Canes/Wings Postponed after ice cooling issue

[bleedblue94]

I feel like if this ever happens twice to the same team it should be an automatic forfeit (and a stern warning the first time). MSG has events of all kinds going on 24/7 and despite the ice being below average sometimes, it's always playable.

Apples and oranges. Having events has nothing to do with a malfunction in the plant...

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

I vote for Valentine's Day. I won't have anything else to do.

This thread is hitting a bit too close to home now...

 

[bleedblue94]

Another thing I forgot to mention that may apply here is if the bond is lost between the concrete and the ice, then the ice is junk regardless if it's still frozen. This is referred to as "popping."

Think of the kid in "a Christmas story" that licks the flag pole and how his tongue is stuck and bonded. If the ice isn't bonded tot he ice then each time you stride of dig into it chunks will just come flying out. It's perfectly possibly that they MAY have lost that bond and that was part of the guy skating on the ice. I'm not sure why they sent him out there bc the nhl has protical of how hard/cold the ice needs to be to play as a safety measure with the pa. That can be identified with slab sensors in the concrete flooring under the ice, or the infared sensors that read the the surface temp of the ice. Really anything under @16 degrees will be shale and breaking off everywhere, and over @23 degrees you will notice a significant decrease in the ice quality. If rbc is pulling it's ice tonight or tomorrow than you know they lost the bond. I'm not saying this is at all likely, just mentioning it as a possibility. I would expect that they id'ed the issues and repaired it in time to save the sheet, but who knows...

 

[bleedblue94]

Today I learned......

This is that day your science teacher told you it would benefit you not to sleep during class!

Refrigeration is an application of science in a mechanical forum. Whenever I hire someone, one of the first things I do is take them into our plant and explain to them the dangers in there and what is going on so they have a better understanding why we are so particular about things.

That's just the plant, for a building you also have to worry about hvac, and understanding dew points will become your friend, but that's for another convo at another time (think Dallas in the playoffs ha)

 

[Sens Rule]

I have to say. 30+ years a fan. This is the only ice issue I can remember that cancelled a game. So the NHL must be good at ice. Biggest cancelled game is 1990 Bruins in Cup finals. Or was it 1988? Power failure in Cup finals. Really embarrassing.

 

[Whileee]

I'm more concerned about the fact that some rinks serve up consistently bad ice. That's unacceptable.

 

[Brainiac]

Yep, no AC...

Nice catch.

I was looking at the picture, thinking something was wrong with the no AC statement. But yeah, my brain is slow.

 

[cptjeff]

Wow. What a beautiful facility. I would love to skate there. I love quirky arenas, and with an A/C system this would be perfect

It's indeed quite beautiful, and architecturally historic- the first permanent structure to be held up entirely by tension, IIRC. The walls support no weight, hence all the windows. However, no A/C, and I'm pretty sure it hasn't had an ice plant in years.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Thanks.

We appreciate the information.

What we have learned in this particular situation is that it has been said that it was a refrigerant leak (freon specifically was mentioned - I wonder if there is an EPA fine for leaking freon like that), and that it was repaired, but they could not cool the ice in time for the game to start.

Also, it has been reported here that the ice at this arena has been poor for a long time. That might mean there has been a small leak for a while, and this is the first time that the leak spread or expanded, and a true 'fix' was required.

Would that explanation make sense?

Not quite given the legitimate history of what's gone on. From the time the Arena opened in 1999 until 2011, PNC Arena had one gentleman who was the building superintendent/ice technician, Donnie "Donnie Mac" MacMillian. The guy was well known for being a perfectionist when it came to the ice surface, to the point where he lived in a motor home in the parking lot so that he could go into the Arena in the middle of the night to check on the ice. Under his tenure, PNC had a great reputation for its ice, got kudos for even having better ice than Rexall in the 2006 Stanley Cup Finals, Crosby has been quoted as really liking the surface, etc. During that time the only time complaints cropped up about the ice being subpar was on days when there was a quick changeover (an NC State basketball game or some other event in the afternoon and a hockey game that evening).

Then, in 2011, MacMillian died suddenly and David Wescott was brought in. It was under Wescott that the ice quality started to decline (at least that's my impression based on the number of comments I started to see crop up based on our ice surface) and, in 2013 he was replaced by Jared Dupre, who had interned under MacMillian. Under Dupre the ice surface hasn't gotten back the reputation it had under MacMillian, but I think the general agreement is that it wasn't as bad as it was under Wescott.

So in sum, no, the issue hasn't been "a long time." It was great ice for the first 12 years the arena was in operation, bad (but not he worst) ice for 2 years, and then OK ice for the last 3.

It's a loaded question. Freon systems have all sorts of sensors to them as well for leaks bc while ammonia is explosive and corrosive, it is lighter than oxygen and will dissipate into the atmosphere, freon is heavier than oxygen and if it leaks into a confined space (even w ventilation) can kill someone by essentially "pushing" all the oxygen out of that space.

To make life easier to understand with freon, realize that a freon rink system is essentially the same as a car ac system. Often times those car ac systems will lose some level of refrigerant but still cool to some degree, but slowly lose efficiency. As I mentioned in the previous post, the idea behind refrigeration isn't to cool a space, but to remove the heat from the space. Heat travels to the cold, and not the other way around. So when you have more heat in the building (people, lights, etc) you have more heat being absorbed into the sheet. It's possible they had a leak that was not detected somewhere and once the building filled up pregame the added heat caused the ice temps to increase bc the system could not keep up at that point. Hence repair job and hoping the temps would come down fast enough. Remember, when you car ac fails it can happen slowly, and you don't fully notice it until that day it's 98 degrees outside.

I'm not making an excuse for RBC center, but I would be shocked if that building in particular did not have up to date safety and detection equipment. I personally met the former czar of ice for that building who now trains staff for many nhl and ahl rinks as well as all other via a certification program for rink operators. He was known as mister by the book, so unless his replacement let the building go to complete poop, then I trust this is something that happened recently.

The other issue you need to look at is how much freon did they lose to the leak and how much did they have on hand to put back in. The cost of freon has risen dramatically recently (due to epa regulations and the outlawing of older freon and freon systems), and some systems are known as direct systems whereby the freon is in the whole system including the underfloor piping, as opposed to using another refrigerant in the under floor in conjuction with the freon. Those direct systems require a massive amount of freon...

I think that might be Wescott you're talking about.

 

[bleedblue94]

Not quite given the legitimate history of what's gone on. From the time the Arena opened in 1999 until 2011, PNC Arena had one gentleman who was the building superintendent/ice technician, Donnie "Donnie Mac" MacMillian. The guy was well known for being a perfectionist when it came to the ice surface, to the point where he lived in a motor home in the parking lot so that he could go into the Arena in the middle of the night to check on the ice. Under his tenure, PNC had a great reputation for its ice, got kudos for even having better ice than Rexall in the 2006 Stanley Cup Finals, Crosby has been quoted as really liking the surface, etc. During that time the only time complaints cropped up about the ice being subpar was on days when there was a quick changeover (an NC State basketball game or some other event in the afternoon and a hockey game that evening).

Then, in 2011, MacMillian died suddenly and David Wescott was brought in. It was under Wescott that the ice quality started to decline (at least that's my impression based on the number of comments I started to see crop up based on our ice surface) and, in 2013 he was replaced by Jared Dupre, who had interned under MacMillian. Under Dupre the ice surface hasn't gotten back the reputation it had under MacMillian, but I think the general agreement is that it wasn't as bad as it was under Wescott.

So in sum, no, the issue hasn't been "a long time." It was great ice for the first 12 years the arena was in operation, bad (but not he worst) ice for 2 years, and then OK ice for the last 3.



I think that might be Wescott you're talking about.

Correct, and although I agree that reports of the ice quality suffered some under wescott (I don't agree with his views/applications of temp/humidity/dew point on buildings and theorize this could be the cause), he was/is a nut bag for having fail safes in place and above all safety (remember he was one of the first to make his zamboni drivers wear helmets, crazy) so I doubt this has been an ongoing issue for a long time.

Based on the real safety dangers freon provides internally, I would be shocked if they had a (general) setup that would not detect a leak internally very quickly. If it was a leak outside at the condenser then there would be little to no chance of a quick repair unless they got extremely lucky and it was an exposed pipe on the exterior of the condenser or on one of the top loops of the internal condenser coil.

Again, educated speculation here...

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Correct, and although I agree that reports of the ice quality suffered some under wescott (I don't agree with his views/applications of temp/humidity/dew point on buildings and theorize this could be the cause), he was/is a nut bag for having fail safes in place and above all safety (remember he was one of the first to make his zamboni drivers wear helmets, crazy) so I doubt this has been an ongoing issue for a long time.

Based on the real safety dangers freon provides internally, I would be shocked if they had a (general) setup that would not detect a leak internally very quickly. If it was a leak outside at the condenser then there would be little to no chance of a quick repair unless they got extremely lucky and it was an exposed pipe on the exterior of the condenser or on one of the top loops of the internal condenser coil.

Again, educated speculation here...

Educated and enlightening - thanks for your contributions here! And your thoughts on where Wescott might have gone wrong in his management of the ice. IIRC prior to coming to us he had worked a good bit in FL and I seem to recall his being surprised that the climate up here wasn't exactly what he was expecting (I think he may have fallen into that trap of "Oh, it's the Sunbelt! 60-70 degrees and humid even in winter, right?" Well, not exactly...Today's 33 with a high of 45. Tomorrow the high's 55. Last week was in the 30s most of the week).

Would it be out of the realm to speculate that what happened yesterday was

1. Teams took their morning skate and complained about the quality of the ice surface - unbeknownst at the time a part has failed?
2. After morning skates conclude and before the game, Dupre/Arena facilities team begin looking to isolate cause of problem
3. 15-20 minutes before warmups, the part in question breaks but good and perhaps an alarm goes off indicating a freon leak and helping isolate what's broken
4. ~7:30 PM - Part's repaired, freon begins being pumped into the system to replace what's been lost
5. ~8:30 PM - Game canceled as the ice isn't cooling fast enough to make a 9:30 PM start possible

For what it's worth, the team is definitely trying to compensate the fans well for this. I got an e-mail last night outlining what fans who attended will get for their troubles:

• A rescheduled game date has yet to be announced by the NHL.
• Your original ticket for tonight’s game will be valid for the rescheduled game vs. Detroit. No exchange will be necessary.
• Additionally, we will be providing you a bonus voucher that will be redeemable for any remaining regular season home game (excluding 12/23, 12/30, 1/20).
• We will also be offering STM Appreciation Game concession pricing at the re-scheduled Detroit Red Wings game.
• Parking- Your parking pass from tonight’s game (VIP, PG, P, and G) will be accepted at the rescheduled game.

Edit - per the News and Observer, the problem

...was first discovered at 6 p.m. that a broken seal on the main compressor that operates the ice chiller was allowing freon to leak, causing the temperature of the ice to rise.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Educated and enlightening - thanks for your contributions here!

Seconded. This is a topic that even hockey fans don't usually know very well other than at a superficial level. It's awesome to have someone here who's able to speak to it in accurate detail.

 

[bleedblue94]

Educated and enlightening - thanks for your contributions here! And your thoughts on where Wescott might have gone wrong in his management of the ice. IIRC prior to coming to us he had worked a good bit in FL and I seem to recall his being surprised that the climate up here wasn't exactly what he was expecting (I think he may have fallen into that trap of "Oh, it's the Sunbelt! 60-70 degrees and humid even in winter, right?" Well, not exactly...Today's 33 with a high of 45. Tomorrow the high's 55. Last week was in the 30s most of the week).

Would it be out of the realm to speculate that what happened yesterday was

1. Teams took their morning skate and complained about the quality of the ice surface - unbeknownst at the time a part has failed?
2. After morning skates conclude and before the game, Dupre/Arena facilities team begin looking to isolate cause of problem
3. 15-20 minutes before warmups, the part in question breaks but good and perhaps an alarm goes off indicating a freon leak and helping isolate what's broken
4. ~7:30 PM - Part's repaired, freon begins being pumped into the system to replace what's been lost
5. ~8:30 PM - Game canceled as the ice isn't cooling fast enough to make a 9:30 PM start possible

For what it's worth, the team is definitely trying to compensate the fans well for this. I got an e-mail last night outlining what fans who attended will get for their troubles:

• A rescheduled game date has yet to be announced by the NHL.
• Your original ticket for tonight’s game will be valid for the rescheduled game vs. Detroit. No exchange will be necessary.
• Additionally, we will be providing you a bonus voucher that will be redeemable for any remaining regular season home game (excluding 12/23, 12/30, 1/20).
• We will also be offering STM Appreciation Game concession pricing at the re-scheduled Detroit Red Wings game.
• Parking- Your parking pass from tonight’s game (VIP, PG, P, and G) will be accepted at the rescheduled game.

Agree on Wescott, honestly I think he is very full of himself and generally doesn't seem to like to admit when he's wrong or doesn't have an answer, however I stand by my comments that he is a safety first guy, so I expect there were proper alarms to show a leak if it were internal.

I don't disagree with your timeline, but would stress this idea of "broken part" may not be accurate since a leak could just as well be a seal or weld giving out. Again, depending on the nature of the leak and the amount of freon lost they may have been scrambling to get enough back to the arena to compensate and get levels back to where they were needed. This potential delay along with a building full of people most certainly contributed to the game being postponed due to needing time for the temps to drop.

I don't fault the league for waiting as long as they could to try to get the game in, and honestly I don't think anyone should. They probably thought they could get the temps down fast enough, but it didn't happen. If any of you have skated on high 20s ice you know it is miserable and very dangerous. We had a rubber impeller bushing sheer on a brine pump once and the system gave no indication of an issue until I caught the ice temps rising. Everything was doing what it was suppose to, except the brine was not being moved through the flooring. We immediately dropped our building air temps and shut off all lighting to take any and all heat load off the ice. It took nearly 2hrs for the plant to recover. Remember, you are dealing with a factor referred to as "thermal lag" when dealing with the removal of heat from the ice sheet. It is not an instantaneous thing. The heat is "attacking" the top level of the ice, while the brine is removing it from the bottom of the ice. Nhl buildings require 1.5" of ice but some run up to 2" and that takes time to recondition.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Agree on Wescott, honestly I think he is very full of himself and generally doesn't seem to like to admit when he's wrong or doesn't have an answer, however I stand by my comments that he is a safety first guy, so I expect there were proper alarms to show a leak if it were internal.

I don't disagree with your timeline, but would stress this idea of "broken part" may not be accurate since a leak could just as well be a seal or weld giving out. Again, depending on the nature of the leak and the amount of freon lost they may have been scrambling to get enough back to the arena to compensate and get levels back to where they were needed. This potential delay along with a building full of people most certainly contributed to the game being postponed due to needing time for the temps to drop.

I don't fault the league for waiting as long as they could to try to get the game in, and honestly I don't think anyone should. They probably thought they could get the temps down fast enough, but it didn't happen. If any of you have skated on high 20s ice you know it is miserable and very dangerous. We had a rubber impeller bushing sheer on a brine pump once and the system gave no indication of an issue until I caught the ice temps rising. Everything was doing what it was suppose to, except the brine was not being moved through the flooring. We immediately dropped our building air temps and shut off all lighting to take any and all heat load off the ice. It took nearly 2hrs for the plant to recover. Remember, you are dealing with a factor referred to as "thermal lag" when dealing with the removal of heat from the ice sheet. It is not an instantaneous thing. The heat is "attacking" the top level of the ice, while the brine is removing it from the bottom of the ice. Nhl buildings require 1.5" of ice but some run up to 2" and that takes time to recondition.

Again, just trying to use the terminology that I recall Waddell using last night - not that he's into the nuts and bolts of these systems (no pun intended) and was probably getting a high level summary from Dupre/whomever was fixing it. Per the edit I made, it was, indeed, a seal that failed on the main compressor. For what it's worth, I do believe they had the LEDs over the ice turned down low (not off, but the arena was a little darker than it usually is prior to a game) so it seems like they were trying what they could to help matters.

And yeah, agree again on Wescott. They did an interview with him not too long after he took over (can't find it on Canesvision anymore) and he seemed a little cocky, as I recall. Still, he's got an excellent resume and I wouldn't be surprised if his departure was more to start his consulting firm than it was about any problems with the ice at PNC.

 

[bethylfan]

Someone who flew in for DET@CAR deserved our pity whether the game was played or not.

This post wins.

 

[bleedblue94]

Seconded. This is a topic that even hockey fans don't usually know very well other than at a superficial level. It's awesome to have someone here who's able to speak to it in accurate detail.

Thanks, I know this site is full of enthusiastic people that love the sport of various ages and backgrounds, but I think you gain a lot understanding what happens in these buildings.

 

[bleedblue94]

Again, just trying to use the terminology that I recall Waddell using last night - not that he's into the nuts and bolts of these systems (no pun intended) and was probably getting a high level summary from Dupre/whomever was fixing it. Per the edit I made, it was, indeed, a seal that failed on the main compressor. For what it's worth, I do believe they had the LEDs over the ice turned down low (not off, but the arena was a little darker than it usually is prior to a game) so it seems like they were trying what they could to help matters.

And yeah, agree again on Wescott. They did an interview with him not too long after he took over (can't find it on Canesvision anymore) and he seemed a little cocky, as I recall. Still, he's got an excellent resume and I wouldn't be surprised if his departure was more to start his consulting firm than it was about any problems with the ice at PNC.

Yeah Waddell needed to come out and be the spokesman on such a crappy situation. I am glad that he did it rather than forcing a tech in front of the media.

For the general public "broken part" is probably easier for getting the idea across, it just drives me nuts bc it creates an illusion much like the tweets last night about "ice making machine" that this is a simple situation when in reality it is not.

If it was one of the main seal on the comp then there is no way it failed or was caught 15 mins prior to the game and they actually thought they would be able to play. Most likely the issue happened earlier in the day and repairs were underway during the day. Based on the nature of these plants, machines and freon I am sure they thought they could get the seal replaced and have the system ready to go for game time, but the ice temps just would not recover with all the ambient heat in the building.

I will post some pics shortly to help you guys understand some of whats involved here...

 

[Taak19]

Yeah Waddell needed to come out and be the spokesman on such a crappy situation. I am glad that he did it rather than forcing a tech in front of the media.

For the general public "broken part" is probably easier for getting the idea across, it just drives me nuts bc it creates an illusion much like the tweets last night about "ice making machine" that this is a simple situation when in reality it is not.

If it was one of the main seal on the comp then there is no way it failed or was caught 15 mins prior to the game and they actually thought they would be able to play. Most likely the issue happened earlier in the day and repairs were underway during the day. Based on the nature of these plants, machines and freon I am sure they thought they could get the seal replaced and have the system ready to go for game time, but the ice temps just would not recover with all the ambient heat in the building.

I will post some pics shortly to help you guys understand some of whats involved here...

In addition - the NHL is very strict when it comes to ice temps. If it wasn't within their parameters then they weren't going to play.

 

[bleedblue94]

In addition - the NHL is very strict when it comes to ice temps. If it wasn't within their parameters then they weren't going to play.

Exactly, I stated this earlier. This is not only a quality issue but a safety issue that I'm sure is part of their cba with the players...

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Exactly, I stated this earlier. This is not only a quality issue but a safety issue that I'm sure is part of their cba with the players...

i would be shocked if it was not

 

[jgatie]

For the record, Boston Garden had fog in May when the lights went out DURING a game against the Oilers.

And if you couldn't tell from contextual clues, yes, it was the Stanley Cup Finals, game 4. They suspended the 3-3 tied game after playing about half of it, and moved the next game, which finished the series, to Edmonton. They would have replayed it in its entirety if necessary in Boston as the last game of the series, but Boston lost the series 4-0-1...so, no, it wasn't a sweep. Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were no refunds for the Boston fans who only got to enjoy 30 minutes of hockey.

Ahh yes, the Night The Lights Went Out in The Garden. Started with a forced warm up so that the players bodies could help dissipate the fog (probably due to the earlier Celtics/Pistons game). Ended with a blackout due to a transformer overload (Garden lore states that the insulation on the outside of the transformer connections was gnawed away by the legendary massive Garden rats)

This is going to **** some of you off, but the fact you keep referring to it as an "ice machine" shows none of you know what you're talking about. All these rinks rely on COMPRESSORS to remove the heat from the ice surface. You aren't making the ice cold, so much as removing the heat that the ice absorbs from the ambient air. Most of these builds rely on ammonia/brine systems which use ammonia as the primary refrigerant that the compressors pressurize causing various phase and pressure changes as it loops to the condensor, into the chiller, and back to the compressors. The brine is circulated through the chiller as well, much like a heat exchanger and is pumped through the under floor piping essentially drawing the heat out of the sheet and bringing it to the chiller where the heat is tranfered to the ammonia and then circulated out the condensing unit (in that area almost certainly an evaporative condenser) and released.

Thank you! Thank you! Spent my late High School and early college years as an all around rink rat/employee at the oldest indoor facility still used for hockey in the world (Matthews Arena). Did everything from specific gravity tests on the brine, to time clock, to catwalk light changes, to floor bull gang. If we could keep that old barn running for 100+ years, 18 years is nothing.

And yes, I too was cringing at the words "ice machine".

 

[bleedblue94]

From the phili plant room. Sorry these are bad pics that don't do it any justice:

Main control panel

Overview shot of their three compressors

Overview shot of some of the piping for the underfloor brine

 

[bleedblue94]

Thank you! Thank you! Spent my late High School and early college years as an all around rink rat/employee at the oldest indoor facility still used for hockey in the world (Matthews Arena). Did everything from specific gravity tests on the brine, to time clock, to catwalk light changes, to floor bull gang. If we could keep that old barn running for 100+ years, 18 years is nothing.

And yes, I too was cringing at the words "ice machine".

I'm glad someone here could share my pain!!

Running rinks is a thankless job...

 

[Stickpucker]

This sounds a lot like when the ECHL Raleigh Icecaps played at 50 y/o Dorton Arena in the 90's. Dorton to my knowledge had no A/C system back then and the outside of the building was nothing but glass windows. Sometimes the sun would shine right onto the ice causing fog-like conditions.

Good times.

This is Dorton Arena inside and out FWIW. Yes they played Hockey here.

I wonder what other great marvels that architect designed.

I've also got to dig around and see if I still have any ice caps stuff

 

[jgatie]

I'm glad someone here could share my pain!!

Running rinks is a thankless job...

Yeah, but you get a lot of free ice time! I actually started seeing what it was like running a rink back when I was 5. My brother's best friend's Dad owned the local rink. I used to get recruited twice a year to skate down the ice when they were building it up. That's the old fashioned way of marking up the ice in order to make it opaque. He'd get a dozen of us to skate it down in between each layer of water. We'd come home exhausted and (sometimes) covered in line paint if we were not careful.

Nowadays they use decals and machines. We were a lot cheaper labor.