Canes/Wings Postponed after ice cooling issue

[CanadienShark]

There was an NC State basketball game on Sunday. And what are you wanting them to test, precisely?

Well assuming there was nothing immediately prior to the game, I would've thought they'd have made sure the ice was good at least a day in advance. If it wasn't, try to cancel the game sooner. Maybe they were pressed for time though. Or maybe making the ice just takes forever. I won't pretend to be an expert, just a little curious.

 

[Tom Polakis]

Not NHL, but I mentioned this situation over lunch to a coworker and she said she went to a Washington Nationals game last year which was cancelled due to the stadium lights failing.

Good thing that's never happened in an important game like the Super Bowl or something.

 

[aemoreira1981]

Not NHL, but I mentioned this situation over lunch to a coworker and she said she went to a Washington Nationals game last year which was cancelled due to the stadium lights failing.

The thing is, when you're dealing with mechanical systems it's only a matter of time before something like this happens. No matter how well you maintain the equipment, there's always a chance of failure.

In MLB, at the iteration of Yankee Stadium opened in 1923 and closed in 2008, in the 1998 season, a few games were postponed because of problems with the structure and a few more were moved to Queens at Shea Stadium.

 

[HisIceness]

Wow. What a beautiful facility. I would love to skate there. I love quirky arenas, and with an A/C system this would be perfect

You would have to build a time machine then, I'm pretty certain all the equipment needed to make and maintain ice left when the Icecaps did in 1998.

I believe Dorton Arena was never really built with Ice Hockey, or ice in general in mind, and when the Icecaps started in 1990-91 the arena had some kind of generator that barely produced playable ice. The owners either didn't want to pay the money necessary to build pipes and whatever other equipment needed to properly make ice, or they didn't have the time as the arena was also hosting events like concerts and the circus. I also seem to recall they ended up ordering some kind of mat from a catalog so the sun would not beat down on the ice. I also seem to recall at least once the building either got hit by lightning or suffered a power failure during a storm and the ice came really close to melting. Someone like Tarheel or GP will have to confirm that as they probably have more knowledge than I do on the subject.

I think the owners were trying to do everything they could on the cheap because the Icecaps were the first Hockey team in the city and the general assumption seemed to be that they would not last in Raleigh past 1995 or so. For those that don't know, Raleigh and the Triangle is very much an ACC region first, everything else second. This was even more so 25 years ago. The thought of an Ice Hockey team, even an ECHL team, succeeding in Raleigh was laughed at.


I did a paper about the history of Hockey in NC for a college class once and I remember finding articles from the early 90s about how opposing teams hated playing in Raleigh because of how bad the ice was, but the Icecaps players themselves more or less adapted to it and the bad quality and everything else that attributed to it, such as players having to skate around in circles to clear the fog and the ice crews having to clean the rink glass with squeegees, kind of added to the allure of what was ECHL hockey in the 90's.

 

[HisIceness]

While doing some digging I found the following. This happened during a Washington Bullets game in 1993.

The start of the game was delayed 52 minutes because of a water problem. Not the rain from the outside, but condensation from the ice rink underneath the wooden floor.

The Bullets-Magic game was the third contest in the arena yesterday. Earlier, there was a college doubleheader, Georgetown-Virgina State and West Virginia-Virgina Tech.

Bullets public relations director Matt Williams said the warmth generated by the repeated opening and closing of the arena doors for the three games, as well as the body heat from the Bullets sellout crowd, caused the ice below the court to melt.

To correct the condition, the arena air conditioners were turned on "full blast," according to Williams. The floor also was swabbed with towels attached to dust brooms.

Once the game started there was occasional slippage on the sidelines. And at 2:32 left in the half, a portion of the electricity vanished and the game continued under reduced power. The cause of the outage was not immediately known.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...f9b-bf79-c221848160b5/?utm_term=.b5ed15ad273c

Not NHL but multi-purpose arenas with Ice rinks do sometimes have something like this happen.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Well assuming there was nothing immediately prior to the game, I would've thought they'd have made sure the ice was good at least a day in advance. If it wasn't, try to cancel the game sooner. Maybe they were pressed for time though. Or maybe making the ice just takes forever. I won't pretend to be an expert, just a little curious.

So first of all (and I don't mean to get too basic here) but based on what you're saying I think you might have the impression that the ice is made fresh anytime there's another event preceding a hockey game. That's not the case at all and I don't know of any multipurpose arena offhand that does that. What'll happen is that a thermal blanket, essentially, is put over the ice and then flooring put down over that (the hardwood for basketball or some other surface. Below is a timelapse Youtube of a quick changeover at PNC).



The only time during the season that the ice is melted down is for the circus (they have to access holes in the concrete floor the ice surface is built on top of to serve as anchor points for the trapeze and other equipment). When the circus is finished they'll then put down a new ice surface (which is why teams go on the road when Ringling Brothers comes through). As for how long it takes to build, I'm sure bleedblue can give an exact time but I think the figure I read was that under MacMillian, it took 15 to 20 hours, not counting the time to put down paint.

So the bad ice Buffalo and Washington experienced was more likely just a ton of events going on in the last two weeks:

December 8 - Disney on Ice (which uses a warmer ice temperature than you'd use for hockey)
December 9 - Disney on Ice
December 10 - Disney on Ice (3 shows)
December 11 - Disney on Ice (2 shows)
December 12 - No events
December 13 - Hurricanes vs. Canucks
December 14 - Trans-Siberian Orchestra
December 15 - NC State basketball (vs. Appalachian State)
December 16 - NC State graduation (AM); Hurricanes vs. Capitals (PM)
December 17 - Hurricanes vs. Sabres
December 18 - NC State basketball (vs. Fairfield)
December 19 - Hurricanes vs. Red Wings

So that's 15 events in the space of 12 days along with 7 configuration changes (I'm counting going from figure skating to hockey as a configuration change). Again, my thought is that the poor ice for the Capitals and Sabres games was more likely from from there being a ton of events going on along with some rather drastic ambient weather changes rather than this broken seal.

 

[CanadienShark]

So first of all (and I don't mean to get too basic here) but based on what you're saying I think you might have the impression that the ice is made fresh anytime there's another event preceding a hockey game. That's not the case at all and I don't know of any multipurpose arena offhand that does that. What'll happen is that a thermal blanket, essentially, is put over the ice and then flooring put down over that (the hardwood for basketball or some other surface. Below is a timelapse Youtube of a quick changeover at PNC).



The only time during the season that the ice is melted down is for the circus (they have to access holes in the concrete floor the ice surface is built on top of to serve as anchor points for the trapeze and other equipment). When the circus is finished they'll then put down a new ice surface (which is why teams go on the road when Ringling Brothers comes through). As for how long it takes to build, I'm sure bleedblue can give an exact time but I think the figure I read was that under MacMillian, it took 15 to 20 hours, not counting the time to put down paint.

So the bad ice Buffalo experienced was more likely just a ton of events going on at (there was a game the previous night against Washington, another NC State basketball game the night before that, Trans-Siberian Orchestra the night before THAT, and another hockey game the night before that). The Red Wings game was literally the 7th night in a row PNC had an event and was the 5th configuration change in as many nights. Compounding things to an extent, Disney on Ice was here from the 8th through the 11th and that uses a different ice temperature (figure skating uses warmer ice than hockey). So the ice for the Washington/Buffalo game was likely just poor ice from there being a ton of events going on along with some rather drastic ambient weather changes rather than this broken seal.

Do we have a *mind-blown* emote here? I think you understood me correctly.

Thanks for the lengthy response. I honestly had no idea how it was all done. So basically what you're saying is that all the traffic from previous nights probably just wore out the machine/ice surface? If so, does that mean the whole system needs to be replaced, or can you simply let it "cool down" for a while?

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Do we have a *mind-blown* emote here? I think you understood me correctly.

Thanks for the lengthy response. I honestly had no idea how it was all done. So basically what you're saying is that all the traffic from previous nights probably just wore out the machine/ice surface? If so, does that mean the whole system needs to be replaced, or can you simply let it "cool down" for a while?

I slightly edited my response to outline just how many events were going on and again, bleedblue, feel free to correct any knowledge gaps I'm having here, but I don't think the number of events is what caused that seal to break, just what might have led to the ice being poor for the Sabres and Caps games. They wouldn't have to replace the system or anything like that. The fix to what happened last night was to replace that seal and recharge the freon and let the ice cool back down to the proper temperature - that wouldn't have happened in time to meet the NHL's 22 hour rule and that's what led to the cancellation.

 

[CanadienShark]

I slightly edited my response to outline just how many events were going on and again, bleedblue, feel free to correct any knowledge gaps I'm having here, but I don't think the number of events is what caused that seal to break, just what might have led to the ice being poor for the Sabres and Caps games. They wouldn't have to replace the system or anything like that. The fix to what happened last night was to replace that seal and recharge the freon and let the ice cool back down to the proper temperature - that wouldn't have happened in time to meet the NHL's 22 hour rule and that's what led to the cancellation.

Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks.

 

[talkinaway]

Here's another time lapse from TD Garden. Their crew called the "Bull Gang" typically has to do this at least once a year on Black Friday for a hockey-basketball doubleheader. Ideally, Bruins fans like to have the Friday holiday matinee, but this year we had a rare 7:30 PM start because the Rangers took our TV slot. Seems to me hockey-basketball is preferable to the other way around in terms of ice quality. We normally start our games at 7, but I guess the extra half hour is an insurance policy.



Here's a bit of trivia: forward Matt Grzelcyk played for Boston University, and now plays in the AHL for the Providene Bruins. He made his NHL debut in Pittsburgh this year before playing a second game in Boston and then being put back in the AHL. Here's the connection: his father John works on the bull gang.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I believe Dorton Arena was never really built with Ice Hockey, or ice in general in mind, and when the Icecaps started in 1990-91 the arena had some kind of generator that barely produced playable ice. The owners either didn't want to pay the money necessary to build pipes and whatever other equipment needed to properly make ice, or they didn't have the time as the arena was also hosting events like concerts and the circus. I also seem to recall they ended up ordering some kind of mat from a catalog so the sun would not beat down on the ice. I also seem to recall at least once the building either got hit by lightning or suffered a power failure during a storm and the ice came really close to melting. Someone like Tarheel or GP will have to confirm that as they probably have more knowledge than I do on the subject.

Man, being the 90s ECHL I wouldn't be surprised if they laid down a grid of ice cube trays and sprayed it with a garden hose.

So the bad ice Buffalo and Washington experienced was more likely just a ton of events going on in the last two weeks:

December 8 - Disney on Ice (which uses a warmer ice temperature than you'd use for hockey)
December 9 - Disney on Ice
December 10 - Disney on Ice (3 shows)
December 11 - Disney on Ice (2 shows)

On top of everything else, unnoticed an unusual pile of snow in the PNC Arena parking lot after the Caps game. Not the pile you usually see from the zambonis, but a new one. Unlike your typical zamboni shavings, it had a chalky white residue as if someone had painted directly onto the ice surface. I asked a crew guy about it and he said it was from Disney on Ice.

I don't know anything specific about that event and how it impacts the ice. But it makes me wonder if a significant layer was damaged and had to be stripped away, and there were other events preventing a full melt-down and restoration of the sheet, perhaps that had something to do with the substandard quality later in the week. As opposed to (or possibly disguising?) a failure in the cooling system.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Man, being the 90s ECHL I wouldn't be surprised if they laid down a grid of ice cube trays and sprayed it with a garden hose.



On top of everything else, unnoticed an unusual pile of snow in the PNC Arena parking lot after the Caps game. Not the pile you usually see from the zambonis, but a new one. Unlike your typical zamboni shavings, it had a chalky white residue as if someone had painted directly onto the ice surface. I asked a crew guy about it and he said it was from Disney on Ice.

I don't know anything specific about that event and how it impacts the ice. But it makes me wonder if a significant layer was damaged and had to be stripped away, and there were other events preventing a full melt-down and restoration of the sheet, perhaps that had something to do with the substandard quality later in the week. As opposed to (or possibly disguising?) a failure in the cooling system.

Maybe that's a layer they put down over the normal ice sheet and paint white so as to mask the lines/ads on the normal sheet? I'm assuming that the Disney on Ice cast isn't skating on the normal sheet ("Mommy, what are those dots Elsa's skating over?") so that seems like it could be a middle ground.

 

[Lempo]

The thing is, when you're dealing with mechanical systems it's only a matter of time before something like this happens. No matter how well you maintain the equipment, there's always a chance of failure.

And if the tech happens to hold, then the team skates onto the ice...

 

[jgatie]

Here's another time lapse from TD Garden. Their crew called the "Bull Gang" typically has to do this at least once a year on Black Friday for a hockey-basketball doubleheader. Ideally, Bruins fans like to have the Friday holiday matinee, but this year we had a rare 7:30 PM start because the Rangers took our TV slot. Seems to me hockey-basketball is preferable to the other way around in terms of ice quality. We normally start our games at 7, but I guess the extra half hour is an insurance policy.


Here's a bit of trivia: forward Matt Grzelcyk played for Boston University, and now plays in the AHL for the Providene Bruins. He made his NHL debut in Pittsburgh this year before playing a second game in Boston and then being put back in the AHL. Here's the connection: his father John works on the bull gang.

I was on the "Bull Gang" at Northeastern in High School and college. I guess "Bull Gang" is a generic term in the Boston area, probably because the name was made famous by the gang at the old and new Garden. Done a lot of hard jobs, but that was at the top. Each floor piece weighed 300 lbs, 2 guys on each, you had to move fast, and losing a finger was a distinct possibility. The fiber board insulation was large, unwieldy and cracked easily. Just a bad 3 hours anyway you look.

I'd also heard the famous parquet of the Celtics floor was even heavier, and at that time was falling apart. The finally renovated it for the new Garden.

 

[talkinaway]

So they've rescheduled the game for 3/27 at 7 PM EST in Carolina.

Buuuut...Detroit and Carolina also play in Carolina on 3/28. That's actually rare and a little bit cool. That isn't a problem, except for the fact that Detroit has a home game on 3/26, making a 3-in-3.

The obvious solution would be to push the second 3/28 game to 3/29. IMO, everything should be done to avoid a 3-in-3. I'm shocked they didn't announce this in the press release, but I'd be more shocked if they don't remedy Detroit's 3-in-3 issue. It's one thing when a rescheduled game happens in late March when there aren't the days to make up, but when you've got this much advance notice, the teams deserve better.

Also, OMG, hockey overload for full season Carolina STHs. Four games at home in a week? I love going to hockey games, but even I would have a tough time stomaching that.

 

[Tatar Shots]

Pretty dumb they are making Detroit play 3 nights in a row. How was their no other way to schedule the game?

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

nhl is punishing the wings for mike ilitch eating all our freon to sustain is frozen and lifeless corpse and is making them play 3 games in a row

only logical answer tbh imo

 

[talkinaway]

Pretty dumb they are making Detroit play 3 nights in a row. How was their no other way to schedule the game?

Scheduling relies on many things: Detroit being available, Carolina being available, mandated NHL days off (Christmas Eve, Christmas, Boxing Day, Centnnial and Winter Classics, new 5-day bye week) and PNC being available. Here's the conflict breakdown (not all conflicts listed when there are multiple conflicts):

December:
21-23: CAR 3-in-3, CAR game, CAR game.
24-26: NHL Holiday
27-29: DET game, DET 3-in-3, DET game.
30-31: CAR game, CAR game

January:
1-2: Outdoor games
3-10: Carolina hellscape.
10-26: Detroit hellscape.
27-29: PNC events (Comedy Get Down, Monster Jam x2)
30: Uh, I found a day, but can it be turned over from Monster Jam?
31: CAR game

February:
1: PNC event (College basketball)
2-4: CAR 3-in-3, CAR game, CAR game
5: DET 3-in-3
6: DET 4-in-5
7-12: DET mini-hellscape
12-16: CAR bye week
17-21: CAR game, CAR 3-in-3, CAR game, CAR 3-in-3, CAR game
22-27: DET extra-large bye week. Six days instead of agreed upon 5 days. I don't know which day is not part of the bye week, but for the benefit of the doubt, let's say it's 27. In that case, 27 is a CAR 3-in-3.
28: DET game

March:
1: CAR game
2-24: DET hellscape. Every free day for DET makes a 4-in-5 or a 3-in-3.
25: CAR game
26-30: DET game, DET 3-in-3, DET game, DET 3-in-3, DET game
31: CAR 3-in-3

April:
1-9: Carolina hellscape
10: Even if they extended the regular season by 1 day, it's 3-in-3 for CAR.

So, in short, there's only one day, 1/30, that causes absolutely no conflicts. And even that's questionable - I imagine Monster Jam must be a helluva cleanup afterwards.

Perhaps a second day could be counted if 2/22 were allowed as a non-bye week day, because the bye week is only supposed to be 5 days long. Or maybe Detroit gets an extra day off because their bye week crosses the weekend, unlike some (most?) teams.

And, actually, looking at the schedule, my original idea of pushing the 3/28 game to 3/29 to avoid a Detroit 3-in-3 doesn't really work, because it makes a Detroit 4-in-5. Honestly, I don't know which is better, but the "day off" for Detroit would just be them stuck in Carolina. And doing that simultaneously creates a 4-in-5 for Carolina.

I guess the NHL decided to give only one team pain instead of both teams pain. And if you're going to have to do 3-in-3, at least there's no travel on each day.

 

[Claypool]

4 games in 5 days and 9 games in a 14 days total is too much for a team. They should have just tacked it on at the end of the season, and if either team makes the post-season, have them start on the second day the playoffs begin.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Pretty dumb they are making Detroit play 3 nights in a row. How was their no other way to schedule the game?

I'd guess Detroit opted for the double header over trying to reschedule it some other time. Less flights to Raleigh.

 

[These Are The Days]

I really don't understand all the crap people are giving the Hurricanes and PNC Arena. Issues can happen to anyone. A few years back the Lightning were playing a game against the Devils and the lights just outright stopped working. Some power came back but after several hours they called the game off and ordered it to be replayed at a later date.

File this under **** happens and move on. Especially considering the amount of venues PNC Arena hosts

 

[swimmer77]

And just because **** happens doesn't mean it has/had to happen either.

Don't know who or what or if anything is at fault and probably will never know but I'm not going to be so quick to say **** just happens either.

Sucks that the Red Wings take the brunt of **** happens. LOL

Logistical nightmare.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Should have gone no make up and just have the next game between CAR - DET worth double the points. Winner gets 4, loser gets 0 unless it ends in OT/SO then the loser gets 2. That game would be juicy man.

 

[Crosstraffic]

Here's another time lapse from TD Garden. Their crew called the "Bull Gang" typically has to do this at least once a year on Black Friday for a hockey-basketball doubleheader. Ideally, Bruins fans like to have the Friday holiday matinee, but this year we had a rare 7:30 PM start because the Rangers took our TV slot. Seems to me hockey-basketball is preferable to the other way around in terms of ice quality. We normally start our games at 7, but I guess the extra half hour is an insurance policy.



Here's a bit of trivia: forward Matt Grzelcyk played for Boston University, and now plays in the AHL for the Providene Bruins. He made his NHL debut in Pittsburgh this year before playing a second game in Boston and then being put back in the AHL. Here's the connection: his father John works on the bull gang.

Yeah, hockey-basketball makes for better ice, in the Forum days, Kings had Tuesday-Thursday-Saturdays for the most part. With the Clippers joining at Staples, the Kings get plenty of Saturday matinees that fans loathe and the play usually suffers for it.