with that notion at all really.

I think Miller still has to be the de facto #1 for the time being, but taking a good long look at Markstrom in some real pressure games this year, important situations, ramping up the workload a bit, etc. has to be a priority. Depending on how that goes...next season, maybe you move right into a 50/50 split or even start skewing it Marky's way if he shows he's the more capable option.

Tied into that same notion...Miller is old. He's only getting older. Just as i don't think he's got the time to burn on reinventing his play style, beyond next season...he's not going to be a starting option. That's where we need to know just what we've got in Markstrom...whether he can be a #1a/b type, or if he's a career backup, or a total bust.

Come the Summer of 2017, we're going to need to know what we're looking for in net. At least 1 goaltender from outside the organization is going to be needed. Whether that's a backup, a #1b type, a bona fide starter, or all of the above...that's contingent on what Markstrom shows he's capable of this year and next. And that's something we're only going to learn with a substantial audition process.

Yeah, pretty much this. I hope we see more of Marky then in b2b's. Don't want to see him get an extended look when the season is dead and/or the tank is on. One would hope management got the same idea as you regarding Miller/Markström but so far we are seeing the same over reliance on Miller as last year IMO.

 

[mossey3535]

Again, he's 35 years old...he's got maybe a couple good years left in him at best. What's his impetus to change what he's always done, even if you believe the core of his game can be completely renovated 35 years in? He's got a couple years at most to realize any benefits of these massive changes at this point...and that's not counting the time it will still inevitably take him to adjust. At this point, it's change for changes sake.

Ultimately what he does with "his game" provides inconsistent from play to play and week to week, but overall capable goaltending. There are plays he's going to misread, situations where he's going to expose backdoor plays more than normal, instances of him getting caught wandering out of his crease in the wrong direction. But there are also going to be instances of saves and even intimidated misses that aren't there with "the new norm". I think you take it at what it is, and roll with it...ride him when he's feeling it, see what Markstrom can do when he's not. Acknowledge that Miller isn't some big part of the future...

If what you want is a robot modern goaltender, then Miller is not what you want. Trying to make that happen is like dressing a cowboy up as a scientist. He might pull it off for a bit when the situation is mild, but when the **** hits the fan, he's always going to pull out his gun and start shooting from the hip.


I mean sure...there are "tweaks" to Millers game that can surely be applied. And have been in various forms. But these are tweaks.

When you start talking about Miller's propensity to challenge aggressively, attack his anticipated read of the play, gain depth...these aren't "tweaks". That's the core of what Miller knows as a goaltender.

The efficiency of modern goaltending philosophy may be an improvement over the old model for a student of that new school...but you're busting in here suggesting that Miller ought to change the core tenets of his goaltending approach that has led him to a Vezina trophy for being the best goaltender in the best league on earth, Olympic medals, many great seasons at the highest level and millions and millions of dollars in contracts in compensation for his work done "his way". At age 35, when his career is near finished.

If you're Miller...are you making that drastic change? Do you as an old man, believe you're going to somehow in the course of a season or two...learn to "out-modern" the millions of kids who have been learning this new "craft" since they were old enough to strap on a set of goal-pads half their entire height in Timbits hockey?

No.

Bit, your real problem is that you take one aspect like 'aggressive positioning' and you make that out to be the core of Miller's game. Then you try to construct this specious argument around one misguided assumption about how changing that is not only impossible but that somehow it's justified that he continue being the starter with the numbers he is putting up during a time when he is clearly ignoring the work he's done with not only this goalie coach but the previous three. And on top of that you have the audacity to suggest that 3-5 game streaks of sub .900 goaltending interspersed with two or three .920 games is 'overall capable goaltending'.

The core of Miller's game is his athleticism and ability to read plays. That will not change if he accepts the tweaks he needs to make to his game. It will simply strengthen what he already has.

And that's the whole point. I am not advocating for him to completely embrace the modern style. I've said this to you literally dozens of times. My hope for Miller here was that he could capture the elusive combination of his athleticism, ability to be aggressive, and the SMART implementation of newer techniques in SELECT circumstances.

Osgood was 35 when he started changing his game. When Rollie came here Luongo was 31, and when I watch him play today he has successfully integrated newer ideas but the core of his game is intact - AND continued to do so.

There are no excuses for Miller. Many of his issues stem not from embracing one style or another but sheer sloppiness. It has nothing to do with any of the yammering on you do about styles of play and philosophies that you seem to have no real comprehension about in the first place.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

mossey, I see what you see about 30. But he's terribly average and hould stop playing now. that's all.

 

[arttk]

mossey, I see what you see about 30. But he's terribly average and hould stop playing now. that's all.

Unfortunately he has about 9 million reasons to not quit.

 

[Zombotron]

This was a mind-screw. I thought the Canes were in the building...

 

[Hit the post]

Unfortunately he has about 9 million reasons to not quit.

Watch Benning give him a contract extension.