Can you believe it has already been 15 years?

Fixxer

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I'm born a few weeks before he and Crosby. 33 now. For a hockey player, it's not a great view but it's not over yet.

Pierre Mcguire didn't agree with the pick at the time, said that with Theo and anyway, no need for a goalie. Things change fast.
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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For fun, here's the list of goalies picked in the first round in from 2006-2015. I didn't look at 2016-2020 because it's probably to early to judge those draft picks' careers.



The best goalie in that list is... Vasilevskiy? Bernier? Varlamov? That is a 10-year span in which not a single first round goalie pick can be said to have contributed meaningfully to a Stanley Cup win. Or to any Cup run really. So I state again; we're currently weak at every position except goalie... and that's what you want us to draft this year with our first round pick?

Actually, it's pretty funny how after 2005, it looks like teams started getting really scared to draft a goalie in the first round. :dunno:
Look, if you can build a team with Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Hull, Robitaille... I agree, you won't need much of a goalie. Even then though, it doesn't mean that goalies aren't worth first round picks. And notice that the Yzerman who was insanely good didn't sniff a cup until he was older and had a stacked team. Same thing with Mario Lemieux. Look what's happening to McDavid now.

There are now 32 teams and a handful of elite goalies. Odds are they aren't going to be on cup winning teams. It's very possible going forward that players of McDavid's caliber won't win cups. Even OV only managed one.

Using a cup wins to extrapolate first round picks doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's true elite goalies haven't won cups in recent years but for the most part they've been on pretty mediocre clubs. Quick was pretty fantastic before getting busted up so I'd count him as a big reason they won but those clubs were very good as well.

If we push your rationale to its conclusion then McDavid, Tavares and Karlsson aren't worth first round picks because they didn't win cups. It's absurd. Just as it's absurd to think that Price and Lundqvist aren't worth firsts.

Imagine if Lundqvist were on St Louis all those years. They'd have won a crap ton of cups. Imagine if we'd actually ADDED to the teams we had in the early 2010s with a good coach. We'd have won cups too. Lundqvist and Price elevated mediocre teams to places they never would've been without them.
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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Montreal's defensive game that year was actually above average, Price was just terrible (2nd last in GSAx) that year and the Habs couldn't score to save their life.
MTL


Price definitely had to play in front of some poor defensive teams over the years, but the 17/18 team wasn't one of them.
That was the year we brought in Alzner to replace Markov.

Our D roster that year:
Weber 16 games most of which he was injured.
Petry
Benn
Alzner
Lernout
Mete
Juulsen
Schlemko
Streit

One legit NHL blueliner and a bunch or rookies/scrubs.

We have been terrible in our own zone for years. We are okay at limiting shots overall but awful at limiting shots in close. That makes it even worse for a goalie's numbers because while the shots are fewer they are harder to stop. It absolutely kills the numbers.

The following year Price's numbers weren't good either until Weber came back and then his sv pctg took a huge bounce.

Again, goalies can make a huge difference. But there are limits. He took medicore/bad clubs and did well because there was at least some defensive support. But when you've got a guy like Benn on your first pairing you are toast. We were horrible that year.
 

Cole Caulifield

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I will always wonder what would have happened had Kreider not taken him out in the 2014 playoffs. Carey Price will go down as the winningest goalie for the Montreal Canadiens. It was a great draft pick. Hopefully lightning can strike twice and the pick in the 2020 draft will be as good as Price.

This statistic is devoid of meaning because :

-League changes to SO+OT to eliminate ties
-More games per season played because of rule changes (in the 50ies, in Plante's time, teams played 70 games per season for example)
-Some of our better goalies have played around 10 years with us instead of full careers (Roy, Dryden)

It has as much meaning as saying Ryan Miller is the winningest goalie of the Buffalo sabres with his 284 wins over Hasek's 234... clearly one is not like the other.
 
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Cole Caulifield

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First, your assertion is wrong.

Secondly, even if it wasn't, it's still flawed reasoning. Those same cup winners didn't need John Tavares to win those cups. Does that mean that he's not worthy of a first round selection?

It's absolutely insane to think that those goalies aren't worth 1st round picks. Dude, the odds of a player even making the NHL in the late first isn't all that great. Why they hell wouldn't you take a chance on a highly touted goalie? Makes absolutely zero sense to not take them.

It actually makes all the sense in the world. Here is the order at which players tend to be able to come in the NHL the fastest : Winger-Center-Dmen-Goalie. Goalies take by far the longest to develop. That means you get less bang for your buck on the pick. Kopitar has provided so much more bang for their bucks to the LA kings it's not even funny. For example, Price's first real good season as a starter for us was 2010-11, whereas Kopitar had already posted 285 pts in 318 reg season games by that time. And while Price was good in 2010-11 (5th in vezina votes), I'd say he was still not as valuable as a 6'3 ppg center at that point. The year after that price did nothing of note and was as interchangeable a piece as they come. So 7 years after the draft, Price had given us 1 top 5 vezina season, a solid rookie season, and a lot of growing pains aside from that while Kopitar was a full blown consistent ppg two way #1 center who could do it all.

And Price is an example of a goalie being picked in the first round who is a success.... If you look at goalies picked top 10 over the past 20 years, the miss rate is quite high. The odds are really against you big time when you select a goalie in a draft as opposed to a forward or even a dman. And that is because, as shown above, goalies are so far removed from their top potential that they're much harder to properly scout. It's just a bigger risk and crapshoot....

Then that's compounded by the fact that since 2005, players become UFAs much sooner. If your #1 pick has not given you a lot of quality years already by the time he's 25-27.... you're risking losing him to UFA. At the very least you lose your leverage and you're forced to overpay before you have actually seen him be a consistent performer for you.

Then you must consider the opportunity cost. There are more and more quality players available for each position. Consider the fact there are only 64 spots for goalies in the NHL. The quality at the position is increasing all the time, and it's not like teams can hoard goalies. You can only have 2 realistically (3 technically, but it's an untenable situation). It's well known that value of commodities are dictated by offer and demand. For goalies, the demand is low (64 spots as opposed to skaters 384 spots), and the offer is getting higher all the time with the talent pool of goalies getting deeper with less demarcation between the top and the bottom. That means goalies are low value assets in general compared to centers, wingers and dmen. Getting an elite #1 center is actually really freakin' hard... and even then, even if you get an O'reilly or Tavares... there's still a gap between getting that and a Malkin, Crosby, McDavid, Draisaitl, etc. Same thing but to a lesser degree with wingers. And you've said it yourself countless times, we need to tank to get those guys. The few times where we have a top 5 pick... we should really take that opportunity to draft the guys that you can't get otherwise. Because for example, we would have been way better off spending cap space on say a Halak + Lehner combo than having Price + some no name back up who can't hack it. It would have taken approximately the same cap space, and would provide more value because we would get 82 games of solid goaltending as opposed to 50-60 games. Not only that but then your goalies are in better shape for the playoffs, and you have a safety net in case of injuries.

And look, you may try to tell us with all the assurance in the world that it makes no sense not to draft a goalie in the frst round but the reality is that NHL teams have avoided drafting goalies in the first round in general over the past 15 years for exactly the reasons I mentionned above. I even heard Alain Chainey say on TV that many teams' GMs actually forbad drafting goalies with first round picks.

Drafting Price in the first round top 5 overall was akin to using your life savings on lottery tickets, coming out ahead by 100K and calling it an amazing decision. It was a stupid call, that turned out well... but where the odds of all of that happening weren't great.

But yeah, it's actually pretty dumb to draft a goalie with a first round pick in today's NHL.
 
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calder candidate

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I'm born a few weeks before he and Crosby. 33 now. For a hockey player, it's not a great view but it's not over yet.

Pierre Mcguire didn't agree with the pick at the time, said that with Theo and anyway, no need for a goalie. Things change fast.
Yes thing change fast, unfortunately we are still look for a elite #1C while Rask, Quick and Bishop were picked after Price, the issue isn’t only that we had Theo but it that we could have filled the position with a later pick. the difference between Price and Halak or Quick isn’t has significant has the difference between Kopitar and Plekanec or Danault... I’m looking for the clip but pretty sure the RDS guy said they should have drafted Kopitar.
 

beh3moth

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Give this guy a real team all these years and he'd be a first ballot HOFer. We're spoiled to have him play for us all these years, haters notwithstanding.
 

Fixxer

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Yes thing change fast, unfortunately we are still look for a elite #1C while Rask, Quick and Bishop were picked after Price, the issue isn’t only that we had Theo but it that we could have filled the position with a later pick. the difference between Price and Halak or Quick isn’t has significant has the difference between Kopitar and Plekanec or Danault... I’m looking for the clip but pretty sure the RDS guy said they should have drafted Kopitar.
I get what you mean, yeah. Price has been solid but he's not above the aforementioned competition. Drafting an elite C and finding a decent goalie could have been the option. If the Habs, being after Brule rumors were true, drafting Carey was a blessing. Price was surprised to be picked so early. One thing that was mentioned in Price's draft preview was about his rebound control. To me, that's his no.1 ability. Moving the puck is one thing that can backfire. When the puck hits Price, it goes to the right spot or it stops there. See how the backups handle the puck. Just the thought of it made me laugh. lol

I don't have it in French on RDS though.. but here's Pierre's comments...
 
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Non Player Canadiens

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Look, if you can build a team with Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Hull, Robitaille... I agree, you won't need much of a goalie. Even then though, it doesn't mean that goalies aren't worth first round picks. And notice that the Yzerman who was insanely good didn't sniff a cup until he was older and had a stacked team. Same thing with Mario Lemieux. Look what's happening to McDavid now.

There are now 32 teams and a handful of elite goalies. Odds are they aren't going to be on cup winning teams. It's very possible going forward that players of McDavid's caliber won't win cups. Even OV only managed one.

Using a cup wins to extrapolate first round picks doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's true elite goalies haven't won cups in recent years but for the most part they've been on pretty mediocre clubs. Quick was pretty fantastic before getting busted up so I'd count him as a big reason they won but those clubs were very good as well.

If we push your rationale to its conclusion then McDavid, Tavares and Karlsson aren't worth first round picks because they didn't win cups. It's absurd. Just as it's absurd to think that Price and Lundqvist aren't worth firsts.

Imagine if Lundqvist were on St Louis all those years. They'd have won a crap ton of cups. Imagine if we'd actually ADDED to the teams we had in the early 2010s with a good coach. We'd have won cups too. Lundqvist and Price elevated mediocre teams to places they never would've been without them.
Good post, ty.

One nitpick:

If we push your rationale to its conclusion then McDavid, Tavares and Karlsson aren't worth first round picks because they didn't win cups. It's absurd. Just as it's absurd to think that Price and Lundqvist aren't worth firsts.
I don't think this follows. Players like McDavid, Tavares and Karlsson (Top 5 centers, Top 5 D) have been winning the Cup every year.

But anyways I'm happy to move on at this point, I've said my peace. :cheers:
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Yes thing change fast, unfortunately we are still look for a elite #1C while Rask, Quick and Bishop were picked after Price, the issue isn’t only that we had Theo but it that we could have filled the position with a later pick. the difference between Price and Halak or Quick isn’t has significant has the difference between Kopitar and Plekanec or Danault... I’m looking for the clip but pretty sure the RDS guy said they should have drafted Kopitar.
Who’s to say Kopitar does anything if we draft him. Imagine him under Therrien...
 

calder candidate

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Who’s to say Kopitar does anything if we draft him. Imagine him under Therrien...

Kopitar was almost a pts per game as a rookie it not like he need lot of time to adjust or develop... I guess we never know what could have been but I don’t see how Therrien could of screw him up since he wasn’t the coach... Also Kopitar is a elite/dominant 200ft player not sure why any coach would have a issue with him...
 

NeptunesTrident

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This statistic is devoid of meaning because :

-League changes to SO+OT to eliminate ties
-More games per season played because of rule changes (in the 50ies, in Plante's time, teams played 70 games per season for example)
-Some of our better goalies have played around 10 years with us instead of full careers (Roy, Dryden)

It has as much meaning as saying Ryan Miller is the winningest goalie of the Buffalo sabres with his 284 wins over Hasek's 234... clearly one is not like the other.

Carey Price will be known as the winningest goalie in the Montreal Canadiens history. And for a #5 pick in the draft that's not a bad pick. These are the facts and they can't be denied. Someone will surpass his win totals one day; it's inevitable.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Kopitar was almost a pts per game as a rookie it not like he need lot of time to adjust or develop... I guess we never know what could have been but I don’t see how Therrien could of screw him up since he wasn’t the coach... Also Kopitar is a elite/dominant 200ft player not sure why any coach would have a issue with him...
Never underestimate our ability to underdevelop. :laugh:
 

mynamejeff420

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That was the year we brought in Alzner to replace Markov.

Our D roster that year:
Weber 16 games most of which he was injured.
Petry
Benn
Alzner
Lernout
Mete
Juulsen
Schlemko
Streit

One legit NHL blueliner and a bunch or rookies/scrubs.

We have been terrible in our own zone for years. We are okay at limiting shots overall but awful at limiting shots in close. That makes it even worse for a goalie's numbers because while the shots are fewer they are harder to stop. It absolutely kills the numbers.

The following year Price's numbers weren't good either until Weber came back and then his sv pctg took a huge bounce.

Again, goalies can make a huge difference. But there are limits. He took medicore/bad clubs and did well because there was at least some defensive support. But when you've got a guy like Benn on your first pairing you are toast. We were horrible that year.

Yes I realize the caliber of defensemen wasn't spectacular that year. But the fact is, Price faced 122.09 expected goals, but let in 148. He was a below average goalie based on how he performed (actually saying he was below average really oversells his performance, he was awful in 17/18, thus the 2nd to last place finish in GSAx), and the Habs weren't letting a ton of shots from in close. The Habs were good at limiting close (or high danger) shots. If you look at the heatmap I posted in my previous comment, you can see that Montreal's net front area was pretty blue, indicating a lack of shots in tight. As a team, Montreal allowed the 11th fewest high danger shots per 60 (according to Natural Stat Trick). All signs point to Montreal being an above average defensive team that year.

Just because those defensemen may not be great doesn't mean the team as a whole can collectively play good defense. Forwards play defense too. But for the record, of the 12 defensemen that played 50 EV minutes for Montreal that year, 7 of them put up above average defensive results, including 7 of the 8 players with the highest TOI (Petry, Alzner, Benn, Mete, Schlemko, Weber, and Davidson). Their worst defenders barely played. Now I'm not going to try and pretend Alzner was or is good, because he was still a net negative that year, but that was more due to being completely inept offensively. He was an effective shot supressor. Sure the defensemen that played that year lacked in terms of overall impact (the only good ones were Mete, Petry, and Weber [who only played 16 games]), but they didn't lack quality defenders.

upload_2020-8-1_23-53-55.png


That Habs team was bad because their goaltending failed them and they couldn't produce anything offensively. Price's struggles were not because the defense sucked. He was just bad.
 

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