Post-Game Talk: Canucks 0 @ Flyers 2 | 17/12/15 (MOD Warning Post #235)

[arttk]

Regardless of what you think Sutter is as a player...he was playing as our de facto #2C. With Bo mired in one gnarly mess of a sophomore slump...Sutter was playing top-2 Center minutes for our team. We could've had Tyler Seguin playing the 2nd most minutes on our team at Center instead of Sutter for all it matters to to the scenario of the top 2 minute playing center ice players going down to injury - result is the same.

There isn't a team in the league that could afford to lose both of it's two highest minute Centers at the same time, and not have their outlook take a steep nosedive for the duration of those injuries. That the Canucks were a middling team without any margin for issues in the first place is pretty irrelevant to the comment about our "depth down the middle" being so bad now that #1 and #2 on the depth chart are injured. Nobody has a spare #1 and #2 center just kicking around.

So of course our center depth is going to look miserable if you knock off the #1 and #2 on the depth chart at the same time. But that's universally true across nearly every team in the league save for...maybe St.Louis?

A couple season ago we lost Kesler for a large chunk and that didn't tank the team.

We lost Manny who is closer to what Sutter is and that didn't tank the team.

And you know what, all these lineups were at cap max.
It's insane how we can have a cap max team now and can't withstand an injury to ONE Brandon Sutter.

 

[m9]

The Canucks centre depth sucked when their third line centre got injured. Don't even try to chalk up this nightmarish garbage hockey team to bad luck and injuries. Before Henrik went down, they'd been pretty healthy overall. I mean, if losing a 35 point 2nd-line centre to injury derails your entire season and turns you into a bottom 5 team... you built a junk hockey team.

The team is bad because it has average goaltending, a terrible defense, and an average forward forward group. Nobody is saying the team sucks just because they lost Sutter, there are plenty of other reasons.

Sedin, Sutter, Horvat, and McCann is not bad up the middle. When Sutter gets hurt and Horvat has been a massive disappointment it puts you in a tough spot. How much center depth is a realistic amount?

 

[m9]

A couple season ago we lost Kesler for a large chunk and that didn't tank the team.

We lost Manny who is closer to what Sutter is and that didn't tank the team.

And you know what, all these lineups were at cap max.
It's insane how we can have a cap max team now and can't withstand an injury to ONE Brandon Sutter.

1. That team was better all-around and could withstand an injury.

2. The elephant in the room is that coming into the year Bo Horvat was thought to be ready to step into more of a role but has been a massive disappointment. That one is hard to predict.

 

[Powder]

2. The elephant in the room is that coming into the year Bo Horvat was thought to be ready to step into more of a role but has been a massive disappointment. That one is hard to predict.

It's the hard truth. I still fail to understand how he's slumping when he had such a great second-half last year, a great playoffs, and seemed to be continuing at that level if not better during the preseason. Each game he played, whether being the only NHL-notable in the lineup and facing an AHl/NHL squad or being in a NHL line-up facing a fully-ready team, he was among if not the best player on the ice. Something just happened when the actual season started. So weird.

Oh well, hope he goes back home to Ontario for the break like he did last year, gets his head straight, and come back with a new look, again, like last year. Season's not over.

 

[drax0s]

It's the hard truth. I still fail to understand how he's slumping when he had such a great second-half last year, a great playoffs, and seemed to be continuing at that level if not better during the preseason.

If I had to pinpoint the slump, I think it was when the kid line (Bae, Bo, Jake) was first tried and then immediately broken up in pre-season. He made that comment after the game about how he hoped that line stayed together for a long time and next game he was paired up with vets again. Maybe that did something to his confidence? Not sure.

 

[Tiranis]

Bo played well with Hansen & Kenins. Not so well without... Did we even try that in preseason? Not that I recall.

 

[Hit the post]

Sedin, Sutter, Horvat, and McCann is not bad up the middle. When Sutter gets hurt and Horvat has been a massive disappointment it puts you in a tough spot. How much center depth is a realistic amount?

Relying on a rookie and a sophomore isn't that great depth when you don't have a 'plan B'.

 

[arttk]

1. That team was better all-around and could withstand an injury.

2. The elephant in the room is that coming into the year Bo Horvat was thought to be ready to step into more of a role but has been a massive disappointment. That one is hard to predict.

1) That is the point. When you spend to cap max, you should have depth.

2) Even then there should be a backup plan incase things don't work. That is called poor planning. There is a reason why some posters like me were pissed that Richardson was't signed. He could've easily take on the hard matchups for Bo if he couldn't step up and if Bo could step up, we could just play him at 4.

 

[biturbo19]

A couple season ago we lost Kesler for a large chunk and that didn't tank the team.

We lost Manny who is closer to what Sutter is and that didn't tank the team.

And you know what, all these lineups were at cap max.
It's insane how we can have a cap max team now and can't withstand an injury to ONE Brandon Sutter.

Again, that has nothing to do with the comment whatsoever. You're trying to twist this into something else to suit your agenda here. This team has other problems and everyone is well aware of that. The center depth was suspect going into the season and i, among many others way griping about that at the time (though McCann kind of put that to bed when he came out of nowhere to boot Vey out of the mix). But that really doesn't have anything to do with the comment.


The point is...EVERY team in the league is going to have "terrible center depth" if you take their top two Centers out of the lineup. No matter how good those top two centers are...if you don't have them, and then evaluate the "depth" without them, it's going to come up poor for any team.


Our situation is exacerbated by the fact that, as m9 said above...Horvat's slumping season throws a huge wrench in the works. The reality is, Horvat was going to be one of the top-3 centers for this team, no matter what, no matter who was ahead of him. He's the future and he needs playing time and expanded opportunity (or at least, last year's play dictated as much). People would have been irate had he been pushed down to 4th line C to start the season (which would've also meant no McCann). And that's the only feasible way in which we would've had a "better" situation here, with Sutter and now Henrik both injured at the same time.

It sucks that Bo has taken a big step back, meaning that our young #3C is struggling hard...and if Henrik and Sutter are both taken off the board at the same time, that struggling #3C is thrust into the limelight...making our depth look absolutely laughable. But to reiterate again...there was no situation in which Bo Horvat would not be the "next man up" and new default #1C...short of having gone into the season with THREE centers penciled into the depth chart ahead of him (basically pinning him right back in his role from the beginning of last season).

 

[arttk]

Again, that has nothing to do with the comment whatsoever. You're trying to twist this into something else to suit your agenda here. This team has other problems and everyone is well aware of that. But that really doesn't have anything to do with the comment.


The point is...EVERY team in the league is going to have "terrible center depth" if you take their top two Centers out of the lineup. No matter how good those top two centers are...if you don't have them, and then evaluate the "depth" without them, it's going to come up poor for any team.


Our situation is exacerbated by the fact that, as m9 said above...Horvat's slumping season throws a huge wrench in the works. The reality is, Horvat was going to be one of the top-3 centers for this team, no matter what, no matter who was ahead of him. He's the future and he needs playing time and expanded opportunity (or at least, last year's play dictated as much). People would have been irate had he been pushed down to 4th line C to start the season (which would've also meant no McCann). And that's the only feasible way in which we would've had a "better" situation here, with Sutter and now Henrik both injured at the same time.

It sucks that Bo has taken a big step back, meaning that our young #3C is struggling hard...and if Henrik and Sutter are both taken off the board at the same time, that struggling #3C is thrust into the limelight...making our depth look absolutely laughable. But to reiterate again...there was no situation in which Bo Horvat would not be the "next man up" and new default #1C...short of having gone into the season with THREE centers penciled into the depth chart ahead of him (basically pinning him right back in his role from the beginning of last season).

Prior to last night, we only had 1 center gone and we were hovering around 24 in the league with all the teams behind us having games in hand and like 1-3 points back.

There is nothing to twist. We were poor, piss poor with just ONE injury to Sutter. How is that a twist?
Is the presence of Sutter the difference between a bottom 5 team and a playoff team?

I don't think most teams can withstand injuries to the 1st and 2nd line center but until last night, that wasn't the case.

 

[biturbo19]

Bo played well with Hansen & Kenins. Not so well without... Did we even try that in preseason? Not that I recall.

The preseason wasn't even the issue though. Horvat looked poised to keep right on rolling from his momentum at the end of last season, right through the preseason. What was tried in the preseason wasn't really the issue...

It was whatever happened, and what was tried when the real season hit. At which point, Kenins had been sent down (and deservedly so, after a lackluster preseason), and then injured in the minors, thus unavailable for reuniting that line.

They've tried a ton of things since then...nothing has really sparked anything. Horvat's line this year has mostly been where wingers go to die.

 

[Eddy Punch Clock]

Again, that has nothing to do with the comment whatsoever. You're trying to twist this into something else to suit your agenda here. This team has other problems and everyone is well aware of that. The center depth was suspect going into the season and i, among many others way griping about that at the time (though McCann kind of put that to bed when he came out of nowhere to boot Vey out of the mix). But that really doesn't have anything to do with the comment.


The point is...EVERY team in the league is going to have "terrible center depth" if you take their top two Centers out of the lineup. No matter how good those top two centers are...if you don't have them, and then evaluate the "depth" without them, it's going to come up poor for any team.


Our situation is exacerbated by the fact that, as m9 said above...Horvat's slumping season throws a huge wrench in the works. The reality is, Horvat was going to be one of the top-3 centers for this team, no matter what, no matter who was ahead of him. He's the future and he needs playing time and expanded opportunity (or at least, last year's play dictated as much). People would have been irate had he been pushed down to 4th line C to start the season (which would've also meant no McCann). And that's the only feasible way in which we would've had a "better" situation here, with Sutter and now Henrik both injured at the same time.

It sucks that Bo has taken a big step back, meaning that our young #3C is struggling hard...and if Henrik and Sutter are both taken off the board at the same time, that struggling #3C is thrust into the limelight...making our depth look absolutely laughable. But to reiterate again...there was no situation in which Bo Horvat would not be the "next man up" and new default #1C...short of having gone into the season with THREE centers penciled into the depth chart ahead of him (basically pinning him right back in his role from the beginning of last season).

I'm not a Benning supporter in any way... but I agree with everything you've said here.

I've got enough to dislike our GM for... two injured centres and one having a rough sophomore year is not one of them.

 

[m9]

1) That is the point. When you spend to cap max, you should have depth.

2) Even then there should be a backup plan incase things don't work. That is called poor planning. There is a reason why some posters like me were pissed that Richardson was't signed. He could've easily take on the hard matchups for Bo if he couldn't step up and if Bo could step up, we could just play him at 4.

How many backup plans can you have? Bo had already progressed past the 4th liner role last year. In Henrik, Horvat, and Sutter you have an excellent 1C, a very good 3C, and a rapidly ascending 3C who you probably will project to be 2C by the end of the year.

Coming into the year I felt better about that position than practically any on the team. There are holes all over the roster, not just at center.

 

[arttk]

The preseason wasn't even the issue though. Horvat looked poised to keep right on rolling from his momentum at the end of last season, right through the preseason. What was tried in the preseason wasn't really the issue...

It was whatever happened, and what was tried when the real season hit. At which point, Kenins had been sent down (and deservedly so, after a lackluster preseason), and then injured in the minors, thus unavailable for reuniting that line.

They've tried a ton of things since then...nothing has really sparked anything. Horvat's line this year has mostly been where wingers go to die.

They really should've used the preseason to let Bo develop chemistry with his wingers. Instead of doing that, he had like a different winger every game and once the real season started, we put Vrbata there and then a constant rotation of Baertschi/Virtanen and to make it even more fun, we switch out that winger in the 3rd period with some random guy.

If asking Bo to play the hard minutes is not hard enough, we had to make it harder by rotating different linemates every other game and even within the game.

 

[biturbo19]

Prior to last night, we only had 1 center gone and we were hovering around 24 in the league with all the teams behind us having games in hand and like 1-3 points back.

There is nothing to twist. We were poor, piss poor with just ONE injury to Sutter. How is that a twist?
Is the presence of Sutter the difference between a bottom 5 team and a playoff team?

I don't think most teams can withstand injuries to the 1st and 2nd line center but until last night, that wasn't the case.

But that's not the comment i was replying to. And has nothing to do with what i'm saying.


This team being poorly built with a craptastic defence and no star #2 Center is a separate issue, which you're trying to twist into my comment about a separate issue because you seem intent on harping on about the same thing over and over again despite there being no real disagreement about it. It does not apply.

Without Hank, this team certainly has the worst centre depth in the league. I'm certain of it. Our other 3 centres are a sophomore, a rookie, and an AHL lifer.

Let's let that sink in for a moment.

This comment.

To which i suggested, this is not a revelation...it's a universal truth for every team in the league. If you take away any team's top-2 minute centers, their depth down the middle is going to look like garbage. That's reality. You can only have so many Plan Bs. Especially if you want to give young, unreliable centers a chance to prove and establish themselves (like Bo Horvat).

What possible scenario can you put forward, in which Henrik and Sutter both being out, would result in anything other than Bo Horvat being our brand new #1 Center? The only way this is possible, is by placing THREE centers ahead of Bo on the depth chart.

 

[arttk]

How many backup plans can you have? Bo had already progressed past the 4th liner role last year. In Henrik, Horvat, and Sutter you have an excellent 1C, a very good 3C, and a rapidly ascending 3C who you probably will project to be 2C by the end of the year.

Coming into the year I felt better about that position than practically any on the team. There are holes all over the roster, not just at center.

How many backup plans? We have ZERO backup plan right now.

I listed this.

Henrik
Sutter
Bo
Vey
Jones
McCann


Was the plan coming into the season. Do you even see a backup plan there?

 

[Hit the post]

How many backup plans can you have? Bo had already progressed past the 4th liner role last year. In Henrik, Horvat, and Sutter you have an excellent 1C, a very good 3C, and a rapidly ascending 3C who you probably will project to be 2C by the end of the year.

Coming into the year I felt better about that position than practically any on the team. There are holes all over the roster, not just at center.

To me the blueline is especially bad - what was once an area of strength (before Benning got hired) to what it is now....a mess.

How many backup plans? We have ZERO backup plan right now.

I listed this.

Henrik
Sutter
Bo
Vey
Jones
McCann


Was the plan coming into the season. Do you even see a backup plan there?

heh, maybe Willie was smart using Sutter *as a winger* for a time just so that he could see how the team would react with injuries @ center.

 

[m9]

How many backup plans? We have ZERO backup plan right now.

I listed this.

Henrik
Sutter
Bo
Vey
Jones
McCann


Was the plan coming into the season. Do you even see a backup plan there?

The backup plan was that Bo Horvat would be pushing as a #2 center right now, and he hasn't.

 

[m9]

To me the blueline is especially bad - what was once an area of strength (before Benning got hired) to what it is now....a mess.

Yup. Bad all over the roster. If the team is healthy, center is probably the best position on the team. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it is what it is.

 

[arttk]

But that's not the comment i was replying to. And has nothing to do with what i'm saying.


This team being poorly built with a craptastic defence and no star #2 Center is a separate issue, which you're trying to twist into my comment about a separate issue because you seem intent on harping on about the same thing over and over again despite there being no real disagreement about it. It does not apply.

This comment.

To which i suggested, this is not a revelation...it's a universal truth for every team in the league. If you take away any team's top-2 minute centers, their depth down the middle is going to look like garbage. That's reality.

I did misread it what you wrote.
Anyhow, at this point, it seems like having Henrik or not won't make too much of a difference really. I mean we were trending bottom 5 with him already and we are at a point where we can't sink that much more.

 

[Hit the post]

Yup. Bad all over the roster. If the team is healthy, center is probably the best position on the team. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it is what it is.

Agree. Even when the blueline was healthy, there were real warts there.

 

[opendoor]

How many backup plans can you have? Bo had already progressed past the 4th liner role last year. In Henrik, Horvat, and Sutter you have an excellent 1C, a very good 3C, and a rapidly ascending 3C who you probably will project to be 2C by the end of the year.

Coming into the year I felt better about that position than practically any on the team. There are holes all over the roster, not just at center.

They clearly needed another veteran bottom 6 C who could play wing as well. If everything's going well he could play 3rd or 4th line W, and in a situation like we see now he could play center and take the hard matchups that Horvat has been thrown into.

You spend the $2.5M they blew on a redundant 4th line winger on C instead and the Canucks' young centers are in a much better place for development.

 

[arttk]

The backup plan was that Bo Horvat would be pushing as a #2 center right now, and he hasn't.

That is not a backup plan, that was THE plan. How else can you explain them trying Vrbata on his line for like the 1st 10 games.

There should've been a backup plan incase your sophomore center takes a step back. It's like the sophomore slump is not a new concept.

 

[Hit the post]

That is not a backup plan, that was THE plan. How else can you explain them trying Vrbata on his line for like the 1st 10 games.

There should've been a backup plan incase your sophomore center takes a step back. It's like the sophomore slump is not a new concept.

Can't have much of a backup plan if you're using too much cap space in other areas (to the point we're using a #7 D in the top four).

 

[m9]

That is not a backup plan, that was THE plan. How else can you explain them trying Vrbata on his line for like the 1st 10 games.

There should've been a backup plan incase your sophomore center takes a step back. It's like the sophomore slump is not a new concept.

If your whole point was that they needed a 4th line center, that's fine. I like Richardson too, who knows what the deal was there. My point is that there are issues everywhere on the roster and this same problem would occur under these circumstances at other positions.