Post-Game Talk: Canucks 3 @ Habs 4 (OT) || *unintelligble yelling*

[CanaFan]

didnt you reply to that already?

You edited after my post.

Look, I'll give you that the first 4 game conclusions were crap, they were mainly for effect. But there conclusion wasn't dependent on them being rock solid. As you say, Miller's sav% *obviously* drives this team's chances for a top 5 pick more than the Sedins PPG.

If you don't disagree - and I haven't heard you say you do - then how bout we quit grinding each other's gears and agree this team can be as good or bad as our goaltending allows.

 

[Verviticus]

You edited after my post.

you're right, sorry (i did most of that posting on my phone)

Look, I'll give you that the first 4 game conclusions were crap, they were mainly for effect. But there conclusion wasn't dependent on them being rock solid. As you say, Miller's sav% *obviously* drives this team's chances for a top 5 pick more than the Sedins PPG.

If you don't disagree - and I haven't heard you say you do - then how bout we quit grinding each other's gears and agree this team can be as good or bad as our goaltending allows.

i mean... i think daniel and henriks performance is more important than the possible performance of ryan miller (if for no other reason than they are two players instead of one). obviously if he actually sustains a .897 over the entire season and we're stupid enough to keep playing him, he will individually tank the team (and the opposite if he posts a .955). i hate miller and our coach, but even i dont think the combination of the two of them is bad enough to cause that to happen, lol

so i guess i disagree that he is more important than the two of them, but you're right insofar that its probably closer than people assume

edit: i mean, for context - a .897 is what i would expect if

A: miller and markstrom were season-injured
B: we called up bachmann
C: he played every single game until season end

even then i think there's a 50/50 he's above .897

 

[CanaFan]

you're right, sorry (i did most of that posting on my phone)



i mean... i think daniel and henriks performance is more important than the possible performance of ryan miller (if for no other reason than they are two players instead of one). obviously if he actually sustains a .897 over the entire season and we're stupid enough to keep playing him, he will individually tank the team (and the opposite if he posts a .955). i hate miller and our coach, but even i dont think the combination of the two of them is bad enough to cause that to happen, lol

so i guess i disagree that he is more important than the two of them, but you're right insofar that its probably closer than people assume

edit: i mean, for context - a .897 is what i would expect if

A: miller and markstrom were season-injured
B: we called up bachmann
C: he played every single game until season end

even then i think there's a 50/50 he's above .897

K, I think I finally get your objection now that you've laid it out a bit.

But my point wasn't to suggest Miller *will* continue to play at his current dismal .897 sv% - I mean he might but I have no way of predicting his performance - but simply that his play *is* capable of torpedoing this team to a top 5 pick, regardless of what the Sedins might realistically do (i.e. excluding scenarios where they go super sayan and finish 1-2 in league scoring).

It was merely to counter the blanket statement that this team *cannot* finish bottom 5 so long as the hallowed Sedins are on the roster.

Because as far as I see they are on the roster and even producing at a strong (1.8 combined) clip yet we are 4-6-5 at the same time, which is pace for a 71 point season and a high pick.

Will it happen? Maybe, maybe not. It would be surprising even for me if Miller remained this poor, yet he is 35 and clearly declining.

Can it happen? Damn skippy.

 

[alternate]

I'm still not sold on this idea of Hamhuis deteriorating quickly, so much as he maybe just can't carry a garbage partner to the degree being asked of him, in "2nd pairing" type minutes.

But i think the bolded is absolutely the problem here. And it's been a glaring issue since well before the season started. This team is, and always was one solid "top-4D" short of a blueline you could feel good about.

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-#4
Hutton-Sbisa7

...would be a blueline i think you could feel pretty good about most nights. That's not a bad group. And having a guy like Bartkowski (or even Weber i guess) in reserve isn't that bad.

Not asking the world for a solid, proven #4D there either. But without that as we are...it just slides everybody else up and juggles them around in roles they're not ready or suited for, or capable of. Just puts everybody out of sorts and out of place.

And when injuries strike, even to a Luca Sbisa as they have...it goes from "suspect" to "bad".

Not really sure how much can be done about it now though, in season. Time has really passed to shore things up without expending assets.

I think it's more a #3 we need. If Hamhuis is the best defender on the pairing, the pairing probably isn't good enough if we want to be playing for real. Going into training camp I expected Corrado to grab the slot beside Hamhuis (and think Benning did too). Bit of a wrinkle in the plan there imo, and even with the emergence of Hutton, the disappointments of both Plan A (Corrado) and Plan B (Weber) for Hamhuis' partner is a big blow to the corp as a whole. Like you say, we need that 1 more top 4 guy.

Agreed it probably won't likely be this year. Benning is still in the "tearing down" phase of the blueline reno. Garrison, Bieksa and probably Hamhuis gone in 3 yeare. Fingers crossed, but hopefully Hutton is ready for full time top 4 duty sooner rather later. Be nice if Hamhuis could play the right side, but ultimately Benning's priority should be finding a RS Hamhuis replacement that fits with Hutton on the 2nd pairing.

 

[kanucks25]

I think it's more a #3 we need. If Hamhuis is the best defender on the pairing, the pairing probably isn't good enough if we want to be playing for real. Going into training camp I expected Corrado to grab the slot beside Hamhuis (and think Benning did too). Bit of a wrinkle in the plan there imo, and even with the emergence of Hutton, the disappointments of both Plan A (Corrado) and Plan B (Weber) for Hamhuis' partner is a big blow to the corp as a whole. Like you say, we need that 1 more top 4 guy.

Agreed it probably won't likely be this year. Benning is still in the "tearing down" phase of the blueline reno. Garrison, Bieksa and probably Hamhuis gone in 3 yeare. Fingers crossed, but hopefully Hutton is ready for full time top 4 duty sooner rather later. Be nice if Hamhuis could play the right side, but ultimately Benning's priority should be finding a RS Hamhuis replacement that fits with Hutton on the 2nd pairing.

I don't think this is true. Hamhuis can be the better player on the pairing, the other guy just has to be a legit 2nd-pairing guy himself.

Hamhuis has had to carry every partner he's played with since he got here (with the exception of Tanev), and over the past couple years he's mostly had 6's or 7's as his partner. Last year, the stretches that Weber and Sbisa actually played decently, Hamhuis was their partner.

Hamhuis isn't what he used to be but it's like he has zero margin for error 'cause he never gets help.



As for the Hutton, Biega would be the perfect fit. Hard-working, stay-at-home, responsible, tough right-handed defensive D-man who is arguably already better than 3 of the 7 D-men on our current roster. Hasn't been given a fair chance and it's really dumbfounding.

Edler - Tanev can be locked in as the 1st pairing, Hutton - Biega locked in as the 3rd, and then they can rotate Weber/Sbisa/Bartkowski on Hamhuis's right side on the 2nd pairing (whoever plays well, plays).

 

[StIllmatic]

Never had any difficulties understanding CanaFan's point. Thought it was obvious he was saying that the current season so far suggests that the quality of our season relies more on the level of goaltending than the Sedins' production. Or atleast, the Sedins by themselves cannot stop us from being a bottom feeder if Miller continues this poor level of play and keeps getting starts.

 

[biturbo19]

I don't think this is true. Hamhuis can be the better player on the pairing, the other guy just has to be a legit 2nd-pairing guy himself.

Hamhuis has had to carry every partner he's played with since he got here (with the exception of Tanev), and over the past couple years he's mostly had 6's or 7's as his partner. Last year, the stretches that Weber and Sbisa actually played decently, Hamhuis was their partner.

Hamhuis isn't what he used to be but it's like he has zero margin for error 'cause he never gets help.



As for the Hutton, Biega would be the perfect fit. Hard-working, stay-at-home, responsible, tough right-handed defensive D-man who is arguably already better than 3 of the 7 D-men on our current roster. Hasn't been given a fair chance and it's really dumbfounding.

Edler - Tanev can be locked in as the 1st pairing, Hutton - Biega locked in as the 3rd, and then they can rotate Weber/Sbisa/Bartkowski on Hamhuis's right side on the 2nd pairing (whoever plays well, plays).

Yeah. Agreed on Hamhuis.

I think he is still good enough to be the "best player" on a solid "2nd pairing". But it's a bit of a moving target, as when he's forced to carry a "#6 or #7", he himself ends up looking a lot more like a #4 who you might not want as the best player on the pairing. But if you give him a credible #4 type as a partner, i think you see Hamhuis suddenly looking a lot more like a great #3, arguably even a #2 calibre guy. Just giving him a partner who can largely carry their own weight would go a long ways toward shining a much more flattering light on Hamhuis.

I think back to the World's last year, playing with a stud like Burns...Hamhuis looked literally world class. Obviously we're not likely to find that calibre partner for him, but just getting a competent top-4 defenceman beside him would help a lot imo, in showing that he's still got game.

Sadly, just don't see much opportunity to find that piece this season. Guys might come available, but this team isn't in a position to be "deadline spending". It's something that absolutely should have been done in the summer.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Yeah. Agreed on Hamhuis.

I think he is still good enough to be the "best player" on a solid "2nd pairing". But it's a bit of a moving target, as when he's forced to carry a "#6 or #7", he himself ends up looking a lot more like a #4 who you might not want as the best player on the pairing. But if you give him a credible #4 type as a partner, i think you see Hamhuis suddenly looking a lot more like a great #3, arguably even a #2 calibre guy. Just giving him a partner who can largely carry their own weight would go a long ways toward shining a much more flattering light on Hamhuis.

I think back to the World's last year, playing with a stud like Burns...Hamhuis looked literally world class. Obviously we're not likely to find that calibre partner for him, but just getting a competent top-4 defenceman beside him would help a lot imo, in showing that he's still got game.

Sadly, just don't see much opportunity to find that piece this season. Guys might come available, but this team isn't in a position to be "deadline spending". It's something that absolutely should have been done in the summer.

I agree with this but there wasn't a whole lot on the market this summer to do that. There's Zaitsev and Byfuglien this year though so at least we have the ability to throw some money at either.

 

[VanJack]

Apparently Jim Benning was quoted as saying he's worried that the overtime record might come to define the season, and that it could cost the team a playoff spot...ya think?

 

[CanaFan]

Apparently Jim Benning was quoted as saying he's worried that the overtime record might come to define the season, and that it could cost the team a playoff spot...ya think?

Nah, Willie will eventually figure out how to effectively defend OT by putting out a rarely-used 3D formation consisting of Tanev, Sbisa, and Chris Higgins (slotting in as a Dman). All three will remain behind the centre line for 5 minutes and continually ice the puck until the penalty ... I mean OT ... is over.

Then we can finally start losing in the shootout instead. Problem solved!

 

[thepuckmonster]

Nah, Willie will eventually figure out how to effectively defend OT by putting out a rarely-used 3D formation consisting of Tanev, Sbisa, and Chris Higgins (slotting in as a Dman). All three will remain behind the centre line for 5 minutes and continually ice the puck until the penalty ... I mean OT ... is over.

Then we can finally start losing in the shootout instead. Problem solved!

The irony is that we've been a good shootout team the past season or so but we can't even get there to win games.

 

[CanaFan]

The irony is that we've been a good shootout team the past season or so but we can't even get there to win games.

And I think we *could* be good there again if Willie put guys like McCann, Bo, Virtanen, and Baertschi in the rotation. Shootouts are a normal part of hockey for kids that came up through Canadian hockey in the last decade and we finally have some to take advantage of that ... but as you say, we can't get there.

 

[thepuckmonster]

And I think we *could* be good there again if Willie put guys like McCann, Bo, Virtanen, and Baertschi in the rotation. Shootouts are a normal part of hockey for kids that came up through Canadian hockey in the last decade and we finally have some to take advantage of that ... but as you say, we can't get there.

Well we have won the only one we made it to so far this season.

That's 100%!

 

[CanaFan]

Well we have won the only one we made it to so far this season.

That's 100%!

Huh, ya I guess I blanked on that. Seems a distant memory ...

 

[VanJack]

I'm beginning to think that having a puck-handling goalie like Markstrom could be a real advantage on the 3-3....I notice that players are passing the puck back to their own goaltender to facilitate a line change so they don't lose possession, and the goalie has the option of either freezing it or firing it up the ice....Markstrom gets a lot of mustard on his clearances....I'm wondering who the first NHL coach will be to have the courage to swap out his goaltenders in OT?

 

[Hardyvan123]

i'd like to see them get 1000 pts with the canucks. trade them in their final year at the deadline for a nice return. Trading them now woud require the canucks taking on bad contracts from other teams just to make it work cap wise.

By the time Daniel gets to a 1000 points the Sedins trade value will be pretty much zilch.

Heck even Hank will be 36 by the time he hits 1000 points and his trade value on it's own would be exactly how much?

Even now it's almost impossible to trade them because of their salaries, as mentioned above.